Aboshi and Mountain Spren

[1stBondsmith he/him]

On a careful reread, I rediscovered a conversation between Szeth and Nale, where Szeth refers to Nale as "Aboshi, a deific honorific previously reserved for the Spren of the Mountains..." 

From this I gather the obvious, that the Shin honor those spren as Gods, but what are these spren? Do they represent a spren for each mountain; a spren for all the mountains, or many spren in the mountains? Based on the sentence, I see them/ it as being powerful and large spren, since Szeth does not seem to treat all spren with equal reverence. Are these mountain spren why walking on stone is Sacred? We need more info on this. Have any of you addressed this before?

Thanks.

Edited September 4, 2018 by 1stBondsmith
spelling

[Pagerunner he/him]

I'm finishing up a reread myself, and I've struggled with this line, too. One challenge with interpreting it is that "Spren" is both the singular term and the plural term. So, he could be referring to many spren of the mountains. (This could directly parallel the Horneater myth, where there are gods of the trees, gods of the waters, and gods of the mountains.) Or it could be referring to a single spren, who represents the Mountains in total, one of the three Bondsmith spren. (As they are theorized to be mentioned in the Elia Stele: "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. Stormfather is obviously Wind; either Nightwatcher or Sibling could fulfill the other two. I've seen good arguments made for both directions) And if it is a particular term for the Sibling, which is itself always referred to as "they," other references to the spren of stone that appear plural (like Nale speaking to Szeth at the end of WoR, "Your people revere the spren of stone, but you do not worship them") could be referring to a type of spren, or they could be referring to the Sibling.

If it's a group of spren, I'd think the spren of the mountains could be the Stoneward spren, who we saw with cracked-stone skin in Celebrant. Going off the Horneater myth, there's an easy candidate for the spren of the trees; cultivationspren. I'm not sure who could be the spren of the waters, though; the only Radiant spren we haven't seen in Shadesmar are the Truthwatcher spren and the Highspren, and neither of them seem particularly aquatic in the Physical Realm. There are other intelligent spren in Shadesmar who don't bond Radiants (like the mistspren), so potentially the spren of the waters could be an unseen spren race.

So, yeah, it's a good question that I don't think has a definitive answer at this point. There are a couple schools of thought (Radiant spren vs godspren), and I know I find myself waffling between the two on a regular basis.

[Wreith he/him]

I was attempting to make a connection between Shin, Listener, and Horneater also.

I make the assumption that the Listener and Horneaters originally revered the Storm and that eventually became Water for one and Wind for the other (the primary parts of a storm)
That would mean that the god of Trees would have to correspond to the god of Spren

Horneater: Trees, Water, Mountain
Listener   : Spren, Wind, Stone
Shin         : Spren, ? , Stone

So my theory ends up with the Stormfather for Wind and Water, the Nightwatcher for Trees and Spren, and "the Sibling" for Stone and Mountain.

I feel it worth noting that these three races' languages are all in the dawnate group, which adds support to the idea that their beliefs should be considered together.

 

For the identity of the Sibling, I think Cusicesh is a misdirect.
In-world reason being that it is in Iri and I don't trust anything from there to behave by regular Roshar rules.
Meta reason is it's too obvious.

also it doesn't fit my theory lol
 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Wreith

[Pagerunner he/him]

Yeah, they're well-reasoned associations, and they've been made before. But as of late, I've thought that the gods of the waters don't fit at all with a highstorm.

Quote

Next, tana’kai, he visited gods of the waters. ‘Can we live in your depths?’ he pled. ‘Give to us power to breathe as fish, and we will serve you beneath oceans.’ Alas, waters could not help. ‘Men dig into our hearts with hooks, and bring forth those we protect. If you were to live here, you would become their meals.’ So we could not live there.

It's pretty clearly beneath the oceans, not high above in the storm, so even though there is rain in a highstorm, I have had a hard time recently in accepting that parallel.

