SilverTiger she/her Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 Just now, Fatikis said: Extremely unlikely. Silver is a key element in the survival of the people. If it was a silver alloy someone would know. They wouldn't refer to it as simply silver because the difference between naturally occurring silver and the alloy would be the difference between life and death. Yes, but chemically pure silver does not naturally occur. It may be mostly silver, but it still has trace amounts of other elements. And a society with Threnody's level of science/technology would not have the necessary knowledge or equipment to purify it. Hence, my suggestion that Threnody's silver naturally occurs containing trace amounts of another substance that gives it its weird properties, said substance being NOT present on other worlds or in other worlds' silver. This mystery substance could be simply be another chemical element (i.e. iridium, which naturally occurs in meteors but not on Earth) that does not naturally occur, or is very rare, on other planets, or something stranger, such as Ambition's god-metal or another form of Ambition's Investiture.
Fatikis he/him Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, SilverTiger said: Yes, but chemically pure silver does not naturally occur. It may be mostly silver, but it still has trace amounts of other elements. And a society with Threnody's level of science/technology would not have the necessary knowledge or equipment to purify it. Hence, my suggestion that Threnody's silver naturally occurs containing trace amounts of another substance that gives it its weird properties, said substance being NOT present on other worlds or in other worlds' silver. This mystery substance could be simply be another chemical element (i.e. iridium, which naturally occurs in meteors but not on Earth) that does not naturally occur, or is very rare, on other planets, or something stranger, such as Ambition's god-metal or another form of Ambition's Investiture. Again you are then relying on specific trace metals naturally occurring in your silver. For something this important to life you would not call it silver. As all silver would not have this identical natural impurity. We know that in allomancy slightly incorrect alloys can be burned, but it can make you sick. The impurities likely will not stop any silver effects while pure silver may be more effective. It is a huge leap of faith that silver is anything but exactly what we have been told. We have no reason to not take him at his word. Silver pops up often in odd places in the cosmere. It more than likely has properties cosmere wide similar to aluminum. Edited May 10, 2018 by Fatikis 1
SilverTiger she/her Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 Just now, Fatikis said: Again you are then relying on specific trace metals naturally occurring in your silver. For something this important to life you would not call it silver. As all silver would not have this natural impurity. The impurity level is also incredibly low. We know that in allomancy incorrect alloys can be burned, but it can make you sick. The impurities likely will not stop any silver effects while pure silver may be more effective. It is a huge leap of faith that silver is anything but exactly what we have been told. We have no reason to not take him at his word. What I'm trying to get at is that all the silver on Threnody naturally occurs with trace amounts of a specific substance that is not present on other worlds, therefore giving Threnody's silver its special property of Shade-killing. If it is mostly silver (trace amounts=very little), then it is still silver and has the properties of silver. And it is only a theory. We have no idea what idea is correct, only theories and ideas. This theory of mine is reasonable. I have suggested it to help the overall discussion on Threnody's Shades, silver, and strange properties of both.
MountainKing Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 32 minutes ago, Fatikis said: Extremely unlikely. Silver is a key element in the survival of the people. If it was a silver alloy someone would know. They wouldn't refer to it as simply silver because the difference between naturally occurring silver and the alloy would be the difference between life and death. They also were not describing the item as silver. They were calling it silver. There is a huge difference. In the real world it is pretty obvious if someone is referring to a silver color or silver. Here the context heavily implies they are referring to silver the material. There is no evidence that it is not silver. Not to picky, but I feel that is it was 95% silver is would still be called silver. 1
Fatikis he/him Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, MountainKing said: Not to picky, but I feel that is it was 95% silver is would still be called silver. It wouldn't. The duralumin used in the Metallic Arts is ninety-six percent aluminum, four percent copper. 1
SilverTiger she/her Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 16 hours ago, Fatikis said: It wouldn't. The duralumin used in the Metallic Arts is ninety-six percent aluminum, four percent copper. That's because duralumin is an allomantic metal, and therefore needs a name of its own. Most of the things people have that are made of silver, are actually made of sterling silver, which is 92% silver and 8% copper (or nickel, or zinc), and yet we still call it silver. Moreover, pure silver is much too soft to be made into a viable weapon or tool. Also, silver tarnishes. In Shadows for Silence, it never mentioned silver tarnishing (sterling silver tarnishes, too). Since it tarnishes pretty quickly, then they would have had to spend a lot of time polishing it. A lot of time (hours, even).
