In praise of how Brandon handles neuro-atypical characters

[Gabriele she/her]

Anyhow, the point is - a lot ASD people develop coping strategies that let them 'pass' as neurotypical by the time they reach adulthood.  So no, Renarin doesn't act like the autistic kids you know - because he's an autistic 20 year-old, not a preschooler, and he's adjusted his behavior to allow him to function in the world as much as possible.  If you look for it like that, it's a great deal more visible.

 

 

That's it. I have a mild form of autism about which I learned when I read about that stuff as an adult. Autism wasn't strong on the radar as it is now in the 60ies/70ies in Germany, so kids who didn't 'fit in' without displaying severe symptoms were never checked. I had to develop coping mechanisms without even knowing I did, and I managed to seem fairly normal over time. And by now I don't need any help because it's so much part of my personality that I don't want to change it, nor does it prevent me from holding a job, traveling and whatever. It's mostly small things that still make me aware I'm 'not normal'.

[leinton]

 

 

Do you think anyone really has an innate ability to comprehend social context, though?   I suspect this is something everyone has to learn, and it's just that some of us learn it faster than others.

 

There is a part of our brain that is used to determine facial expressions and facial recognition. The only thing we can see physically different in an autistic brain is that this section of the brain is underdeveloped. This is actually a very well studied part of the brain, because it can also happen as a result of injury. Face blindness came onto the radar of scientists when someone prominent got it from an injury to this part of the brain (I forget the details).

 

Essentially, when this part of the brain is damaged or underdeveloped, you cannot innately comprehend facial expressions. A baby will recognize their parents within the first six months of life. In fact, one of the earliest "tells" of autism is a child not enjoying peek-a-boo. 

 

Allistic people, who have this section of the brain, will subconsciously learn at very young ages what different facial expressions mean. An autistic person must go out of their way to learn what different expressions mean, and when they're learning they'll often seem to be emotionless or uncaring about it because instead of just innately understanding "oh this person is angry", they'll be reading expressions and body tells consciously and manually interpreting them and being like "hmm this person is likely angry". I understand that with a lot of practice it does become second nature, but the difference is allistic people start doing it at 6 months of age. Autistic people don't. Though some autistic people do start doing it and then lose it? Sometimes ASD comes later in life, more like 32 months in. 

 

Also, fun fact, autism is 4-5 times more common in men than women, and men tend to have more symptoms as adults than women do. We're not quite sure why that is, as most developmental disorders are either pretty even among genders or have to do with the sex chromosomes. Autism is neither. Weird, huh?

[Swimmingly he/him]

That would suggest that growth hormones that also affect gender and gender-related brain structure have a partial causation

[leinton]

The four prevalent theories for this are:

Different mechanisms cause ASD between the genders

Females are less vulnerable due to innately protective mechanisms

Everyone is equally at risk to ASD but females have other things that allow them to better compensate

Autism is an extreme of the male brain

 

These theories are not mutually exclusive to each other so it could be that they all are accurate.

[kari-no-sugata]

So you're saying that she trusts people remarkably easily, but instually hides anything she does not have to reveal?

 

One problem I have with trying to analyse Shallan is that she is "erratic", in her own words. (okay, she was joking but it's reasonably accurate). Sometimes she approaches a problem (or looks for a solution) from a more emotional point of view ("this is what I want to do") and sometimes from a more logical/analytical point of view and also a combination of both.

 

I do think she has a strong tendency trust / believe in / like people - I suspect this partly comes from trying hard to believe that her family members could become better. I also think she takes big risks in general not just with "Veil" or the deserters - it could be argued that Shallan took a massive risk with Sebarial, who she'd never had contact with before and only had limited knowledge on. That wasn't a risk she needed to take either. She decides to trust Tyn readily and still trusts her opinions even after Shallan killed her. There's a point where she finds herself wanting to like Mraize. She's surprisingly relaxed around Kaladin during the chasm scenes (we readers know that Kaladin is not the sort of person to take advantage of the situation but Shallan does not) though I suspect that inside Shallan is quite nervous about a number of things, including Kaladin, which is why her wit is going into overdrive (to help calm her nerves).