[Wreith he/him]

1 minute ago, Pagerunner said:

Yeah, they're well-reasoned associations, and they've been made before. But as of late, I've thought that the gods of the waters don't fit at all with a highstorm.

It's pretty clearly beneath the oceans, not high above in the storm, so even though there is rain in a highstorm, I have had a hard time recently in accepting that parallel.

Yeah. that's a problematic point.
off the top of my head, either of two things is possible:

1. The Horneater migration myth changed much later than the godly association change from storm to water.
2. The god of Water did not betray the Listeners like the other gods. Meaning they really have (at least) four gods and the god of Water just wasn't included in the list of betrayers that we have.

[1stBondsmith he/him]

Although I respect your insights, I do not believe this has to do with Horneater beliefs. I believe something unique to Shinovar is going on. The Shin Mountains feature in too much magical lore to be like other peaks (Girl who looked up, Swiftfoot, no highstorm, all foriegn plants, etc.) I think the spren- plural or singular- are special there, as they seem to form a boundary of epic effect. I think this was a teaser of future things we will learn about Shinovar, but I can see that there were other references to the religion as well, so I am looking for informed speculations about something we only have a dim view of. Was this where the first migration of non-rosharan humans cam after "Destroying" their world? Was it set aside for their welfare, and guarded by spren to keep it isolated? How is the storm stopped; or, is this mythological because the mountains are high enough to physically stop the storm? I rather doubt this, as Szeth surely knows when there is a powerful spren around.

Thanks @Pagerunner, for your input. Are there other references to Shinovar's isolation that might shed light here? I cannot recall any.

[Wreith he/him]

15 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Was this where the first migration of non-rosharan humans cam after "Destroying" their world?

yes

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct... When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

source

 

15 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Was it set aside for their welfare, ...?

this is pretty well established in Oathbringer. No mention of spren guards, though.

 

15 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

How is the storm stopped; or, is this mythological because the mountains are high enough to physically stop the storm?

The storm isn't stopped entirely. We know from Oathbringer that it reaches the Aimian Sea.
also:

Quote

talonnolan

How do the Shin get Stomlight, if the storms are broken up by the mountains before reaching Shinovar?

Brandon Sanderson

An excellent question that you should be asking. (So…RAFO.) Note that they don’t use it as extensively as outlanders do.

Also note that though the storms aren’t as strong there, they do still reach Shin lands, to an extent.

source

 

Also of note is this non-answer

Quote

Argent

Is the Earth-like biome in Shinovar a product solely of environmental factors (e.g. shelter from the highstorms), or is there a magical component as well?

Brandon Sanderson

On Roshar, the environment and magic are so intertwined, environmental factors ARE magical components.

Argent

Interesting, hadn't really thought of it this way, but much of the environment and its events depend on magic - highstorms, plant and animal life, crem and water deposits, and those are just off the top of my head. Was it this way before the Shards showed up, or is this a change they caused (intentionally or not)?

Brandon Sanderson

This will eventually be revealed.

source

 

[1stBondsmith he/him]

2 hours ago, Wreith said:

this is pretty well established in Oathbringer. No mention of spren guards, though.

It was the role of guards that I wondered about.

 

2 hours ago, Wreith said:

The storm isn't stopped entirely. We know from Oathbringer that it reaches the Aimian Sea.
also:

There is a permanent storm there, not the Highstorm. Controlled differently depending on people trying to get to the island.

"they reach Shin lands, to an extent". Yes, but as rain? With any stormlight? Does the Stormfather pass the mountains (like the place Kaladin meets him in twice after the stormwall passes).

It is different here. I want to know how the Mountain Spren are part of this. I think we must just wait and RAFO.

[Corax]

It might be fair to guess that at least there isn't a significant amount of crem dropped by the highstorms in Shinovar, or we wouldn't have deep soil and wide fields of grassland.

I personally suspect that the lack of crem is part of the reason for a lack of visible spren. (I imagine it gives minor substance to their very limited physical aspects, and may be what Wyndle's vines crunble into).