Was it a Surge behind that?

[Ati]

I see this as a snapping control over his temper, which has been building throughout the book. I find it hard to believe "The guy I hate who tried to kill me and my father DEFINITELY wants to kill me and my father so I'll kill him" is equally distressing as Shallan abusive father/broken family or Kaladin's messed-up childhood with Roshone, losing Tien etc.

Maybe Sureblood's death made him snap? (I'm half-joking).

 

Also, when Adolin tells Sadeas that he's not the better man that his father thinks he is, he doesn't make it sound like this is something new.  I'm inclined to think that Adolin "snapped" prior to this scene in the investiture sense.  

 

I don't know if it made him snap, but I think it almost certainly contributed to Sadeas biting it.  Based on what we hear from both Dalinar and Adolin, the bonds with the Ryshadium run deep.  My best guess would be somewhere between someone having a beloved pet die and someone's bonded spren dying.  Relatively traumatic, either way.  Might contribute to a guy doing something...rash... 

[Kasimir he/him]

kaellok: I'd have to agree with you on the point about 'surge' being italicised for Shallan but not for Adolin. That, at least, I can't explain with this framework, but if Sanderson put it there to encourage speculation, he's certainly succeeded! Just look at the threads this has spawned
 
-
 
With regard to whether a Nahel bond could or could not have been in place:
 

Q: When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?

A: The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.

Does the person have to be broken before this bond can form, or does the breaking have to happen for the bond to take root? If that's the case, it might be possible to read Adolin suddenly not experiencing the Thrill as the sign of a fledging bond. There are problems with that, including the objection that the Unmade have moved, but it seems that this would be a way to solve the other problem: when did Adolin break?

 

If all it takes for the beginning of the bond is for a person to act in a way attractive to a radiantspren, then it's possible that Adolin has been drawing a radiantspren (which explains the Thrill lessening for him, the same way it has occasionally retreated for Dalinar through his unfixed quasi-bond with the Stormfather around the time of WoK) and then the breaking point by the end of WoR (whether it is from the death of Sureblood or from Sadeas' taunting) is what finally opened him to unconsciously draw in Stormlight?

 

I'm also interested in Ati's suggestion: breaking can be cumulative. On this view, it's not a specific event per se that broke Adolin, but the cumulative weight of many, many events--from Sureblood's death, to watching his father seem to fall apart (WoR) to Sadeas' constant attempts to destroy his House. In that sense, the scene where Adolin snaps would be the literal 'last straw that breaks the camel's back'--in both senses of breaking.

[Delightful]

 

I'm also interested in Ati's suggestion: breaking can be cumulative. On this view, it's not a specific event per se that broke Adolin, but the cumulative weight of many, many events--from Sureblood's death, to watching his father seem to fall apart (WoR) to Sadeas' constant attempts to destroy his House. In that sense, the scene where Adolin snaps would be the literal 'last straw that breaks the camel's back'--in both senses of breaking.

 

I like this suggestion.

Question then, how much time can a person be forming a bond for until they either speak the Ideals or the bond dissipates? Do we have any idea how long Dalinar had a semi-bond with the Stormfather?

Kaladin's bond forming was over at least a year, I have no idea about Shallan because she could already summon a Blade at age 11.

[Vaspin]

I think the person has to break before a bond can form. You may be able to still attract the spren based off of how spren act towards human emotions. But in order for the bond to form something has to broken inside so the spren can come in and do what it does.

[Pathfinder]

I THINK the Ryshadium might be another clue that Adolin is becoming a radiant. It has been mentioned in the books that it is VERY difficult to bond with one, and is very rare. It has also been hinted by Brandon that the radiants have done something to breed them. Now when I say hinted, I mean more along the lines of someone asking those questions and he stating they are thinking in the right direction. So although admittedly shardblades and shardplate can be used without being a radiant, I think that would be harder/impossible to do with a living animal. Maybe Ryshadium only bond with people who exhibit traits that could bond a spren? Just a thought. 

Edited April 23, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Guest]

kaellok: I'd have to agree with you on the point about 'surge' being italicised for Shallan but not for Adolin. That, at least, I can't explain with this framework, but if Sanderson put it there to encourage speculation, he's certainly succeeded! Just look at the threads this has spawned

 

-

 

With regard to whether a Nahel bond could or could not have been in place:

 

Does the person have to be broken before this bond can form, or does the breaking have to happen for the bond to take root? If that's the case, it might be possible to read Adolin suddenly not experiencing the Thrill as the sign of a fledging bond. There are problems with that, including the objection that the Unmade have moved, but it seems that this would be a way to solve the other problem: when did Adolin break?

