nicrosil compounders.

[Kelvin]

Nicrosil stores investiture.

So imagine this for a moment. A Nicrosil ferring/misting stores a bio-chromatic breath in his nicrosil mind. Then he burns it. Does he suddenly have enough breath to reach the tenth heightening? Can someone ask Brandon?

[Moogle]

It might work, but Compounding doesn't multiply the Investiture, it just powers the attribute via the Investiture you'd get from Allomancy. Allomancy uses barely any Investiture, so trying to Compound this way would likely lose you Breath because Preservation's Investiture wouldn't be enough to replace what was in the metal.

 

Of course, this assumes that the Investiture would copy the Breath, which is in no way guaranteed.

[Two McMillion he/him]

I tend to think that Feruchemical nicrosil stores blank Investiture rather than any specific kind.

[Shaggai]

I tend to think that Feruchemical nicrosil stores blank Investiture rather than any specific kind.

That would go against a lot of other stuff with Feruchemy, though, like how tinminds have to store specific senses and not just general sense magic.

[DSC01 he/him]

I don't know, but I can tell you that a double-nicrosil Twinborn would be very dangerous. They could very quickly turn a metalmind into a Nightblood-like Awakened object.

[akasketch he/him]

That would go against a lot of other stuff with Feruchemy, though, like how tinminds have to store specific senses and not just general sense magic.

 

So you're saying that Nicrosilminds might hold extraordinarily specific investiture, like how Tin works?

 

Wow. That would be so OP, it's not even funny, but I like it. Possibly just because it's new and makes my mind turn with the possibilities, but whatever. 

 

For this to work, the power of a Feruchemist would have to be not the power of storage and return, but the power of conversion. They would be constantly gaining a specific amount of all attributes specified in Feruchemical documents we have access to (excepting a few, such as youth, which they would have a specific amount of when they are born, and they spend it as they go through life), and they can choose to divert-and-convert said energy into specific Investiture in a metal that can be drawn upon later. Nicrosil would then be the "Store-all," but the energy they get would not be "investiture" until they make it so.

 

It is generally considered plausible that if one were to store an attribute in a metalmind whilst storing their entire identity into an aluminummind, another Feruchemist can access it. If a Feruchemist, for whatever reason, tapped-and-stored something into Nicrosil, such as an important memory, while at ID=0, and then left it in a safe place, a Nicrosil FERRING would have access to the memory. 

 

Also, what if a Nicrosil Ferring were to become a Knight Radiant? One limitation we know about Stormlight is that it is easy to infuse gems with, but storage really stinks because it's not really locked in there. However, Feruchemical storages never decay. If that ferring were to infuse themselves, then store it away in their Nicrosilmind, Poof, that limitation goes away, and we no longer need to carry tons of money in our pockets! And, that's not even counting a Nicrosil compounder.

 

As to the Breath thing, I think you'd just end up with either one REALLY strong Breath, or TONS of little tiny wimpy Breaths that would together be greater than your original storage.

[Shaggai]

I don't know, but I can tell you that a double-nicrosil Twinborn would be very dangerous. They could very quickly turn a metalmind into a Nightblood-like Awakened object.

Only if they used Allomantic power. The conversion ratios for other Investiture might not be so high. They might even be less than one, in fact.

[MistLord he/him]

I've always been interested in Compounding Nicrosil infused with Stormlight to fuel a Surgebinder worldhopper while away from Roshar. We know that some magic systems can be fuelled by others (which I will take to mean as you can hack Feruchemy and Allomancy to compound more Stormlight). We also know that Stormlight and breaths seem to have some kind of equivalency though it's not confirmed. If that's the case, then there should be away to create breaths from Nicrosil, though as said before, the conversion maybe be very low. It could be a very expensive process to manufacture even a couple of Breaths. 

[DSC01 he/him]

It might be expensive, but I don't think it would matter for a double-nicrosil Twinborn. I mean, look at the double-gold Twinborn (can't remember his name) from The Alloy of Law. The way he compounded health, even if Investiture is much harder to store, it seems like nicrosil Twinborn would be really dangerous.

[Shaggai]

It might be expensive, but I don't think it would matter for a double-nicrosil Twinborn. I mean, look at the double-gold Twinborn (can't remember his name) from The Alloy of Law. The way he compounded health, even if Investiture is much harder to store, it seems like nicrosil Twinborn would be really dangerous.

But if the conversion ratio for Breaths to cBreaths is less than one, you're overall losing Breath.

[DSC01 he/him]

I don't think there would be a poor conversion ratio. Feruchemy is end neutral. What you put into it is exactly what you can draw out. Allomancy is end positive: you get more energy out than what you put in. Combining the two is how you get people with effectively endless feruchemical reserves of a given property.

