Calderis he/him Posted September 20, 2018 Author Posted September 20, 2018 This just raises more questions for me. I honestly fail to see how the prior desolations managed to have any significant time frame between them at all, because I have no doubt that a Shard would have no issue making any human break. The amount of pain and torment that a Shard of Hatred could place on an individual... I mean, just showing himself to Venli and Dalinar made each of them feel as if their very bones had been burned away to nothing, and he didn't do anything. If Odium wanted Taln to break at a specific moment, I don't see how he could fail to achieve that. He's a storming Shard. We've seen the pressure of a Shard almost force a Cognitive being Beyond before. How the idea that an individual resisted something that powerful for millenia is a tenable idea is beyond me. If it proves that the answer is just "Taln is amazing" then I'll suck it up and write it off as one of the few things I think Brandon did poorly, but for now, I'll wait to see Taln's flashbacks for what the real game is.
Leyrann Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Calderis said: I honestly fail to see how the prior desolations managed to have any significant time frame between them at all, because I have no doubt that a Shard would have no issue making any human break. But it's not Odium doing the torturing; he's not even part of the Oathpact. It's the Fused doing the torturing.
Steeldancer he/him Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 I'm also not convinced Odium had anything to do directly with Taln's torture. From what it sounds like, that was more of a Fused thing. Odium probably has more important things to worry about than the one herald who actually returned to damnation. Furthermore, there's still the fact that Odium punished Taln's temple more than any other. I'm pretty sure his holding out is legit. But it is totally up to you to think that Taln being awesome is a flaw. Less Taln fans means more Taln for me.
Calderis he/him Posted September 20, 2018 Author Posted September 20, 2018 12 minutes ago, Leyrann said: But it's not Odium doing the torturing; he's not even part of the Oathpact. It's the Fused doing the torturing. That's the entire issue. He's not a part of the Oathpact, and the Heralds are confined on his home turf during the torture. So what's stopping him? 12 minutes ago, Steeldancer said: Odium probably has more important things to worry about than the one herald who actually returned to damnation. More important than the timing to return? 12 minutes ago, Steeldancer said: Furthermore, there's still the fact that Odium punished Taln's temple more than any other. I'm pretty sure his holding out is legit. No matter how many times you bring this up, I'm still not going to see how is relevant. Hating is what he does. Hating something doesn't mean not using it. Just look at the listeners.
Leyrann Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 Just now, Calderis said: That's the entire issue. He's not a part of the Oathpact, and the Heralds are confined on his home turf during the torture. So what's stopping him? 14 minutes ago, Steeldancer said: Perhaps something of the other pact (not the Oathpact) that he made with H&C? Perhaps the Oathpact ensures outside interference is impossible? You yourself noted that something has to be in place, as it could take hundreds of years between Desolations at first.
Calderis he/him Posted September 20, 2018 Author Posted September 20, 2018 Which is why I said this just raises more questions for me.