 

I have been given this some thought.

 

It is stated in the book that Kaladin and Shallan's bond started to form during their childhood. Shallan killed her mother in self-defense because her mother wanted her dead because of Pattern... We all agree that Shallan's life took a turn for the worst after this traumatic event. However, she does mention her life before as being sweet and happy. I do not recall the exact quote, but she makes a drawing at some point of what her life should have been had not her mother died. Therefore, I can only conclude that Pattern was attracted to Shallan prior to her "breaking": we have proof her was there when her life has happy. True, she had to be broken for the bond to really take form, but the fact remains that a spren had chosen her before those sad events.

 

The same could be said about Kaladin. Up until Roshone showed up, his life was quite uneventfull. He was happy with his family, studying to be a surgeon, etc He didn't have many friends, true, but he had Tien and Laral. He did show some angst, but it didn't struck me as anything out of the ordinary for a teenage boy. He expressed the desire to join the army. Fine. Many yound boys dream of glory and of battles, this is not a sign of being broken. Kaladin broke when Tien died, but Syl was with him before, a long time before. He even mentioned her presence was probably the reason he felt so sad during the weeping.

 

Based on the facts we have, I can only conclude that a person does not need to be broken to attract a spren, but it needs to be for the bond to form. It is thus possible that Adolin has attracted a spren, probably during WoK as he struggled to obey his father despite thinking he has gone mad. He did present some qualities despite being still immature.

 

Events in WoK would have been some what enduring for someone like Adolin. After being abondonned to a sure death, he has to watch his father make some sort of peace with Sadeas. He struggles with his temper throughout the book. Sadeas keeps tempting him over and over again, on purpose. He realises he has littereally no friends. His brother, who was his only friend, now spends more time with bridge 4. I recall in WoR how they were always together. All this other brightlords his age tourment him and team up to beat him to death including one he thought was a good friend. His horse dies and if you read the scene, that was not eventless. Adolin is snapping at the time, but goes throught it using his training as a soldier. Move. Grief later. Battle was gruesome. He fought an impossible foe who did kill his father and nearly killed him and at the end of all this, he find out both Kaladin and Shallan are Radiants. He doesn't know about his father and Renarin at the time. So yeah, I guess that finding Sadeas gloating once again at the heart of a long forgotten city, he did snap for good. I do think he is indeed slowly breaking down.

[kaellok he/him]

Excellent points, maxal.

[Vaspin]

Kaladin didn't attract Syl when he was younger. Or at least there is no evidence which supports this. He may have always known he was a part of the wind, but I don't think Syl had even left to find Kaladin when he still lived at home. If you recall, even though Shallan had regressed in her spren bond she was still aware of being able to communicate with spren. In Kaladin's flashback there isn't anything like that happening. The earliest she mentions of being around him is his time in Amaram's army and then he sees her when he is a slave. Same thing with Dalinar, he had no connection with the Stormfather until after his brother died. He most likely was the exact opposite of what Radiants were in his warmongering days.

 

It's very unlikely Adolin was attracting any spren at the beginning of the story. We have seen people attracting spren at all ages, Shallan being the youngest and Dalinar the oldest. Age isn't what is required or the changing of your way of life. You have to actively be representing the Ideal which corresponds with the correct spren in order to attract one. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by Vaspin

[Guest]

Kaladin didn't attract Syl when he was younger. Or at least there is no evidence which supports this. He may have always known he was a part of the wind, but I don't think Syl had even left to find Kaladin when he still lived at home. If you recall, even though Shallan had regressed in her spren bond she was still aware of being able to communicate with spren. In Kaladin's flashback there isn't anything like that happening. The earliest she mentions of being around him is his time in Amaram's army and then he sees her when he is a slave. Same thing with Dalinar, he had no connection with the Stormfather until after his brother died. He most likely was the exact opposite of what Radiants were in his warmongering days.

 

It's very unlikely Adolin was attracting any spren at the beginning of the story. We have seen people attracting spren at all ages, Shallan being the youngest and Dalinar the oldest. Age isn't what is required or the changing of your way of life. You have to actively be representing the Ideal which corresponds with the correct spren in order to attract one. 

 

When fighting Szeth at the end of WoR, Kaladin mentions he has been surgebinding since childhood. He was thus not untrained nor new to the thing.

 

"You're wrong," Kaladin said. "About me. I'm not new to this".

"You only just acquired your abilities."

"No. The wind is mine. The sky is mine. They have been mine since childhood. You are the trespasser. Not me."