 

If Breath just doesn't work well with Scadrial's magic systems for some reason, the allomantic portion of a double-nicrosil Twinborn should still compensate for that. If not, the conversion ratio would have to be so poor that Breath would basically be useless in Scadrian magic systems. If that is the case, nicrosil compounders should still be able to store so much native Investiture that they could Awaken metalminds. Enough Investiture will create an Awakened object like Nightblood; it doesn't need to be Breath. I don't know that it would need a command to function, as that seems to be part of Nalthis' particular magic system.

[Moogle]

Given the recent WoB that you can't Soulcast atium/lerasium, even if you have a sample on you (because Investiture ruins things), it seems apparent that you couldn't create Breath from Compounding. This is quite sad for all concerned. One type of Investiture cannot become another, though it can replicate the effects.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Moogle

[DSC01 he/him]

Maybe you couldn't create additional Breaths, but I'd wager that you could create super-Breaths, like the Returned's divine Breath. Investiture may mess with things, but if it can be feruchemically stored, then surely there's a way to create more or boost its magnitude. There is some heavy foreshadowing that this will become an important part of the plot (otherwise, why be all mysterious about what it does in the Ars Arcanum?).

 

I doubt Breath storage will ever come up, anyway, though. Investiture may be relatively easy to get at on Nalthis, but it's even easier on Roshar, where you don't have to convince someone to give up what they may believe to be their soul. If any cross-world magic happens with Investiture, I'm pretty sure we'll see it there. To be fair, we already have--just not in a terribly dramatic way.

[Schventagon he/him]

I've always been interested in Compounding Nicrosil infused with Stormlight to fuel a Surgebinder worldhopper while away from Roshar. We know that some magic systems can be fuelled by others (which I will take to mean as you can hack Feruchemy and Allomancy to compound more Stormlight). We also know that Stormlight and breaths seem to have some kind of equivalency though it's not confirmed. If that's the case, then there should be away to create breaths from Nicrosil, though as said before, the conversion maybe be very low. It could be a very expensive process to manufacture even a couple of Breaths. 

Problem is, only gemstones, and only the 10 different kinds (ruby, diamond, sapphire, etc.) of gemstones, can store stormlight.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Schventagon

[Moogle]

Problem is, only gemstones, and only the 10 different kinds (ruby, diamond, sapphire, etc.) of gemstones, can store stormlight.

Nicrosil can probably store Stormlight if done by a Feruchemist, actually. I'd be surprised if it couldn't.

Regarding the whole converting Investitures idea, I don't think you can convert Stormlight into Breaths. This implies the ability to change intent, which means any Shardholder could convert themselves into another Shard (at reduced efficiency, maybe).

Why would Ati, a "kind man", stay as Ruin if he could change to something else?

Also, if there's an efficiency loss, that implies Investiture is not conserved... But everything we know points to that.

[Oudeis he/him]

Problem is, only gemstones, and only the 10 different kinds (ruby, diamond, sapphire, etc.) of gemstones, can store stormlight.

 

 

Nicrosil can probably store Stormlight if done by a Feruchemist, actually. I'd be surprised if it couldn't.

 

To walk the middle path here... there's probably a way to store Stormlight in a Nicrosilmind. If it's as simple as "be a soulbearer and also a surgebinder" I will be surprised. Remember when Mr. Sanderson talked of mixing arcana, he said it would typically require jury-rigging. I suspect it will be a process both specific and difficult.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Per MAG which Brandon did work with Crafty games on:

 

Feruchemists use Nicrosil to store “investiture,” or their link to the source of metaphysical power (in Feruchemy, this means the

deepest recesses of the self). Even the most learned Feruchemical scholars don’t fully understand the nature of this ability, but some

believe stored investiture is the rawest form of personal potential— the primal root of a Feruchemist’s ability.

In practical terms, this exceedingly rare metal grants the very potent ability to transform a stored characteristic — such as weight, strength, sight, or the like — into a “generic” source of power called “ investiture.” The Feruchemist may then tap investiture to augment nearly any

other tapped ability, from physical strength to mental speed and beyond. In this way investiture is the most potent enhancement available in Feruchemy, a reserve of pure, universal power that can amplify nearly any Feruchemical effort.

Nicrosil’s promise becomes even more astounding in relation to the many sources of great power in the Final Empire (like the Well of Ascension or the mists). Theoretically, a character exposed to one of these might be able to transform and store its seemingly limitless power, putting near-godlike power at his or her disposal. Fortunately, no Feruchemist in known history has been in this situation,

but if ever there was something for the Lord Ruler to strive for...

