Why "Unity" is Dominion

[Ripheus23]

First, if Unity was Honor, why would Odium be so surprised? A little, maybe, but not quite so, I think. However, Dalinar used to be a nationalist and is now an internationalist. This fits with Dominion's (undead) role in AonDor being country-confined, i.e. the notion of "Dominion" as "national unity." Second, I think there's a link between the Ire and the Iriali. Like the Iriali originally emigrated to Roshar from Sel via the Ire castle or whatever. Dalinar is linked to the Iriali, Spiritually, via his marriage to Evi. So perhaps there's some residue of Selish Investiture floating around Roshar. Besides which, I think Dalinar's internationalism is what summons some of Dominion, through the Cognitive Realm, to him, at that point. That is, the very concept of uniting the nations, impinges on the locality principle for AonDor, bridging not AonDor itself but one of the involved Shards, with Dalinar.

Secondly, Dalinar does not seem to have fully Ascended/taken up a Shard. I think, then, that he just drew upon Dominion's remnant, which would be similar to a Cognitive Shadow (indeed maybe it was through the Stormfather as Honor's Cognitive Shadow that Dalinar was able to Connect to the Cognitive Shadow of another Shard?).

Also, given how "long ago" Odium killed Skai, it seems as if this being reappearing, at all, as such, before him, would be surprising enough to garner the reaction he has to it.

[Calderis he/him]

Unless the Dor has been fixed, I don't see how this is possible. 

The Dor is a mix of Dominion and Devotion, and locationally trapped in Sel's Cognitive Realm. 

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Brightlord Maelstrom [PENDING REVIEW]

If you were to somehow use a receptacle to gather some part of the Dor, say there was a way of doing that. And you were to do one on both extremes of the planet. Would it be the same thing?

...Say, you have a container than can contain part of this plasma? ...Theoretically? You do that, taking one part of the planet, say Elantris, seal it up. And then you were to take another one, and fill it up in MaiPon and compare them, would it be the same Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, it would.

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Questioner

So I've got sort of a Shard-related question. So, the entity that Harmony is, all the other Shards that we've had named so far, are any of them combinations, or are they all--

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, good question. The only one I would count as a combination is the Dor, right? But it isn't even a full Shard. So everything else, single holder only when we talk about it okay? That's an excellent question. Or they've been Splintered completely.

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Why do you think that Dalinar could access Dominion at all, individually from Roshar? 

And more importantly, why do you think another shard would be fully introduced into the story at all? 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Calderis

[Ripheus23]

(A) I explicitly do not think AonDor itself was invoked. But the Shards are not clumps of particles, they are more like force-fields that span the Cosmere, with excitations localized. As Sanderson puts it,

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That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. ... but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

The Dominion-field is everywhere, so anywhere that there is nationalism/related cognitive energy, the Shard of Dominion has some, albeit limited, presence. Secondly, if the sDNA of the Selish people got transmitted to Roshar via the Ire offshooting into the Iriali, then Dalinar's marriage to Evi would have given him a Connection to Selish sDNA (as I already indicated in the OP, why am I having to repeat myself?).

(B) As for another Shard being introduced, I didn't say "fully," I indicated "partially" by referring to Skai's Cognitive Shadow. But anyway, given the centrality of Roshar to the Cosmere saga, I don't see why there would be a limit on the number of Shards who might be or become involved in this story.

EDIT: If Dalinar was Ascending (at all), and the Ire have a motive to try to involve themselves in such processes (as per their bid on Preservation's Shard), then, hmm...

Edited September 13, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Nathrangking he/him]

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We know Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change? Or could someone pick up the Shard of Honor and think--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*hesitantly* Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing-- I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

When Dalinar became Unity, how much investiture of Cultivation did he have?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, RAFO, RAFO, RAFO. He called himself Unity, I'm not going to say what that necessarily means.

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In the first Brandon tells us that a shard can be redefined. Odium would not have thought that Dalinar who was supposed to be his guy could ascend even for a short period much less take in enough power to open honor's perpendicularity and redefine himself. In the second Brandon notes that Dalinar calls himself Unity which leans into a redefinition of honor rather than a shard whose power is trapped and whose elantrian Sdna would not be active off world. If and it is a very tentative if that Ire= Iriali that does not explain the way that a shard like Dominion whose main focus seemed to be Fdjordell would suddenly transform Dalinar. Why not Gavilar the one who set off for dominion. Besides he is not of Iriali blood his wife was so it would make more sense to apply to his sons. Why would it impact him?