 

I interpreted this as Kaladin having Syl with him since childhood, but not knowing. She was there, but not really there. She had chosen him already, but he was not ready so she was just waiting or so I figured.

 

It is therefore not impossible for Adolin to have attracted the interest of a spren already. It is more probable he hasn't yet, but I wouldn't ruled it out simply because he has had an apparent easy life. Besides, easy life or no, he is clearly breaking down at the end of WoR. Too much in too little time. Overwhelmed.

 

Besides, Adolin is actively being brave and obedient That he struggles with the latest is not unlike Kaladin's struggle with doing the right thing.

Edited April 24, 2014 by maxal

[Delightful]

I don't have the exact quote, but there was definitely a line somewhere that said that Radiants had Rhyshadium back in the old days (not sure if this is shadowdays or later), when any horses at all were rare. There's definitely some kind of connection between the two,

 

But since Kaladin doesn't like horses....reckon he'll get a Rhyshadium chull, much like his Shardblade became a Shardspear? 

 

Edit: Found it! page 317, Chapter 25 'Monsters', Dalinar's head groom tells Kaladin.

 

'Horseback riding isn't mentioned in Arts and Majesty," she replied. "Horses weren't terribly well known back then. Radiants had Ryshadium, but even kings had little access to ordinary horses." 

Definite connection between the two. So far we have Dalinar, Radiant with a Ryshadium. Adolin, possible Radiant, had a Ryshadium from when he was young. Shallan, Kaladin and Jasnah have never had a Ryshadium as far as we're aware, unlikley Ym or Lift did either. Renarin doesn't. A handful of randoms in the Alethi? Dalinar's? army have Ryshadium, as far as we know they're not Radiant.
I don't think we have enough information to say if having a Rhyshadium makes you any more likely to be a Radiant, unless both Ryshadium and spren look for similar qualities? Is bonding with a Ryshadium anything like bonding with a spren? (has anyone asked Brandon this?)

/ramble.

 

Just going to add that Hoid was surprised by Ryshadium, which may or may not be relevant to this discussion. Or this thread 

Edited April 24, 2014 by Delightful

[Vaspin]

But what you're confusing here is he never said anything about surgebinding. He's talking about the winds in a spiritual sense. Part of what is so great about Kaladin's growth in this book is how thorough it is. He resolves his issues with his blind hatred to all lighteyes, he realizes what being a Windrunner is about, and he understands his nature. He mentions a few times in Words of Radiance about the "winds." He knows he doesn't actually interact with the wind when he surgebinds, but he identifies with it personally. It's why we saw him, as a kid, get sad and depressed when the Weeping occured, and later again during the book. This relationship to the "wind" is not dependent on his bond with Syl, it has to do with nature as a Windrunner.

 

In the first book, there were a few questions about how spren interacted with the Physical world. Were they attracted to specific phenomena or did they cause it? It's widely assumed spren are drawn to things which are connected to their individual nature. During his flashbacks, I can't really point to any instance to him having any attributes of leading and he has one instance of trying to protect his brother. But is shown to have both of those when he's in Amaram's army, regardless of what his situation his. Can't say the same for Adolin he's not all that obedient to his father in The Way of King's, he's constantly challenging Dalinar's judgement and there isn't any special form of bravery he demonstrates. 

 

You also have to remember 3 other surgebinders( Dalinar, Jasnah, Lift) did not receive their abilities in their childhoods. 

[Numb]

The difference between Jasnah/Dalinar and Kal is that Kal has ALWAYS wanted to protect people. It's not like he suddenly changed during his life like Dalinar has. We have WoB that the bond starts forming long before it becomes concrete after saying the words. You can only surgebind once you have said the words it seems but that doesn't meant the bond wasn't forming before. I think Kal was "forming" bond with Honorspren as a concept but only when Syl came and he said the words did he actually form the bond with a specific spren, that spren being her. 

 

Lift is still a child and we know next to nothing about her. It's entirely possible that Jasnah actually is similar to Kal. She was a different child remember so maybe she was forming the bond already back then. She seems to have always had that desire as a scholar which could be part of her spren. 