While this is by no means WoB on the subject I take it to mean that a Nicrosilmind wipes out the characteristics of ANY investiture directed at it. meaning that they will just get Feruchemical nicrosil. That said the rules for tapping are also clear in that when tapped with any other type of investiture the charges of Feruchemical nicrosil become that type. Meaning that you might be able to Create breaths or storm light WITH Feruchemical nicrosil as long as you already have some........

[Moogle]

The "pure universal power" is Investiture. It converts a stored attribute (which is just specialized Investiture) to Investiture. This doesn't mean it makes the Investiture "blank".

 

As well, the MAG takes place only on Scadrial, so Investiture-Investiture relations are not part of its rules. It also has known Allomantic rules simplified/wrong to make things easier. I'm afraid I don't share your interpretation.

 

All the Shards can power all the systems, or produce effects nearly identical to existing magic systems. If you could use nicrosilminds to convert Investiture, any Shard could convert itself into having another Intent.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

I'd like to re-iterate that the MAG is only slightly more canon than fanfiction. In fact, the Enhancement Metals specifically begin with a note, from Mr. Sanderson himself, noting that this was the section where they went the most off on their own. You are right, in that it's technically a part of a book which had some input from the author, but if canon has levels, this is about a quantum more canon than "that dream I had last night."

[Lord Tavash Shar]

I'd like to re-iterate that the MAG is only slightly more canon than fanfiction. In fact, the Enhancement Metals specifically begin with a note, from Mr. Sanderson himself, noting that this was the section where they went the most off on their own. You are right, in that it's technically a part of a book which had some input from the author, but if canon has levels, this is about a quantum more canon than "that dream I had last night."

 

I just checked my copy of the MAG and there is a note that the Enhancement Metal's are not well understood but there is nothing about this being where they went off on there own.

I also do not thing that as Brandon is a gamer him self he would have let them Print anything that was right out WRONG. Scaled down power wise sure. But not printing things that are mechanically not how the universe works at all.

 

 

Q:  If someone--Vasher says that Nightblood would kill him, is that just because he has this big deific Breath? Would it kill an ordinary person, like a drab?

A:  It would suck the Breath from anybody, and if they were unable to feed it he would feed on their soul.

Q:  So they would die.

A:  Yes. Anybody wielding Nightblood, he will suck their soul. For too long, he will eventually, if you draw him, he will suck your soul.

Q:  When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?

A:  The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.

Q:  I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

A:  Breath is definitely like Mist, it is in the form of the air.

Q:  And is Stormlight the same?

A:  Stormlight is the same. Good questions!

Q:  Would Vasher be able to use Stormlight in the same way that he can get Breath?

A:  That would not be immediately easy, but Stormlight could feed Nightblood.

Q:  Which is why Szeth can wield Nightblood?

A:  Eh, you'll have to see if … but yes. That could theoretically happen. You can use most of the magics on most of the planets to fuel the other magics, if you know how to do it, it is not easy.

(source)

This (Which was actually something you quoted Moogle) Makes it pretty clear that while its not easy energy from one source can be converted to another. So in the Rules from MAG of fNicrosil storing Raw fInvestiture processed from other types  is probably accurate. The numbers may not be correct in there 2:1 ratio with a 1:1 spending limit but the actual effect described makes sense. If YOU have investiture of another type you as a Fulcimist can tap your Raw Investiture to Double the amount of a particular type of investiture available to you.

Its difficult. requiring 3 separate powers that are hard to get in the same human but it can be done.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar

[Moogle]

Investiture can power anything, but that doesn't mean you can convert one type of Investiture to another. Nothing in that WoB implies Stormlight can become Breaths, for example. Just because I can power an engine with gasoline or ethane does not mean I can convert gasoline to ethane.

 

The WoB says you can use raw Investiture (which you can get in Feruchemy by converting your stored attributes) to power other stored attributes. This is okay, as that's all human-Investiture (whatever Investiture Feruchemists get?). There's no Investiture conversion - you put in human-Investiture into the metalminds, convert it into human-Investiture in a nicrosilmind, and convert it to human-Investiture to power other attributes in other metalminds.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Incheoul]

Let me know if I got this right.  My understanding is that the Investiture of the Scadrial is there connection to Preservation and/or Ruin which they are born with.  So if a Nicrosil Twinborn stored his connection to Preservation (thus weakening his Allomancy while it was being storied) and then burned it, he could increase his connection to Preservation which in turn would increase the strength of his Allomancy.  Nicrosil being burned increases the strength of other people's Allomancy at the cost of draining all of the metals that are being burned.  So if a Nicroburst is like a supercharger for other Allomancers, then a Nicrosil Twinborn would be like a nuclear power plant for other Allomancers.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Let me know if I got this right.  My understanding is that the Investiture of the Scadrial is there connection to Preservation and/or Ruin which they are born with.  So if a Nicrosil Twinborn stored his connection to Preservation (thus weakening his Allomancy while it was being storied) and then burned it, he could increase his connection to Preservation which in turn would increase the strength of his Allomancy.  Nicrosil being burned increases the strength of other people's Allomancy at the cost of draining all of the metals that are being burned.  So if a Nicroburst is like a supercharger for other Allomancers, then a Nicrosil Twinborn would be like a nuclear power plant for other Allomancers.