Fatikis he/him Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 1 minute ago, SilverTiger said: That's because duralumin is an allomantic metal, and therefore needs a name of its own. Most of the things people have that are made of silver, are actually made of sterling silver, which is 92% silver and 8% copper (or nickel, or zinc), and yet we still call it silver. Moreover, pure silver is much too soft to be made into a viable weapon or tool. Also, silver tarnishes. In Shadows for Silence, it never mentioned silver tarnishing (sterling silver tarnishes, too). Since it tarnishes pretty quickly, then they would have had to spend a lot of time polishing it. A lot of time (hours, even). We call things that are sterling silver sterling silver. We also aren't depending our lives on specific impurities in the metal. If silver doesn't save your life and sterling silver does you are not going to confuse the two terms. If silver alloy it is preventing your death you sure as rust need a specific name for it. You aren't going to encounter tarnish when your silver is turning to dust constantly. You aren't noticing tarnish on silver barriers or care. You wouldn't experience this with a blade in which you are taking care of. Tarnish was not important to the story so it was not included. Heck they could be using some alloys for stronger metal, but the alloy is still not what is important. The silver is what is mentioned. The silver is what is affecting the shades. There is literally no reason to not believe what we are told here. Why are you so sure silver is not the cause of this?
SilverTiger she/her Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, Fatikis said: We call things that are sterling silver sterling silver. We also aren't depending our lives on specific impurities in the metal. If silver doesn't save your life and sterling silver does you are not going to confuse the two terms. If silver alloy it is preventing your death you sure as rust need a specific name for it. You aren't going to encounter tarnish when your silver is turning to dust constantly. You aren't noticing tarnish on silver barriers or care. You wouldn't experience this with a blade in which you are taking care of. Tarnish was not important to the story so it was not included. Heck they could be using some alloys for stronger metal, but the alloy is still not what is important. The silver is what is mentioned. The silver is what is affecting the shades. There is literally no reason to not believe what we are told here. Why are you so sure silver is not the cause of this? Ugh. What I am attempting to point out to you, is that the Threnodites do not have pure silver. Zip, zero, zilch. Why? Because they don't have the technological level to make pure silver. Also, they would sure as hell notice tarnish. Tarnish is like rust, or green patina on copper. It turns silver a blackish color, which they would definitely notice. And didn't Silence walk into a room/hideout that was plated with shiny silver? That kind of thing would tarnish is a week. Less than. Yes, the silver that they are using is effecting the Shades. My THEORY is that the silver they use, the silver present and naturally occurring on Threnody, has trace amounts of another material in it that is giving the Threnodite silver its strange properties. Since this mystery material is only present in trace amounts (say, 3% or less), it does not have much effect of the silver's appearance or other properties. No, I'm not at all sure. It is a theory, just like every idea we have about Threnody's silver, Shades, great evil, etc., is a theory. And it no more or less valid than other theories. The silver on Threnody could be Ambition's godmetal for all we know.