 

Why did Shallan decide to tell Dalinar about being a Radiant? I think it's a combination of two factors: she probably felt sorry for him and also decided that Jasnah's example (of keeping it secret for years) was not a good one. It's not entirely clear from the text but it feels like the sympathy came first and then she backed up her decision with logic.

 

I don't think she automatically trusts everyone. I suspect she never really liked or trusted Tvlakv, for example.

 

As to the second part of your question, I think she prefers to tell the truth and does not like deceiving people - there's a time where Shallan feels bad for deceiving Tyn, a professional con artist! Not that many people really "question" her but a common tactic she seems to use is to selectively tell the truth rather than to actually lie (ie none of her individual statements are lies but collectively they give a false impression). She definitely does tell plain lies as well, of course. And she's also capable of blunting telling the truth even when it could undermine her goals - on her first meeting with Dalinar she tells him that her family is destitute with little possibility of self-recovery. Some times she will instinctively hide things but I don't see this being her default behaviour.

 

I think her real deception is against herself - and unravelling those is what allows her to grow as a Lightweaver.

[kari-no-sugata]

Good question!  I definitely think you are on to something with Shallan's power of visual memory and using "lies" (deliberately positive reinterpretations of how she sees other people) to effect transformation.  I think that's more to do with her Radiant powers, though  (in some way we don't yet understand as it isn't simple Surgebinding) rather than a remnant of her abuse.

 

Here's another "suspicious" scene, from chapter 60:

"Mmmm... Such as why you have forgotten how to make your images produce sound? You did it once, long ago."

...

Shallan blinked, then held up the modern map. "The capital of Natanatan was here, on the Shatted Plains. [rest removed]"

 

We see from Shallan's flashbacks that she has frequent mental shutdowns (several times a day early on). I think the above is one too but it's quite curious that she specifically "blinks". It's like she just removed Pattern's comments from her mind (she carries on as if he'd never spoken). I would be very interesting to know how much time passed in that "..." line.

 

 

 

And what about Shallan?  She wasn't born that way - it was done to her, so could it be undone?  We know Cosmere magic can retroactively change the past (Forging) but when you Forge a person, the result is not the same person you started with.  A Shallan who had a happy childhood with two loving parents would not be the same Shallan we know and love today.  Assuming she gets the power to "fix" this part of herself, would she do it?  Should she?

 

This ties in with the end goal of a lot of abuse survivor counseling.  An crucial early step is to stop repressing the memories of abuse, but just remembering what happened is not enough to be healthy and balanced.  It is hugely desirable to reach the point where you are able to say that, although something horrific happened in the past and of course you are not glad about that, you do like the person you have become today, and that person is a direct result of all the experiences which led up to becoming who they are.  Incredibly hard thing to accept, but incredibly liberating once done.

 

How amazing would it be if Shallan someday understands how to heal her past, but decides not to do it and instead speaks a Truth,  "these experiences made me who I am, and I like who I am"?

 

This. Not how I would phrase it but this is how I see members of the Lightweavers growing. It's also internal and individual, which is why there's no fixed number of "Words" for them. Shallan gains in self-confidence during WoR but she still needs to work on self-awareness and self-respect.

 

Random thought: two Orders of the KR have "Regrowth", aiding the healing of physical injuries. Given the horrors of Desolations it also makes sense for there to be KR who can help the healing of mental injuries, though this would be more subtle. Shallan has already done some things along these lines.

[maxal she/her]

Maxal, I think what may be going on here is that you're trying to apply behavior of children to an adult character - that, and the perception of autism from a parent/outsider's perspective is vastly different than the perspective of autistic people themselves.  This, among other things, is why most ASD people I know can't stand organizations like Autism Speaks, which has no ASD people on its governing board.  I don't know if you've had a chance to talk to ASD people who are, say, 20 or older about the experience of being young (and often undiagnosed) in public schools?  (Being constantly told to stop stimming, forced into social situations, constantly overstimulated with no way to control their environment, etc - there are reasons autistic kids aren't always on their best behavior around neurotypical kids of similar ages.)  It's a vastly different conversation.  