 

Incomplete and off base. Nicroburst Allomancers are supper chargers for other Allomancers. Soulburst (Twinburn with double Nicrosil) are able to manufacture other types of Investiture and the only ones barring a full blooded Terrisman by the Alloy Of Law who can access several different types of Feruchemical charges. They can make any charge they have learned but not store it. It has to be used then. And in the rules its a 10:2 ratio to make with a 1:1 pool to enhance. 

Sense the burn rules only allow you to burn a Number of Feruchemical charges at once equal to your Allomantic rating and the max for that is 10 at most you can manufacture 20 charges of any Feruchemical charge and then combining it with with other storage come out to 40 charges.

when most twinborn compounders can make 60 charges on a brand new character that sounds bad until you take in the utility of this ability by the AoL era. No one else baring Hemalurgy can access multiple charges and 40 charges of gold in the game is enough to

"You lose all Serious Physical Burdens; instantly recover 2 Health; immediately overcome a debilitating illness like the flu; or flush a simple

poison from your system."

Its very powerful when used in conjunction with fNicrosils ability to destroy the charges that others have saved in there metal minds and aNicrosils ability to send Allomancy into over drive. 

 

While I know that the MAG is not the final word on this I personally expect a Soulburst to be even more powerful then this if still in the same vein because it makes sense mechanically with the underpinnings we have seen of Alloy of Law.

[Oudeis he/him]

I also do not thing that as Brandon is a gamer him self he would have let them Print anything that was right out WRONG. Scaled down power wise sure. But not printing things that are mechanically not how the universe works at all.

 

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here, while simply pointing out that this is your opinion. You can choose to believe as you wish, but that doesn't make something canon. It's possible that, as a gamer, Mr. Sanderson would not let them print anything flat-out wrong. However, it's also possible that, as a gamer and an author, he would understand that the two were completely separate media, and would have no problem with things being incorrect in the fantasy world, especially when his other option is "reveal a ton of information about the mechanics of allomancy that I will not reveal in-text for years and have consistently RAFO'ed." While your scenario is plausible, it is itself a justification for why something ELSE should be considered canon, and it's not compelling enough to be a slam dunk for that.

 

You can personally believe whatever you wish; I do on many issues. However, I try not to act as though my own personal belief must be true unless I have compelling evidence, and your supposition that there is only one way a "serious gamer" who licenses his property to be made into an RPG would possibly act is, in my opinion, too weak a premise to make it all canon.

 

In addition, here's a partial list of known deviations between the MAG and the canon Cosmere. Again, let me reiterate that I think this is a good thing. The MAG and the novels are two completely different media, and slavishly trying to force them to match would have made the MAG much worse. It's my opinion that the game itself is much better expressly because of these deviations.

 

1. Atium. Tap 100 charges, revert to literally any age for 1 day. Actually an upgrade over how atium works in books.

 

2. Duralumin isn't burned like normal metals, but spent in charges like it was feruchemy.

 

3. With Steel, you're force to Push on one single piece of metal or every source of metal by default unless you take a stunt.

 

This is a short, partial list. Please do not respond to this post by justifying the individual points, because the underlying point is, this is a common occurence. The game was never meant to be canonical. I play this game. I love this game. And a bunch of my friends who play, we frequently discuss how it diverges from canon. One particular friend makes a hobby of taking things that happened in the books, and re-working them to see how plausible they'd be under the rules of the MAG.

 

Lastly, an anecdote. It was actually invented for the MAG that feruchemical bendalloy could store, not simply caloric energy, but also the hydration of drinking water. Mr. Sanderson thought this was such a good idea, he actually adapted it into the novels. But that's the thing. The authors of the game invented it, out of whole cloth, with no regards to the novels, because they felt like it. Mr. Sanderson liked it enough to adapt it back into canon, but that's one isolated incident. What this story proves is, it's entirely possible for Crafty, the people who made the game, to invent something on their own, without it being canon.

[Incheoul]

Wait so I'm wrong based off the mechanics of a game? I've never played the mistborn game so I don't know the rules but I was just guessing based off of my understanding of what nicrosil does.