Unlicensed Hemalurgist he/him Posted July 22, 2018 Posted July 22, 2018 Hey all. So this is a quick speculation thread based on some stuff I was thinking about in the shower after re-reading Elantris and some WoBs about nicrosil. The way interplay between all these different forms of Investiture is hinted at is fascinating. I've been a casual poster here for a while, but this is my first foray into actual speculation. If what I'm saying has any spoilers in it (I don't think it does, but I could be wrong), feel free to mark it as such. Also, I'm not really up-to-date on the latest Realmantic lingo, so bear with me. Anyway, as far as I'm aware, Feruchemical Nicrosil stores Investiture. In terms of Scadrial magic systems, this usually means storing the Investiture an Allomancer or Feruchemist uses to fuel their other abilities, with the ability to tap it at a greater rate to get more of that power over a shorter duration. However, we know from various WoBs that a nicrosilmind can stor other forms of Investiture from other worlds, including Divine Breaths from Nalthis or the ability to use the Surges of the Knights Radiant (whether this refers to storing the Nahel bond or Stormlight is unclear). We also know that in Selish magics, the Dor is heavily linked to location, because of the Dor being essentially the shattered corpses of two gods dumped in the Cognitive Realm by Odium. This means there is a sharp drop-off in the power of Selish magics the farther they get away from their particular region-- most notably in AonDor and Forgery, with the Dakhor monks being a little better at this, for currently-unknown reasons. So my hypothetical is this: Let's say I have nicrosilmind--whether I'm an actual Soulbearer or just using an unsealed nicrosilmind is an irrelevant distinction at this stage. If I were on Sel, could I store Investiture from the Dor in my nicrosilmind and take it with me, to fuel Selish magic with it? If I were an Elantrian or Dakhor monk on another world, could I tap that nicrosilmind to increase the power of my Aons/Bone-twisties to the level they would be closer to home? A sort of Dor-battery or Dor-transformer? Or is there something I'm missing in my analysis. Be gentle.
Calderis he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) The way that I understand it, I don't think that this would work. That said obviously I could be wrong here. The way that I understand it, is that nicrosil stores the investiture from your spiritweb that grants an ability. Not the fuel for that ability itself. So with a coinshot for instance, holding an unsealed nicrosil mind, they would have the ability granted to them which would allow them to store their steel Allomancy into a nicrosilmind. Storing at 100% they would effectively no longer be a coinshot while storing. They could not burn steel. Then while tapping they would be able to push more strongly than normal. On Sel, I think this would translate to storing "Elantrianess." Storing actual fuel in a nicrosilmind would be possible... But by this one about Stormlight it sounds like it would be somewhat more difficult. Quote shoeties Since Stormlight and Breath are both investiture, would it be possible to use Nightblood with the former rather than the latter? Would it be possible to store Stormlight in metal using Feruchemy? Brandon Sanderson Mixing the magics is possible, but some are easier and more natural than other. Feeding Stormlight to Nightblood is easy. Storing stormlight in metal is tough. source Edited July 23, 2018 by Calderis
Kramerfarve Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Do we know at what rate power decreases with distance from Elantris, Calderis?
Calderis he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Like an actual graph or measurement? No. All we've got is the difference in strength between Aons used in Elantris and those used in Teod.
Kramerfarve Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) If you get out what you put in, then if you stored 100% of elantrianness and tapped it later at a given distance from Elantris, it would most likely just double whatever your power is at that location. The only problem with this is if you are “more” elantrian in Elantris then it would be the strength at your distance plus the strength of an Elantrian in Elantris Edited July 23, 2018 by Kramerfarve Thought of something
+Sorana she/her Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said: If you get out what you put in, then if you stored 100% of elantrianness and tapped it later at a given distance from Elantris, it would most likely just double whatever your power is at that location. The only problem with this is if you are “more” elantrian in Elantris then it would be the strength at your distance plus the strength of an Elantrian in Elantris That just sparked a question: If you really stored 100% elantrianness, will you look like a normal person while storing?
Nohadon he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 When it comes to nicrocil interacting with the dor. Here are the options I can see 1) You get an elantrian to store individual Aons inside the nicrocilmind to be tapped and used later 2) You get an elantrian (or go to the cognitive realm with one) to store the pure investiture residing inside the elantrian to tap it later and briefly become an elantrian (I don't like this option, it seems too convoluted) 3) You get an elantrian to store THEIR CONNECTION to the dor with (I think duralumin?) a duraluminmind, that can be tapped later to charge Aons and breifly be able to draw aons, as you have a strong spiritual connection to the dor. Maybe you would have to use aluminium feruchemy as well, storing the identity of the elantrian as well to be able to draw Aons. Additionally, if a feruchemist became an elantrian (or vice versa) you could fill a duraluminmind to become full elantrian briefly off-world It can be 1 + 3 together or just number 2. I view feruchemy + AonDor as a way to circumvent the geographic restrictions that are caused by the investiture being in the cognitive realm. 2 minutes ago, Sorana said: That just sparked a question: If you really stored 100% elantrianness, will you look like a normal person while storing? I imagine you would look like a normal person while storing your connection to the dor. As you wouldn't be an elantrian for a time, would that make an elantrian rapidly age similar to the Lord Ruler if they were hundreds of years old? 1
+Sorana she/her Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Nohadon said: I imagine you would look like a normal person while storing your connection to the dor. As you wouldn't be an elantrian for a time, would that make an elantrian rapidly age similar to the Lord Ruler if they were hundreds of years old? I think that could be possible. We know that the Dor sustains the body of the Elantrians, without it they deteriorate. So a young Elantrian maybe simply looks normal and an old one would age... Edited July 23, 2018 by Sorana
Quantus he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Sorana said: I think that could be possible. We know that the Dor sustains the body of the Elantrians, without it they deteriorate. So a young Elantrian maybe simply looks normal and an old one would age... I dunno, when that method/connection was broken they still didnt age, they just also didnt get the rest of their enhancement Package. To the OP: Short answer is that I think it would work, but only if the Soulbearer had first actually managed, separately and on their own, to get access to the other planet's Magic. In that I think it would be far easier to get to Roshar and obtain a Nahel Bond than to qualify for any of the Dor magics (Unless Spikes), which all seem to require you to be an actual native just like Scadrial (if for different reasons).