Jace21 he/him Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 I still think Taln breaking and Odium waiting are not mutually exclusive concepts. I never liked that Odium could somehow stop Taln returning, since that it is Oathpact stuff that he is not involved in. But he could definitely have told the fused to hold off on the torture until the time was right. They misjudge how long it will take to break him, hence the long wait and Taln still being awesome. But they do have a lot of experience on breaking Heralds so they recognise when Taln is close to breaking ("Ancient of stones is must finally begin to crack") and manipulating the Alethi/Parshendi war so that once Taln does break, they are ready to begin the Everstorm immediately. I think Taln and Hoid saying he has "failed" or is "too late" could simply be that he failed by breaking and that Odiums plans are too far advance, making his return "too late" to make a difference. 4
+Child of Hodor Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Calderis said: 1 hour ago, Steeldancer said: Furthermore, there's still the fact that Odium punished Taln's temple more than any other. I'm pretty sure his holding out is legit. No matter how many times you bring this up, I'm still not going to see how is relevant. Hating is what he does. Hating something doesn't mean not using it. Just look at the listeners Quote "None of the other temples fared this poorly. It was as if Odium had a grudge against this one in particular" OB Chapter 59 It's not that he hates Taln, it's that he seems to hate Taln more than the other 9 Heralds. If the entire 4,500 year break was Odium's exact plan and Taln played right into his hands why would Odium rage at Taln's temple more than the Temples of the other 9 Heralds who all have temples in Thaylen City? 22 minutes ago, Jace21 said: I still think Taln breaking and Odium waiting are not mutually exclusive concepts. I never liked that Odium could somehow stop Taln returning, since that it is Oathpact stuff that he is not involved in. But he could definitely have told the fused to hold off on the torture until the time was right. They misjudge how long it will take to break him, hence the long wait and Taln still being awesome. Yeah, the Oathpact was designed to keep the Fused in and it didn't take into account the idea that they would just not try to get out for thousands of years. It didn't prevent the Fused on Braize from capturing and torturing the Heralds amd it wouldn't protect them from getting captured by the Fused and then not tortured for a long time. I think it took longer for him to break then Odium would have liked. Taln is the only one that didn't break between Desolations they could have misjudged how long it would take.
Calderis he/him Posted September 20, 2018 Author Posted September 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: It's not that he hates Taln, it's that he seems to hate Taln more than the other 9 Heralds. If the entire 4,500 year break was Odium's exact plan and Taln played right into his hands why would Odium rage at Taln's temple more than the Temples of the other 9 Heralds who all have temples in Thaylen City? Yes, and the listeners are regarded as traitors to have been derided, who didn't hold to Odium despite being the method by which the Fused are allowed to return through bringing back the Everstorm. He can hate something despite using it. He can hate Taln more than the others simply because he didn't abandon the pact like the others. I don't find the temple to be anything significant regarding this.
Ryder Posted September 20, 2018 Posted September 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Calderis said: I honestly fail to see how the prior desolations managed to have any significant time frame between them at all, because I have no doubt that a Shard would have no issue making any human break. This is a side note from the main discussion, but I've often wondered if Honor gave the Heralds something like the Kandra Blessing of Presence when he turned them into cognitive shadows. No idea how that would work, but we know it's possible to magically give someone increased mental fortitude and resistance to madness. Otherwise I agree, I don't see how anyone, no matter how noble, could withstand centuries of torture. And maybe the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact or Honor's death has caused the effect to go haywire which could be related to their collective madness.
Ciridae Posted September 21, 2018 Posted September 21, 2018 I'm thinking that maybe we don't fully understand to what extent the Heralds are tortured on Braize. I agree that it's most likely the Fused doing the torturing, and we know that a lot of them are in some kind of sleep. Is it just that maybe Taln wasn't tortured at 100% for the entire four and a half millenia?