 

Anyhow, the point is - a lot ASD people develop coping strategies that let them 'pass' as neurotypical by the time they reach adulthood.  So no, Renarin doesn't act like the autistic kids you know - because he's an autistic 20 year-old, not a preschooler, and he's adjusted his behavior to allow him to function in the world as much as possible.  If you look for it like that, it's a great deal more visible.

 

(Also, tangential to this conversation but relevant to Renarin in general, I'd like to gently remind you that he actually does express suicidal ideation in Way of Kings:

p. 281, for reference.  Obviously ideation isn't equivalent to actually being a suicide risk, but Renarin is certainly a great deal closer to it than most people.)

 

You are right in your assumptions. All my experiences with autism are with children. I have never met an adult with an autistic syndrome or if I did, then I was not able to recognize it.

 

The perception I have is indeed based on the perception other parents have of their own kids. In their defense, I must say these parents are amazing for all the hardship they have to endure to give those kids a happy and stimulating childhood. Everything is a struggle. They have to fight nearly every day just to get the appropriate resources at school to help their kids progress along with the other kids, they have to fight with some teachers whom, despite a clear diagnostic, sometimes won't be receptive to this child particularity, they have to fight for the school to recognize the reality of bullying as these kids are often targeted, etc. For preschoolers, they have to deal with a child that is unable to communicate as clearly as the other child, who will sometimes exhibit "violent" behavior (such as scratching or biting which are things very young kids do when they fell to properly express their feelings and this the kinds of behavior I am seeing in this kid at the daycare). Those parents also have to deal with other adults who won't understand their child particularity. They will think he needs a firmer hand or that he is just bad behaved and therefore the fault must come to the parents. All of these, I get from talking to mothers who are struggling with these aspects of raising an autistic child. They are great parents, really. I admire their courage, their perseverance and their patience.

 

So yes of course, I am talking from a parent's point of vue (as I am a parent myself of two young child) and yes based on this I was not able to identify Renarin as such. Despite all, I am glad to have been able to learn so much about autism in adults and I will avidly look for clues in the next book for this

 

And I am glad to read from adult autistic persons. I will try to make better effort to dissociate the behaviors I saw in children and the ones found in adults.

[leinton]

Oh, for the record, what Shallan does is called dissociating. It's a class of disorders with no physical symptoms, no biological or component, just be brain protecting itself by removing you from the situation you are in. People who dissociate have trouble linking themselves to what they dissociated from. They'll often describe it as looking through a window, or someone else controlling their body. Unlike other disorders, it appears to be possible to entirely recover from dissociative disorders. I doubt stormlight or Regrowth could do it, but I bet Pattern can. Cognitive-behavioral therapy works wonders on it, and I'll bet you Cryptics can be really good at those kinds of things. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

I just had this mental image of Shall an lounging in the Cognitive, Pattern stroking his chin and scribbling on a notepad.

[leinton]

Yes. Yes. Absolutely yessssssss.

[kari-no-sugata]

I just had this mental image of Shallan lounging in the Cognitive, Pattern stroking his chin and scribbling on a notepad.

 

P: Welcome in... please take a seat.

P: Now then... tell me about your mother...

S: I loved her. I killed her when she tried to kill me.

P: Mmm... now tell me about your father...

S: I loved him. I killed him when he started killing the family.

P: So fascinating! Mmm. Tell my about Tyn.

S: I liked her. I killed her when she tried to kill me.

P: Mmm... a pattern. Mmm... tell me about Adolin...

S: I like him. A lot, I think...

P: Mmm...

 

The next day Adolin finds a note saying "Never take off your Shardplate and keep a supply of jam in case of emergencies" - but unfortunately he can't read.