Calderis he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 30 minutes ago, Quantus said: I dunno, when that method/connection was broken they still didnt age, they just also didnt get the rest of their enhancement Package The transformation was incomplete, but the Dor was still sustaining them. They were capable of living without food or a heatbeat. Storing what makes them Elantrian would be different. They would be returned "normal"
Quantus he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 My understanding is that the Elantrian upgrade involves a decent sized addition to your SpiritWeb (based on the WOB that there is more for a Spike to get from them than most). So that being the case, how much of all that can you temporarily "Store" before you'd actually have to carve the whole thing off via Hemalurgy?
Calderis he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Quantus said: My understanding is that the Elantrian upgrade involves a decent sized addition to your SpiritWeb (based on the WOB that there is more for a Spike to get from them than most). So that being the case, how much of all that can you temporarily "Store" before you'd actually have to carve the whole thing off via Hemalurgy? It only takes one spike to steal the what makes someone an Elantrian. The problem is that you need a second spike because that does nothing unless you also steal the connection to Arelon. Quote mail-mi (paraphrased) Could you spike Elantrian-ness? Like, could you Hemalurgically spike Elantrian-ness? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Theoretically, yes. mail-mi (paraphrased) Could you out of a Reod Elantrian? The zombie ones? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Um, yes you could. mail-mi (paraphrased) You could? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) So what you would be spiking there is their Connection to...to the planet, first. That's gonna be the big important thing. So you're going to overwrite your Connection. Um, and then you're going to....it's going to be a complicated process because you're going to have to spike the actual ability to have been transformed, that's gonna be harder. mail-mi (paraphrased) Okay. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Does that make sense? mail-mi (paraphrased) Yeah, so it's gonna take two spikes. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It's gonna take two spikes. mail-mi (paraphrased) Alright. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) And you gonna have to get the right Connection to the right place. Let's say you spike somebody from MaiPon, and then you spike an Elantrian, you're not going to be able to use it, you're not connected to the right area. source Storing being an Elantrian should be no different than storing anything else in nicrosil. It would be a problem only in the form of medallions, where you could tap that and get nothing without the additional connection. Edited July 23, 2018 by Calderis 2
Quantus he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, Calderis said: It only takes one spike to steal the what makes someone an Elantrian. The problem is that you need a second spike because that does nothing unless you also steal the connection to Arelon. Storing being an Elantrian should be no different than storing anything else in nicrosil. It would be a problem only in the form of medallions, where you could tap that and get nothing without the additional connection. OK, so one Spike to reWrite your spirit-web to properly use the Dor, and a second Spike to provide the Connection actually access it?
Calderis he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Quantus said: OK, so one Spike to reWrite your spirit-web to properly use the Dor, and a second Spike to provide the Connection actually access it? Effectively yes. It's Sel, so I don't know for sure whether the connection grants access, or just enables the transformation which itself grants access. But either way its like having a lock and a deadbolt on your door with separate keys. You need both to actually open the thing. Edited July 23, 2018 by Calderis 1
Quantus he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Calderis said: Effectively yes. It's Sel, so I don't know for sure whether the connection grants access, or just enables the transformation which itself grants access. But either way its like having a lock and a deadbolt on your door with separate keys. You need both to actually open the thing. I think the Connection question could be answered depending on how it behaves with only one. My first reaction was to equate it to the metallic arts Compounding hack which has the concept that there is an internal "machine" that does the work, and a separate piece that is the Power Feed; so here is would be a matter of needing to Spike the actual Elantrian-ness (as distinct from Forgery or any other Selish magic), and separately spike a Connection to the world that would let you access the Dor. So what happens if you only have the Enlantrianism without the Connection? Would you get transformed into an Elantrian but only have access to the Door while on Sel? Or would the Spiked spiritweb Reject you because it requires Selish sDNA more specifically than most? That doesnt feel right, in comparison to Scadrial that's also inborn, but then that's a living hexadiety, not the selish zombiegodcorpsestorm that has it's own location rules. Would you get stuck half-way as we saw in the novel, which in many ways was an Elantrian without batteries? I think Id lean toward that, the scarred sigil mirrors the lack of energy access to me, though I think they described it less as a lack of energy and more as a partial transformation that was interrupted, so I couldnt say where the line would fall.
MountainKing Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 The other Selish magics that we know of should only require one spike to steal from since anyone with Connection to the corresponding country can use that magic.
Unlicensed Hemalurgist he/him Posted July 23, 2018 Author Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, MountainKing said: The other Selish magics that we know of should only require one spike to steal from since anyone with Connection to the corresponding country can use that magic. Which brings up an interesting (if disturbing) hypothetical: if a Dakhor monk stored his Connection to Fjordell [sic?] in a duraluminmind, would his bones stay twisted? Or would they go back to normal, only to twist painfully back into shape all at once when the duraluminmind was tapped? Edited July 24, 2018 by Unlicensed Hemalurgist
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