[Calderis he/him]

I don't see any parallels between the Ire and the Iriali beyond a similarity in the names... 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Calderis

[Jace21 he/him]

17 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

(A) I explicitly do not think AonDor itself was invoked. But the Shards are not clumps of particles, they are more like force-fields that span the Cosmere, with excitations localized. As Sanderson puts it,

The Dominion-field is everywhere, so anywhere that there is nationalism/related cognitive energy, the Shard of Dominion has some, albeit limited, presence. Secondly, if the sDNA of the Selish people got transmitted to Roshar via the Ire offshooting into the Iriali, then Dalinar's marriage to Evi would have given him a Connection to Selish sDNA (as I already indicated in the OP, why am I having to repeat myself?).

(B) As for another Shard being introduced, I didn't say "fully," I indicated "partially" by referring to Skai's Cognitive Shadow. But anyway, given the centrality of Roshar to the Cosmere saga, I don't see why there would be a limit on the number of Shards who might be or become involved in this story.

EDIT: If Dalinar was Ascending (at all), and the Ire have a motive to try to involve themselves in such processes (as per their bid on Preservation's Shard), then, hmm...

The issue here is that Dominions power isn't in the spiritual realm, which as you point out is independant of location. It is part of the Dor stuffed in Sels cognitive realm and therefore tied to the location, which is why Elantrians would seem to be powerless off world.

And I agree that realmatically there is no reason another Shard, or part of one, could lnt show up on Roshar, Brandon has said he wants the SA to be self contained. He already stretches it with Zahel/Nightblood etc so I feel like another shard from other books would be a step further than he wants to go.

[Philomath she/her]

Can someone explain to me why people think Unity is Honor re-interpreted? Besides the fact that Dalinar said “I am Unity” and he is also connected to Honor through the Stormfather? Because if we take the people and situations out of it and just look at intents, the connection between Honor and Unity seems tenuous to me. While I don’t think this is part of Dominion in play, I could far more easily see Dominion re-interpreted as Unity than Honor. 

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Philomath said:

Can someone explain to me why people think Unity is Honor re-interpreted? Besides the fact that Dalinar said “I am Unity” and he is also connected to Honor through the Stormfather? Because if we take the people and situations out of it and just look at intents, the connection between Honor and Unity seems tenuous to me. While I don’t think this is part of Dominion in play, I could far more easily see Dominion re-interpreted as Unity than Honor. 

Because the coe concepts on which honor acts are the same. 

Bonds. The Ideals under honor are a code of conduct. Under unity, they would be unifying ideals. Unity and Honor both rely on integrity. 

It's the same core cencept with the focus shifted in a different direction. 

Where Tanavast as Honor would have focus on oaths and keeping your word, Dalinar is focusing more on integrity and binding people together. 

[Ripheus23]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It's the same core concept with the focus shifted in a different direction. 

That's kind of a stretch. It'd be like saying that Preservation was possibly Unity because dividing an object into multiple parts to deconstruct it would be the opposite of unity. The only in-world invocation of unity that's relevant is the, "Unite them," charge given to Dalinar, which hearkens towards nationality/internationalism.

2 hours ago, Jace21 said:

The issue here is that Dominions power isn't in the spiritual realm, which as you point out is independant of location. It is part of the Dor stuffed in Sels cognitive realm and therefore tied to the location, which is why Elantrians would seem to be powerless off world.

If the Skaze are in the Physical Realm, then part of Dominion's power isn't in the Cognitive Realm. That's just where the bulk of it is. Since all things exist in each Realm to some degree, there has to be a remnant of Dominion in the Spiritual Realm.

[Calderis he/him]

18 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

That's kind of a stretch. It'd be like saying that Preservation was possibly Unity because dividing an object into multiple parts to deconstruct it would be the opposite of unity. The only in-world invocation of unity that's relevant is the, "Unite them," charge given to Dalinar, which hearkens towards nationality/internationalism.

Sort of like how Brandon says Devotion is being used as a synonym of Love? 

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Puck (paraphrased)

Does Aona equal Love or Compassion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have it, it's just a synonym there. You basically have it

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Skai equal Devotion or Order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You're not on there. But you are on on the first one [Aona].

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Chaos

So Aona is a synonym for love, hmm? Is Charity the correct Shard name?

Brandon Sanderson

Not quite. I’m trying to remember what the guesses were for the other Shard on Sel. I may have dismissed them too quickly.

Chaos

How about Mercy for Aona, then? The guesses for Skai’s Shard include Devotion, Obedience, and Order

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, I was right, then. Ha There’s something very ironic in all of this.