 

The issue here is if the bond itself and the nature of the order is separate. I don't think so. If you embody that order you also form a bond, the two are essentially the same thing.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Numb

[Vaspin]

I think you're confusing what I am saying. I was using Kaladin's experience to show how he did not have a bond with Syl as a child, but he was always naturally attuned to the wind. Whereas Adolin has shown nothing in the way of evidence to him forming a Nahel bond as of yet or any specific nature to one of the Orders. I'm not against Adolin being able to become a Radiant, but everyone has their own path to walk to Radianthood. No two Radiants have comparable backgrounds

 

And also you can't assume the bond is formed just because they have the propensity for it. The spren actually have to be in the Physical Realm for it to occur. They didn't all arrive at the same time. From the way it seems in the story the order goes Pattern -> Ivory -> Syl -> Wyndle( didn't include some of the others because there isn't enough information to discern their meeting with the characters). So while you say Kaladin always portrayed those attributes he couldn't have been bonded to Syl always. And from the way Syl acted in the early parts of Way of Kings it seems very likely she had not been with Kaladin for any substantial length of time. She still seemed to be acting like a regular windspren.

[twelfthrootoftwo]

It's a small thing, and probably nothing, but to parallel Kaladin's attitude to the wind/storms:

 

The infused ruby, encased in a metal enclosure, glowed softly and gave off a comfortable heat. It was convenient, though it felt wrong to Adolin that no fire lay crackling there. - TWoK, ch52

Edited April 24, 2014 by twelfthrootoftwo

[Guest]

But what you're confusing here is he never said anything about surgebinding. He's talking about the winds in a spiritual sense. Part of what is so great about Kaladin's growth in this book is how thorough it is. He resolves his issues with his blind hatred to all lighteyes, he realizes what being a Windrunner is about, and he understands his nature. He mentions a few times in Words of Radiance about the "winds." He knows he doesn't actually interact with the wind when he surgebinds, but he identifies with it personally. It's why we saw him, as a kid, get sad and depressed when the Weeping occured, and later again during the book. This relationship to the "wind" is not dependent on his bond with Syl, it has to do with nature as a Windrunner.

 

In the first book, there were a few questions about how spren interacted with the Physical world. Were they attracted to specific phenomena or did they cause it? It's widely assumed spren are drawn to things which are connected to their individual nature. During his flashbacks, I can't really point to any instance to him having any attributes of leading and he has one instance of trying to protect his brother. But is shown to have both of those when he's in Amaram's army, regardless of what his situation his. Can't say the same for Adolin he's not all that obedient to his father in The Way of King's, he's constantly challenging Dalinar's judgement and there isn't any special form of bravery he demonstrates. 

 

You also have to remember 3 other surgebinders( Dalinar, Jasnah, Lift) did not receive their abilities in their childhoods. 

 

Yes but you can have attracted a spren before surgebinding for the first time. I do not think Kal surgebinded when he was a child, unlike Shallan, but he did have something special going on. I interpreted his discussion with Szeth as him having been chosen since childhood, not not realising until he sat on the edge of that chasm in WoK. I always interpreted he got depressed during the weeping because his sensitivity was enhanced due to the presence of a spren floating around. Syl had litteraly no conscience then, but I do think she was there and she got more and more present as Kaladin starts to break down. First, Tien's death, then the slavery, then the brige runs. The more Kal's life takes a turn for the worst, the more aware Syl is. I think this a non-obstant condition for becoming a Radiant. You need to loose something in order for the spren to fill in.

 

Now, if we move onto the subject of Shallan, she definitely surgebinded when she killed her mother (she used Pattern as a sword). Therefore, she had a bond before and before she was not broken. She was just your regular happy kid with an unusual talent for drawing.

 

We don't know enought about Jasnah nor Lift to make any conclusion. I personnally think Jasnah had a spren moving around her since her teen years as Navani described her as a very peculiar teenager. However, we do not have proof of this at this stage.

 

As for Adolin being obedient, I thought he was VERY obedient in WoK. Yes he complained the whole time, he challenged his father over and over again, but in the end, he did as he was told. You have there a young rich slightly spoiled kid with an arrogant streak that is stuck living following a set of rules he does not understand and that struck him as silly. What does he do? He whines to daddy all the time, but does he go binge drinking with his friends behind his father's back? No. Does he go challenging other duelists despite his father refusal? No. Does he arrive at the feast wearing the latest Azir fashion just to spite his father? No. He is afraid the whole time his father is going insane and he tries to figure out of to deal with this. I thought he was very very obedient. Hell, if I still were 22 and if I were stuck in such a situation, I would have probably send my father to hell and go have a few glasses of blue wine while wearing something pretty Now that would have been "brave". I agree the brave thing was more obvious in WoR when he starts the duels and while fighting the Assassin in White. Althought that, in WoK, he certainly never shy out of a battle.

Edited April 24, 2014 by maxal

[Guest]

It's a small thing, and probably nothing, but to parallel Kaladin's attitude to the wind/storms:

 

The infused ruby, encased in a metal enclosure, glowed softly and gave off a comfortable heat. It was convenient, though it felt wrong to Adolin that no fire lay crackling there. - TWoK, ch52

 

I fell to see your point.... Do you mean that Adolin missing fire is a sign of something? One of the Dustbringer powers is fire.