Fatikis he/him Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, SilverTiger said: Ugh. What I am attempting to point out to you, is that the Threnodites do not have pure silver. Zip, zero, zilch. Why? Because they don't have the technological level to make pure silver. Fine they don't have pure silver. Even though yes they are at a time where they could process silver to near purity probably a 99% level. That doesn't mean all silver on Threnody is a very specific alloy that is luckily able to affect shades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refining_(metallurgy) Quote Also, they would sure as hell notice tarnish. Tarnish is like rust, or green patina on copper. It turns silver a blackish color, which they would definitely notice. And didn't Silence walk into a room/hideout that was plated with shiny silver? That kind of thing would tarnish is a week. Less than. The silver is being constantly replaced. Also it is near impossible to predict the speed of tarnish without know the temperature and humidity. In some place silver not being handled can take years to tarnish. Quote Yes, the silver that they are using is effecting the Shades. My THEORY is that the silver they use, the silver present and naturally occurring on Threnody, has trace amounts of another material in it that is giving the Threnodite silver its strange properties. Since this mystery material is only present in trace amounts (say, 3% or less), it does not have much effect of the silver's appearance or other properties. It just isn't. As I pointed out many time you then are relying on your silver having specific trace metals to work. ALL silver is not going to have the same impurities. This would mean some silver would not work. As all silver would not work you would have a very specific name for the silver alloy that does work. Quote No, I'm not at all sure. It is a theory, just like every idea we have about Threnody's silver, Shades, great evil, etc., is a theory. And it no more or less valid than other theories. The silver on Threnody could be Ambition's godmetal for all we know. It actually is less valid. It literally is unsupported by evidence, and it directly is contradicted by the written material. All current Godmetals are new metals that don't exist on Earth. Edited May 11, 2018 by Fatikis
SilverTiger she/her Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Fatikis said: Fine they don't have pure silver. Even though yes they are at a time where they could process silver to near purity probably a 99% level. That doesn't mean all silver on Threnody is a very specific alloy that is luckily able to affect shades. The silver is being constantly replaced. Also it is near impossible to predict the speed of tarnish without know the temperature and humidity. In some place silver not being handled can take years to tarnish. It just isn't. As I pointed out many time you then are relying on your silver having specific trace metals to work. ALL silver is not going to have the same impurities. This would mean some silver would not work. As all silver would not work you would have a very specific name for the silver alloy that does work. It actually is less valid. It literally is unsupported by evidence, and it directly is contradicted by the written material. Actually, no, the likelihood of them being able to make pure is silver is highly unlikely, given the equipment and knowledge necessary. We have no idea where all the Threnodite's silver is coming from, except that it is being mined in the mountains. It is possible that all the silver is coming from a single, massive deposit below ground. Or, all the silver on Threnody, or that continent of Threnody, could have naturally formed containing a certain trace element. It is possible- most silver metal that naturally occurs on Earth in a metallic form, that is recognizably silver, contain traces amounts of gold and copper. No, it is not less valid. We have no evidence to the contrary. I have repeatedly read Shadows for Silence, nothing in it contradicts this theory. It is a theory, nothing more. It is reasonable and possible. Yes, I'm relying on it all containing a certain trace element to work, but it is entirely possible that all the silver on Threnody contains a certain trace element, while silver not found on Threnody does not contain said trace element.
Fatikis he/him Posted May 11, 2018 Posted May 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, SilverTiger said: Actually, no, the likelihood of them being able to make pure is silver is highly unlikely, given the equipment and knowledge necessary. If you read what I said. They could have very near pure silver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refining_(metallurgy) Silver extraction does not require advanced technology. It isn't going to be 100% pure but it is going to be VERY pure. Quote No, it is not less valid. We have no evidence to the contrary. I have repeatedly read Shadows for Silence, nothing in it contradicts this theory. It is a theory, nothing more. It is reasonable and possible. Yes, I'm relying on it all containing a certain trace element to work, but it is entirely possible that all the silver on Threnody contains a certain trace element, while silver not found on Threnody does not contain said trace element. Nothing contradicts unicorns either. That does not mean unicorns are a valid theory. If you'd like to keep believe this it is fine. I'm just saying there is literally no evidence for the theory, and the book directly contradicts that it is anything but silver by telling us it is silver.
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