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The issue, if I'm right on the way shards are interpreted, isn't that "Unity is a poor interpretation of Honor." it's that both Honor and Unity are interpretations of something deeper.

Edit: to clarify, I think all of the names of Shards that we've seen are interpretations made by those who took them up. None of them are precise. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Calderis

[Ripheus23]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Sort of like how Brandon says Devotion is being used as a synonym of Love? 

The issue, if I'm right on the way shards are interpreted, isn't that "Unity is a poor interpretation of Honor." it's that both Honor and Unity are interpretations of something deeper. 

Devotion isn't an unlikely synonym of love. Most of the time when people talk about being devoted to something or someone, they are talking about feeling strong love for the thing or person. However, people rarely link being honorable with being unified, unless they're way into philosophy and come up with circuitous arguments having to do with personal identity over time or what.

Now this all gets into the nature of semantics/meaning/etc., whether there are irreducible concepts or if all words have to be defined relative to other words (postmodernism to a degree) or whatever.

EDIT:

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Bonds. The Ideals under honor are a code of conduct. Under unity, they would be unifying ideals. Unity and Honor both rely on integrity.

This is way too vague and/or circular. Besides, then we'd have to explain the concept of an ideal, which would lead us into another circle. And once we got to an analysis of integrity, we'd be in for yet more and more circles. Now, maybe not all these circles would be vicious but I doubt almost any of them were going through Dalinar's mind while he was confronting Odium after holding his favorite book and seeing it get zapped to ashes. However, the oft-repeated demand, "Unite them," was likely percolating near the fore of his subconscious, alongside his recovered memories of Evi and the role of her death in the nationalistic unification of Alethkar and so on and on. Moreover, if Honor were the Shard Dalinar was interacting with, why did gloryspren and not honorspren attend the act? I'll admit, the gloryspren flood actually makes me suspect Ambition, since it seems harder to square with Dominion, unless the golden globes of the gloryspren are somehow similar to the glowing globes of the Skaze.

EDIT 2: "...unless the golden globes of the gloryspren are somehow similar to the glowing globes of the Skaze" ... Well now, wait a second... they are rather similar.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Jace21 he/him]

Ok, just a couple of issues I have with this:

1.

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

If the Skaze are in the Physical Realm, then part of Dominion's power isn't in the Cognitive Realm. That's just where the bulk of it is. Since all things exist in each Realm to some degree, there has to be a remnant of Dominion in the Spiritual Realm.

Skaze being part of Dominions power don't really help you get around the location issue.

Through the Spiritual Realm you can still be connected to Dominion, as those parts still exist sure. But you couldn't ascend to or use the power without a serious hack or being in the correct location, neither of which works for Dalinar. Odium specifically stuffed Devotion and Dominion into the cognitive realm to prevent them being picked back up, it was early days and his solution isn't perfect but I seriously doubt Dalinar would accidentally manage it from a different Solar System and no knowledge of Dominions existence.

2. It would be incredibly disconnected from what else happens. If I understand correctly your theory is that Dalinar says the 3rd Bondsmith Ideal, then ascends to Unity (some Dominion/Skai shenanigans), then opens Honours Perpendicularity. The 2nd of those three things just doesn't make much sense in context as being either a result of him swearing an oath, or as a requirement for opening the perpendicularity.

 

I agree with you that taken in isolation Odiums comment fits Dominion better than Honor but given everything else that is happening it would be too out of the blue to be true, in my opinion at least.

[Ripheus23]

Well, I don't remember the end of OB [and no longer have a copy of my own] well enough to remember whether it is definitively stated that Dalinar Ascends. If he did, then I would suppose, "I am Unity," somehow referred to Honor, or a new Shard based on Honor at least. But I feel like it wasn't clearly true that Dalinar had Ascended, or else he would have ended up with a heck of a lot more power than he seemed to get out of the affair. By contrast, Connecting to Dominion's Cognitive Shadow via some elaborate Evi-Iriali-Ire/Stormwatcher-Dor Spiritual link (a link of almost pure Intent) would not have resulted in a full Ascension, I expect.

EDIT: Here's an interesting WoB:

kurvyyn [PENDING REVIEW]

If Dalinar actually brought Honor back together to summon the perpendicularity, and Odium said he Ascended. Dalinar did he actually hold the Shard Honor and is he now considered a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO! They are really waiting on this one. Let's just say, he is not Honor currently. But of course, you knew that.

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EDIT 2: Another one:

Argent [PENDING REVIEW]

Are gloryspren composed entirely of Honor's investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO.

source Edited September 14, 2018 by Ripheus23

[Jace21 he/him]

Odium tells Taravangian "Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend." after the battle of Thaylen City.