Edited April 24, 2014 by maxal

[Guest]

I don't have the exact quote, but there was definitely a line somewhere that said that Radiants had Rhyshadium back in the old days (not sure if this is shadowdays or later), when any horses at all were rare. There's definitely some kind of connection between the two,

 

But since Kaladin doesn't like horses....reckon he'll get a Rhyshadium chull, much like his Shardblade became a Shardspear? 

 

Edit: Found it! page 317, Chapter 25 'Monsters', Dalinar's head groom tells Kaladin.

Definite connection between the two. So far we have Dalinar, Radiant with a Ryshadium. Adolin, possible Radiant, had a Ryshadium from when he was young. Shallan, Kaladin and Jasnah have never had a Ryshadium as far as we're aware, unlikley Ym or Lift did either. Renarin doesn't. A handful of randoms in the Alethi? Dalinar's? army have Ryshadium, as far as we know they're not Radiant.

I don't think we have enough information to say if having a Rhyshadium makes you any more likely to be a Radiant, unless both Ryshadium and spren look for similar qualities? Is bonding with a Ryshadium anything like bonding with a spren? (has anyone asked Brandon this?)

/ramble.

 

Just going to add that Hoid was surprised by Ryshadium, which may or may not be relevant to this discussion. Or this thread 

 

Oh I love the Rhysadium talk! Rhysaduim are awesome and I was very sad by Sureblood's death

 

We indeed have proofs that Rhysadium were the only horses back in the time and that only Radiants had them. The regular folk had to use their own feet. Regular horses came after. Now, we could question ourselves how it is that a youth like Adolin got a Rhysadium... All the other Rhysadium owners are much older, seasoned warriors (or so I gathered). I also recalled Sadeas being frustrated over the fact a mop-haired kid like Adolin was a full shardbearer and had a Rhysadium whereas a grown man did not.

 

Adolin always was sort of a special case. There are not many full sharbearers in the camp and most young men bearing the full set are in fact wearing their father's or their highlord's shards. Not Adolin. He actually owns his set. And he has a Rhysadium.

 

I dunno if bonding a Rhysadium is like bonding a spren, but we see Sureblood react to Adolin's emotions. Also, when Sureblood blood died, there was this scream in Adolin's helmet (probably him screaming his mind out as the bond was severed) which was not so much unlike Syl's scream as Kal broke the bond. Just food for some thoughts.

 

FIY, I would LOVE to see Kal riding a Rhysadium chull! That would be awesome as Kal is nearly incompetent on a horse back. That chapter were Kal looks at the horses as if they were beasts straight from hell was hilarious.

Edited April 24, 2014 by maxal

[Terra of Roshar she/her]

Oh I love the Rhysadium talk! Rhysaduim are awesome and I was very sad by Sureblood's death

 

We indeed have proofs that Rhysadium were the only horses back in the time and that only Radiants had them. The regular folk had to use their own feet. Regular horses came after. Now, we could question ourselves how it is that a youth like Adolin got a Rhysadium... All the other Rhysadium owners are much older, seasoned warriors (or so I gathered). I also recalled Sadeas being frustrated over the fact a mop-haired kid like Adolin was a full shardbearer and had a Rhysadium whereas a grown man did not.

 

Adolin always was sort of a special case. There are not many full sharbearers in the camp and most young men bearing the full set are in fact wearing their father's or their highlord's shards. Not Adolin. He actually owns his set. And he has a Rhysadium.

 

I dunno if bonding a Rhysadium is like bonding a spren, but we see Sureblood react to Adolin's emotions. Also, when Sureblood blood died, there was this scream in Adolin's helmet (probably him screaming his mind out as the bond was severed) which was not so much unlike Syl's scream as Kal broke the bond. Just food for some thoughts.

 

FIY, I would LOVE to see Kal riding a Rhysadium chull! That would be awesome as Kal is nearly incompetent on a horse back. That chapter were Kal looks at the horses as if they were beasts straight from hell was hilarious.

 

He was posting after like an hour. As someone who has ridden since I was seven and remember how long it took me to pick things up, I am duly impressed with his progress. Sure, he's not a master rider, but he was described as better than pretty much all of the bridgemen but Moash, so I think he'd be perfectly capable on a Rhyshadium after a little more practice.

 

I do agree with what you're saying about a Rhyshadium's bond with its rider being somewhat like a Nahel bond, although I think it's probably weaker.