 

-- The End --

 

Sigh... I like Shallan a lot as a character but it's so easy to show her in a bad light. The part of her I find most disconcerting is her "coldness of clarity" state. She's had it since she killed her mother at least and maybe before. I wonder if there's any relation between that and the kind of trance she goes into while focused on drawing - it's interesting to note that she finds it easier to think then. This "coldness of clarity" state reminds me a bit of Taravingian's intelligence/empathy tradeoff problem and I really hope that Shallan works to avoid it.

 

Anyone got some diagnosis of "coldness of clarity" Shallan?

[theravenchilde she/her]

Anyone got some diagnosis of "coldness of clarity" Shallan?

 

It's just a coping mechanism, unrelated to her disassociation? I have a similar "void" of feelings when I have to debate, or when I get angry. Forcing oneself to think in only the strictest, most practical and logical mindsets often, as a result of emotional/social connotations, feels cold. Its why we call Vulcans "cold, unfeeling [bad words]." The coldness of clarity is simply restricting emotions from having a hand, keeping tempers in check.

 

(Unless someone else thinks otherwise?)

[happyman he/him]

Y'know, reading this thread, I was reminded of a small investigation I did a few weeks ago into the meaning of the word normal.

 

I don't think there is any such thing.  There are far too many variables in the world in general, and in us in particular, for anybody to be normal, or typical.  It's not a trivial thing to prove, but the math is well-established:  the more variables there are, the fewer examples there are at the mean.  Most of us have never met an average person.

 

I find it much more useful, in practice, to classify behaviors as adaptive or not adaptive, as helpful or unhelpful, as moral or immoral.  We can make broad categories of the kinds of behavior we run into, with special focus on the maladaptive extremes, but that is all we are doing.  Classifying, yes, and judging, but the judging will hopefully be as separate from the classifying as can be made useful.

[leinton]

You can only diagnose something as being a disorder if it negatively effects a person's life. That's why coffee drinking isn't considered drug abuse: if anything, drinking coffee positively effects a person's life. So coldness of clarity? That allows her to get stuff done. Thus, not bad.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Nothing is purely good or bad, I think. The coldness of clarity is a state in which she can get things done, but it puts her at an emotional distance from the things she's doing - she might do something logically that she regrets emotionally. It's a coping mechanism that puts off confrontation with internal problems in favour of externalization. This is all well and good, but you need a spren to force you to reflect upon yourself every once in a while, and let yourself feel the full impact of your circumstance.

[kari-no-sugata]

You can only diagnose something as being a disorder if it negatively effects a person's life. That's why coffee drinking isn't considered drug abuse: if anything, drinking coffee positively effects a person's life. So coldness of clarity? That allows her to get stuff done. Thus, not bad.

 

It certainly helps Shallan be effective in a crisis situation: in the chasm scene there's a part (from Kaladin's point of view) where she leads the chasmfiend back to the corpses from the bridge drop - I'm pretty sure she was in "coldness of clarity" there since she suddenly becomes very decisive and her language becomes terse.

 

One reason why I worry (and why I raised Taravingian) is it feels like she loses her empathy - I worry she might do something she'll regret. I also worry she might rely upon it rather than taking smarter pre-emptive action in advance, before the situation develops into a full-blown crisis. In the case of the chasmfiend that wouldn't apply (because it was so sudden and couldn't be pre-empted) but it might for future situations.

 

It's a cool and interesting side to her character... but I still worry

[Numb]

You can only diagnose something as being a disorder if it negatively effects a person's life. That's why coffee drinking isn't considered drug abuse: if anything, drinking coffee positively effects a person's life. So coldness of clarity? That allows her to get stuff done. Thus, not bad.

 

That seems like a pretty biased perspective. Your analogy points more to social acceptance as the reason for not being a disorder than positively effecting a persons life. A Disorder is anything that deviates from the normal. This deviation doesn't have to be good or bad. It can be neither and sitll be a disorder. 

[leinton]

Well my information actually comes from the DSM-5: 

 

 

"A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotional regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress in social, occupational, or other important activities. An expectable or culturally approved response to a common stressor or loss, such as the death of a loved one, is not a mental disorder. Socially deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) and conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are not mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict results from a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."

