Ishar is on his own side

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I have seen speculation that Ishar might be aligned with Odium recently. I think this is wrong, for a number of reasons. Ishar sides with Ishar, and no one else. Look here:

First, there is the ”main Ishar WoB” (a really, really useful WoB) which I have spoilered for lenght. Bolded parts are by me. 

Spoiler

CCQ

I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Nale trusts Ishar too much.

CCQ

Okay, but so did he do it on purpose, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has.

CCQ

Did he know what it was-- that it was a lie?

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

Here we have proof that Ishar has a very wierd psychology. We can only guess at exactly what makes it wierd, but he is very insane. I would guess the most insane of all, considering that he was once the wisest one. 

We also know that he is trying to convince himself of things that he knows isn’t true (in this case, that killing Radiants will stop the Desolation), and that he is preparing for the Desolation.

And then we have his letter in Oathbringer, which he sends to Dalinar as Tezim. He calls himself Herald of Heralds and bearer of the Oathpact. The last one is interesting, because it implies that he knows that the Oathpact never broke, and that he thinks that he is holding it together. The fact that he wants to hold it together tells us that he is in opposition of Odium. 

Furthermore, his rhetoric is so grand and so full of self-admiration that I find it hard to see him bowing for anyone. He basically considers himself a god at this point, and thus won’t bow for neither Odium or Dalinar Kholin. 

Finally, we have the Stormfathers opinion on him. According to Stormy, Ishar names himself a god, and seeks his own death, and perhaps that of every man. That isn’t Dalinars or Odiums objective. Dalinar wants to beat Odium and Odium wants to get off Roshar (and probably kill Cultivation as well). Ishars goal doesn’t seem to fully align with either one. 

So I think that given Ishars belief in his own divinity, and his wierd goal, he is on his own side in the war. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

 I agree. He was was formerly attributed to be pious and guiding seems to have his own motives. He seems ever patronizing and arrogant in his OB letter. He may well see himself as the true heir to ruler ship of this world. HE who guided may desire to do so on his own terms and destroy those who will not bow.

[Calderis he/him]

Here's my issue with him... And honestly it's an issue with Dalinar too. 

The Bondsmith attributes are pious and guiding. Not leading. A guide points the way. Gives advice and counsel. They aren't the person in charge. 

[Angsos]

Obviously the stormfather finds him acceptable because Dalinar bonded him and has progressed. He is kind of guiding the KR and Roshar to unite but mainly he's not very good at sitting still.

Ishar has 4.5 millenia of guilt for betraying Taln, whether he made some sort of bargain with Odium or not. The others obviously knew what they did to Taln was wrong but Ishar I assume started it. I'd also like to know what was Honor doing about the 9 heralds until he died?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Here's my issue with him... And honestly it's an issue with Dalinar too. 

The Bondsmith attributes are pious and guiding. Not leading. A guide points the way. Gives advice and counsel. They aren't the person in charge. 

Agreed. Which is why I (before learning more about Stormlight lore) thought Windrunners would lead the KR. 

But I don’t think Ishar needs to be guiding anymore. 

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

But I don’t think Ishar needs to be guiding anymore. 

Neither do I. I think it's a sign  of his corruption though. He moved from the role of counselor, to being in charge in his own mind. He still offers guidance to the other Heralds apparently, but I think it's serving his will and his will only. 

He has made himself a king, say that he is the only one who is divine, etc, etc. He has fallen to be a mockery of his own attributes like all the others. I'm just curious what he's doing to hide it from them. 

[Angsos]

Maybe he's not, maybe there's seeing what they want to see

[Ripheus23]

Ishar is readying himself to pick up a Shard, at which point he will be known as Ishard. (OK, first half of that sentence is legit prediction, the second half sheer flippancy.)

[Naurock]

Have an upvote for a pretty great topic, @Toaster Retribution! I really like it.

7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And then we have his letter in Oathbringer, which he sends to Dalinar as Tezim. He calls himself Herald of Heralds and bearer of the Oathpact. The last one is interesting, because it implies that he knows that the Oathpact never broke, and that he thinks that he is holding it together. The fact that he wants to hold it together tells us that he is in opposition of Odium. 

Furthermore, his rhetoric is so grand and so full of self-admiration that I find it hard to see him bowing for anyone. He basically considers himself a god at this point, and thus won’t bow for neither Odium or Dalinar Kholin. 

Maybe he's since figured it out that the Oathpact hasn't been broken. He knows there were proto Radiants. Watching so many people dying and him continuing to live may fuel this thought he's a god.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Here's my issue with him... And honestly it's an issue with Dalinar too. 

The Bondsmith attributes are pious and guiding. Not leading. A guide points the way. Gives advice and counsel. They aren't the person in charge. 

As for Dalinar, he doesn't really have a country to guide. He is also trying to inspire and not rule like a tyrant. He needs to build his followers before he can guide. 

[Kaladin Zahel]

The role of a guide is to lead. You can't guide if you are following the ones you are guiding or completely absent.

I don't think Bondsmiths are/were oracles but shepherds.

[Calderis he/him]

57 minutes ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

The role of a guide is to lead. You can't guide if you are following the ones you are guiding or completely absent.

I don't think Bondsmiths are/were oracles but shepherds.

A leader can hire guides to show them the way. They can have counselors to advise them. But the leader is still the decision maker. 

Leading and guiding are not the same thing. And I doubt they're being treated as such here. Both are Divine Attributes ascribed to different orders.

A guide does "lead" if you simply mean they're at the front. Because they're the ones who know the path. But leading isn't just being at the front. It's also about the decision making. Taking the advice and guidance provided by the people you delegate to and trust, weighing it, and making the decisions and knowing it may cost those people if you choose incorrectly.

[Yata he/him]

Guides/advisors/counselors are the people with the knowledge or field expertise and they illustrate the options avaliable.

The leaders are the one who (hopefully) using the advisors' expertise decide how to solve that problem... The route to take from the options proposed or if the options are acceptables.

Sometimes the two figures could mix for certain fields... For example, Gavilar was both a leader and a warfare expert so he himself had the expertise in that field without an advisor....but still someone else to confront is truly a blessing for planning. Regardless he need advisors for every field he isn't an expert into

[Leyrann]

But will Dalinar not likely take more of a guiding role now that there is a strong leader (Jasnah) on the throne? Him writing an autobiography, as well, could be a sign that he's going to take a little more of a backseat after Thaylen City. And once Kaladin figures out some of his problems (and says the Fourth Ideal), he can probably be the day-to-day leader of the Knights Radiant, but who still goes to Dalinar for council.

[Ripheus23]

The title of this thread is making me think of that line from Labyrinth, "Hoggle is Hoggle's friend!" or w/e.

[Rainier]

On 9/23/2018 at 11:24 AM, Calderis said:

Here's my issue with him... And honestly it's an issue with Dalinar too. 

The Bondsmith attributes are pious and guiding. Not leading. A guide points the way. Gives advice and counsel. They aren't the person in charge. 

That's a moot point for Ishar because all of the Heralds have perverted their supposed attributes. It's a relevant point with Dalinar that should be addressed in the coming novels. He's still got more oaths to say, and if Nale is correct, not even Ishar has said the fifth oath of the Bondsmiths. Something that distinguishes between guiding and leading, just as the other fourth and fifth level oaths are all more complex and nuanced versions of the second and third.

In fact, I bet Dalinar says his fifth oath in the presence of or in direct response to Ishar, and you heard it here first! I hope.