+Child of Hodor Posted September 21, 2018 Posted September 21, 2018 16 hours ago, Calderis said: Yes, and the listeners are regarded as traitors to have been derided, who didn't hold to Odium despite being the method by which the Fused are allowed to return through bringing back the Everstorm. He can hate something despite using it. He can hate Taln more than the others simply because he didn't abandon the pact like the others. I don't find the temple to be anything significant regarding this. Taln didn't have a choice to abandon the pact like the rest because he died and his never having broken was critical to getting the other 9 to quit and essential to Odium's plan to get the long peace. They quit because he was the one that never broke and he died and was already back there giving them an excuse to abandon it. Unless Odium wanted all 10 to live and quit so that the Oathpact would fail immediately. Which would mean he didn't want the long peace and that was the backup plan because Taln screwed it up by martyring himself as he tends to do. He's not that mad at the Listeners because they saved his plan. If not for the Listeners abandoning Odium they would have been slaveform like the rest and Odium would have no Parsh to summon the Everstorm. Like Taln being "awesome" and never breaking helped Odium because it gave the other 9 an excuse to quit. He shouldn't be so mad at Taln if Taln played right into his hands and enabled his plan. Taln screwed something up for him, maybe not the long break. Alternate theory: Odium likes 9 because the Braize number is 9 (or Braize is 9 because Odium) and Stormfather confirmed Taln was the 10th Herald. He just hates the # Quote If it proves that the answer is just "Taln is amazing" then I'll suck it up and write it off as one of the few things I think Brandon did poorly, but for now, I'll wait to see Taln's flashbacks for what the real game is. There will be a twist, for sure. I fear he'll be book 10 since he spent the most time on Braize and his flashbacks would reveal the most about Odium. Alternate, Alternate theory: Taln never broke because he wasn't tortured ... in any of the Desolations! Odium had the Fused spare him, so that the others would think he was so resilient and then they'd abandon him. 4 hours ago, Ciridae said: I'm thinking that maybe we don't fully understand to what extent the Heralds are tortured on Braize. I agree that it's most likely the Fused doing the torturing, and we know that a lot of them are in some kind of sleep. Is it just that maybe Taln wasn't tortured at 100% for the entire four and a half millenia? Couldn't Odium destroy a cognitive shadow or at least corrupt/hijack it? He can destroy a full shard and he's not part of the Oathpact. Maybe what trapped Odium in the system was an agreement for a proxy war where the Shards aren't allowed to directly attack the others "pieces".
Wreith he/him Posted September 21, 2018 Posted September 21, 2018 20 hours ago, Steeldancer said: I asked brandon about when Taln broke last night. He didn't want to put an exact date on it, due to not having written Taln's book yet, but he said it was during or in the preceding months of the events of WoK, So Taln did actually break. I was liking my theory that he didn't break and one of the other heralds (probably Ishar) went back just to allow the Singers through. As has been said, him breaking just before WoK doesn't mean the torture wasn't delayed when he arrived. I don't like the idea of the heralds having to traverse the cognitive realm to return to Roshar, but it would be one way to explain Taln thinking he's late. We should ask if Taln went anywhere besides Roshar when he left Braize. Maybe he's crazy and got lost. I prefer the idea that perhaps Taln was aware of some of what was going on around him when he got to the Shattered Plains and was concerned by the presence of Parshmen and possibly even realized the Alethi were already at war with the Parshendi, thus thinking he was late. That would mean Hoid saying he's late and Taln thinking he's late stem from two different understandings.
+Child of Hodor Posted September 21, 2018 Posted September 21, 2018 24 minutes ago, Wreith said: So Taln did actually break. I was liking my theory that he didn't break and one of the other heralds (probably Ishar) went back just to allow the Singers through. As has been said, him breaking just before WoK doesn't mean the torture wasn't delayed when he arrived. I don't like the idea of the heralds having to traverse the cognitive realm to return to Roshar, but it would be one way to explain Taln thinking he's late. We should ask if Taln went anywhere besides Roshar when he left Braize. Maybe he's crazy and got lost. I prefer the idea that perhaps Taln was aware of some of what was going on around him when he got to the Shattered Plains and was concerned by the presence of Parshmen and possibly even realized the Alethi were already at war with the Parshendi, thus thinking he was late. That would mean Hoid saying he's late and Taln thinking he's late stem from two different understandings. *facepalm* I totally missed the new WoB in the thread, thanks for quoting it. I assume they have to go back on their own one way or another and aren't warped back like when they die on Roshar and automatically go back to Braize. They were never meant to go back to Roshar from Braize, the Oathpact was meant to permanently seal Heralds and Fused on Braize. Honor wouldn't have a reason to give them an easy means of coming back to Roshar since he overlooked the idea of them breaking in the first place. Odium is "in residence" on Braize, there should be a perpendicularity. The most likely way for them to get back is through there.
Wreith he/him Posted September 21, 2018 Posted September 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: They were never meant to go back to Roshar from Braize, the Oathpact was meant to permanently seal Heralds and Fused on Braize. Honor wouldn't have a reason to give them an easy means of coming back to Roshar since he overlooked the idea of them breaking in the first place. that is a splendid point that I hadn't applied to my thoughts on their travel back and forth.
Recommended Posts