 

It's not about being "abnormal" (we try to avoid using the words "normal" and "abnormal" actually). No matter how typical your brain is, no one is normal. A psychological disorder is when there are severe detriments because of what is happening in your brain. 

 

Also, coffee isn't better because it's more socially accepted. Coffee is better because it doesn't directly harm you or your ability to function, no matter how addicting it is. Nicotine and alcohol are both socially accepted, but they are the two most commonly abused drugs in the world because they are extremely detrimental to your health.

Edited May 11, 2014 by leinton

[Elerubard]

You are right in your assumptions. All my experiences with autism are with children. I have never met an adult with an autistic syndrome or if I did, then I was not able to recognize it.

 

The perception I have is indeed based on the perception other parents have of their own kids. In their defense, I must say these parents are amazing for all the hardship they have to endure to give those kids a happy and stimulating childhood. Everything is a struggle. They have to fight nearly every day just to get the appropriate resources at school to help their kids progress along with the other kids, they have to fight with some teachers whom, despite a clear diagnostic, sometimes won't be receptive to this child particularity, they have to fight for the school to recognize the reality of bullying as these kids are often targeted, etc. For preschoolers, they have to deal with a child that is unable to communicate as clearly as the other child, who will sometimes exhibit "violent" behavior (such as scratching or biting which are things very young kids do when they fell to properly express their feelings and this the kinds of behavior I am seeing in this kid at the daycare). Those parents also have to deal with other adults who won't understand their child particularity. They will think he needs a firmer hand or that he is just bad behaved and therefore the fault must come to the parents. All of these, I get from talking to mothers who are struggling with these aspects of raising an autistic child. They are great parents, really. I admire their courage, their perseverance and their patience.

 

So yes of course, I am talking from a parent's point of vue (as I am a parent myself of two young child) and yes based on this I was not able to identify Renarin as such. Despite all, I am glad to have been able to learn so much about autism in adults and I will avidly look for clues in the next book for this

 

And I am glad to read from adult autistic persons. I will try to make better effort to dissociate the behaviors I saw in children and the ones found in adults.

If you want the worst possible example of an autistic adult, look up Christian Weston Chandler. Actually, don't do that. Your sanity will thank you if you don't.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Crazy1993

[maxal she/her]

If you want the worst possible example of an autistic adult, look up Christian Weston Chandler. Actually, don't do that. Your sanity will thank you if you don't.

 

Yeah well the guy's parent were weirdos weren't they? I would never base my judgement on autistic adults on such a persona. The guy is seriously misguided and I sort of feel sorry for him.

[Vanavel she/her]

First, Leinton, thank you for bringing in official diagnostic information! It really helps clarify. 

 

Also, I just wanted to chip in to the discussion about Shallan's problems being environmental versus Kaladin's being personality traits. I have to disagree. Many people have the genetic possibility of developing a disorder - such as depression or schizophrenia - but that gene is never activated. While Kaladin's seasonal depression during the Weeping has been happening all his life, it seems likely that his ongoing battle with depression was triggered by the extremely difficult circumstances he has faced. Honestly, after going through all that, it would be more surprising if he didn't have some depressive tendencies!

 

I guess all I'm saying is that environment almost certainly played a role for both of them. 

[leinton]

Yes, but the difference is there is something physical going on with Kaladin. Dissociation has no physical causes (at least, that we can detect). Depression does. But yes, genetics only code for possibilities, not behaviors. Is good point.

[Elerubard]

Yeah well the guy's parent were weirdos weren't they? I would never base my judgement on autistic adults on such a persona. The guy is seriously misguided and I sort of feel sorry for him.

More like profoundly stupid, advanced age, a complete disdain for getting any of the help he needed, and hoarding that eventually led to them burning their house down by means of trying to use a keurig in a poorly wired bathroom. I'd feel sorry too if the poor guy at least made an attempt to better his life. Forgive me if I've just deraled this thread completely by bringing up one of the worst possible examples for this topic.