Despite Odiums general untrustworthiness I can't see why he would lie at this point. That said I imagine it was a partial or mini-ascension, as you say, Daliar clearly didn't become a full Shard.

Even ignoring what Odium said though, how would shenanigans involving Skai's cognitive shadow allow him to open Honors perpendicularity? Because it was definitely Honors, not Dominions. 

[Ripheus23]

Well, if Honor was the most powerful Shard at some point and had some lordship over some of the other Shards  But I don't know the answer to that question.

[Philomath she/her]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because the coe concepts on which honor acts are the same. 

Bonds. The Ideals under honor are a code of conduct. Under unity, they would be unifying ideals. Unity and Honor both rely on integrity. 

It's the same core cencept with the focus shifted in a different direction. 

Where Tanavast as Honor would have focus on oaths and keeping your word, Dalinar is focusing more on integrity and binding people together. 

I think my problem with that is it is almost like a middle-man connection. Like they in and of themselves are not the same thing, but are connected through something. But that’s the best explanation for how they are connected so thank you. 

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

The issue, if I'm right on the way shards are interpreted, isn't that "Unity is a poor interpretation of Honor." it's that both Honor and Unity are interpretations of something deeper.

Edit: to clarify, I think all of the names of Shards that we've seen are interpretations made by those who took them up. None of them are precise. 

I agree that it is hard to sum up a shardic intent in one word. But I’m not sure the intents are that much up for interpretation. It really is hard for me to see Honor becoming Unity because Bonds. It is too big a leap for me. Ruin chose to interpret and use his Shard like entropy, but he was still Ruin. Odium can be pretty destructive with his intent but he is not Ruin. And Harmony tried to interpret his shards as essentially balance, but obviously he is still dealing with issues related to the fact that they were once Preservation and Ruin. So I feel like Tanavast picking up a Shard that was supposed to be Integrity or something, but interpreting it as Honor, and another vessel could then go back to Integrity and interpret Unity seems a bit like the odd one out with the other Shards. (Granted we don’t have many examples of Shards switching vessels.)

Another thought I’ve had though while considering this are Honor’s Ten Names and Purposes. There are some good comments about Unity as one of those on the Unity Shardcast that I liked. While I don’t see Unity being completely synonymous with Honor, I could see it as maybe being a part of Honor. And to me it fits because Dalinar Ascended in a significantly smaller way than others we’ve seen. So he only ascended to a piece of Honor that relates to its purpose of Unity. Really random thought that I don’t think will actually happen, but maybe each flashback character (or modern counterpart) will ascend to a different Purpose of Honor.

 

 

[Ripheus23]

19 hours ago, Philomath said:

Another thought I’ve had though while considering this are Honor’s Ten Names and Purposes. There are some good comments about Unity as one of those on the Unity Shardcast that I liked. While I don’t see Unity being completely synonymous with Honor, I could see it as maybe being a part of Honor. And to me it fits because Dalinar Ascended in a significantly smaller way than others we’ve seen. So he only ascended to a piece of Honor that relates to its purpose of Unity. Really random thought that I don’t think will actually happen, but maybe each flashback character (or modern counterpart) will ascend to a different Purpose of Honor.

This is crazy, but while I was walking today, I thought all those thoughts and was gonna post them. So now I don't think Unity is Dominion, or Honor in total, but I suspect that the Dawnshards are ten special Splinters of Honor, one for each Name/Purpose/Surge, and by using them, one uses a god-Surge, so to speak. Let's say the Dawnshards are the spren of the polestones themselves. Let's further suggest that not everyone is a Child of Honor in the same way, that people like Kaladin or Nohadon are so in an unusual sense besides the regular one. If Dalinar became a Child of Honor in the sense of being literally adopted by the spirit of Honor, just like the Stormfather literally sealed his marriage, then perhaps the Dawnshards were killed because they were spren that became weapons that were used in the devastation of Ashyn (i.e. imagine a sprenweapon made from the bonded spren of the polestones themselves---not a sword, obviously, but something more destructive), and it was Odium who incited this event. So anyway, Dalinar quasi-Ascended to using the god-Surge form of the Unity-correspondent Surge, which would amount to personally using Honor's direct power (the Shard's, not Tanavast's anymore).

Basically, I decided I was wrong about Unity = Dominion because it would be easier to explain the, "Unite them," command in terms of the Unity of Honor (not Honor as Unity, though) rather than the unification of national dominion.