Is Bavadin directing Trell's actions, even if Trell is her avatar?

[Ripheus23]

It occurred to me, Bavadin might have her own diabolical schemes but even if she does, we don't know that her avatars are all intentionally following a plan of hers. Maybe part of the point of her having avatars is so that she can have the equivalent of Splinters that "think for themselves" (and not just the vacuous sense of having thoughts that are in their own minds, but different from hers in Intent, so to say). So maybe Trell is a geocidal maniac but Bavadin is not herself in favor of massacring the Scadrians?

Edited September 29, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Angsos]

I would think she's in control of the avatars otherwise she risks making a rival independent of her power. 

[Ashertliden]

I think that its possible they all act independently, but are all focused on generating Autonomy. I don't think that they can directly oppose the will of their shard, but the method in which autonomy is achieved may be a source of difference between avatars, causing conflict.

 

However, we know that the Shard of Autonomy likes meddling in the affairs of other planets, which Trell is doing, so I wouldn't be surprised if the shard does direct the actions of all avatars. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Kal-Eldin

[Solant he/him]

I admit, I know very little regarding Bavadin and her avatars, but for some reason I had the impression that they were all under her direct control (which doesn't make much sense considering her shard's intent).

I had the impression that the presentation of multiple separate personalities was an act on her part, akin to God level lightweaving. I could have misread something somewhere... AU, perhaps?

Does anyone know for certain that her avatars are in fact separate entities? 

I apologize if the answer is obvious and I just misunderstood.

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

13 hours ago, Solant said:

I admit, I know very little regarding Bavadin and her avatars, but for some reason I had the impression that they were all under her direct control (which doesn't make much sense considering her shard's intent).

I had the impression that the presentation of multiple separate personalities was an act on her part, akin to God level lightweaving. I could have misread something somewhere... AU, perhaps?

Does anyone know for certain that her avatars are in fact separate entities? 

I apologize if the answer is obvious and I just misunderstood.

We basically know virtually nothing regarding the Avatars, and Brandon pretty much RAFOs every question that includes asking for details about what they are. Really all we have are theories at this point unfortunately.

[goody153]

I don't think the Avatars could go against the intent of Autonomy so in extension they can't go against Bavadin which is the executioner of the intent. 

But she probably couldn't direct everything the avatar does and could just give a general nudge about some decision making. 

Anyways thats all my assumption with the available information we have 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

1 hour ago, goody153 said:

I don't think the Avatars could go against the intent of Autonomy so in extension they can't go against Bavadin which is the executioner of the intent. 

But she probably couldn't direct everything the avatar does and could just give a general nudge about some decision making. 

Anyways thats all my assumption with the available information we have 

On the other hand, Bavadin did imply to Hoid in her letter that at least one of her avatars may have chosen to take him seriously even though she herself does not.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

On the other hand, Bavadin did imply to Hoid in her letter that at least one of her avatars may have chosen to take him seriously even though she herself does not.

I think that was Patji, not Bavadin. 

And I agree. I think there is collaboration, and a similar goal... But dissent on methods and practices. 

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think that was Patji, not Bavadin. 

And I agree. I think there is collaboration, and a similar goal... But dissent on methods and practices. 

Each Doctor is a unique individual, but they’re all the Doctor. That’s probably the most plausible analogy there is at this point, at least if we assume that the avatars aren’t just super-Godspren or something. Especially seeing as Brandon seems to be a fan if Hoid and the Tardis glyph are any indication.

[Borio Singaldi he/him]

Here's a question that bugs me about all this: how do we know that Autonomy is creating "avatars" that exist as separate minds in the first place? As far as I know, the only reference to such a thing is in one epigraph in Oathbringer. Is there a WoB I don't know of that states that Autonomy is creating "avatars" with their own identities such as Trell and Patji?

Where is the evidence that Patji wrote the letter to Hoid? Or what is the evidence that Trell is a so-called avatar of Autonomy and not Autonomy herself/himself/itself?

At times like this, I am reminded of the painful truth dictated by Oversleep's wise subtitle.

[Calderis he/him]

@Firerust it's... Complicated, and mostly guesswork.

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

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ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The investiture on that planet is residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a shard present. Indeed, I would say that no shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor shard worlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What shard is this investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all investiture ever predates the shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and investiture are one thing.

I always imagine investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To investiture, Adonalsium's shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

source

Quote

Chaos [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Did you mean to imply that Autonomy wrote the second letter in Oathbringer back there, with the aspects thing?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] (paraphrased)

Yeah, I did.

(He did imply that it was supposed to be fairly obvious.)

source

 

"The being called Patji still exists, and is a shard of Adonalsium." 

[Borio Singaldi he/him]

...Wow. That was quite informative, thank you. I asked hoping someone would be able to pull up a magic WoB out of Wayne's lucky hat, and @Calderis, you did so, as you are wont to do. So thank you for that. The "avatar thing" -- while still quite confusing -- makes more sense now. Before I was just wondering: "Where did all this stuff about avatars come up from one obscure reference?"

Welp. The more we know. These hints are getting crazy bothersome, though. Hopefully Wax and Wayne 4 might somehow possibly have another clue about Trell. (assuming Trell comes from or is Autonomy, which is a completely different topic... )

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

Ugh, my brain hurts so much right now...

[goody153]

10 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

On the other hand, Bavadin did imply to Hoid in her letter that at least one of her avatars may have chosen to take him seriously even though she herself does not.

She's such a fascinating shard if you really think about how she operates. Sanderson is really playing with the idea of gods well

[Fanghur Rahl he/him]

6 hours ago, goody153 said:

She's such a fascinating shard if you really think about how she operates. Sanderson is really playing with the idea of gods well

Fascinating? More like baffling.