[OB] Stormlight Archives series... love/hate relationship with these books

[Majestic_US]

 

First off, I'm a fan of Brandon's work.  And I've met the guy and like him as a person as well.  I think his work in the Wheel of Time was perhaps the best of the entire series.

But I'm really struggling to like the Stormlight Archive series.  I keep pondering why this is.  There are definitely some positives and some big negatives.  But here's how it breaks down for me:

Positives:

Jasnah.  Great character.  Reminds you of Moiraine Damodred (WoT).  Competent, thoughtful, coherent, well-written.  A bit cold and clinical at times, but that's part of her charm.  She understands what the stakes are and puts the mission of saving the world ahead of everything and everyone else.  Best character in the series by far.  Frankly the books would have been SO, SO much better if she were the main character instead of Kaladin.

Gavilar.  Seemed like a really good character that had the potential to be great.  Wish we had more time with him.

Navani.  Very good character.  But sadly there isn't much in the books from her perspective so it's hard to know what she's really all about and what she's thinking about people and events.

Taravangian.  The whole devious plot with him and his people is a bit difficult to follow and unwind.  But it's still a pretty fascinating concept and it's interesting to watch it play out.  Particularly as Taravangian grows to like Dalinor even as he is trying to ruin him.

Alethi.  Brandon does a pretty good job of establishing their culture and history in a way that feels real and believable.  They may not be terribly likable as a people and their religious beliefs are a mess, but overall it comes together pretty well.

Negatives:

Three worlds.  I get what he was trying to do with the Physical/Mental/Spiritual realms.  But it just doesn't work.  It's not interesting.  It usually feels like a distraction and a waste of pages when time is spent dealing with it (particularly the Mental realm and the silly glass beads and inverse land/water layout).  It feels hollow and uninteresting and doesn't feel believable.

Spren.  They just add so little and take up so many pages.  While some of the primary spren (like Syl and Pattern) are actually good characters and more appealing than their human counterparts, overall the concept of the spren just doesn't work (as with the Three Worlds comments above).

Kaladin.  This guy is the biggest tool.  It isn't often that I find myself constantly hoping the main character in a big series is killed off, but that's where I am with him.  He was actually good in the first book as they did the bridge man story.  But after he got out of that situation he's been insufferable.  His broody, self-pitying, stubborn, emo act is SO TIRED.  God just go die somewhere and let Syl find a more worthy human already.  The whole bridge 4 crew got old fast after they got their freedom.

Dalinor.  Once his background was fully exposed and it was clear what kind of a horrible monster he was for his whole adult life, how can anyone empathize with or root for this guy anymore?  Even if "The Thrill" was some kind of spren possession orchestrated by Odium, it just doesn't change what he did.  And people might argue that is the whole point of his story arc and how he's growing into this great figure who can resist Odium... and that's fine, but it doesn't change anything.  Too much blood on his hands.  It's one thing to have a flawed hero.  Heck even a deeply flawed hero.  But Brandon went too far here and established Dalinor as a sadistic, bloodthirsty, mass-murderer with an addiction to killing.  I find that he's really beyond redemption as the protagonist of the series.  Even if I genuinely like the person he has become... it's too late for him.

Shallan.  I liked her so much early in the series.  But as the character starts developing her multiple personalities disorder, she becomes increasingly difficult to like or root for.  And is anyone else yet sick of her fawning over Kaladin?  Even right in front of Adolin?  Or sick of how she disrespects Jasnah constantly?  She feels like a character that is the "author's favorite" and gets unreasonably favorable treatment and never the comeuppance that she so richly deserves.  So you had a difficult upbringing and have big skeletons in your closet?  Get over it stupid, the world is about to end and there are plenty of people out there who were much worse off than you ever were.

[Khyrindor he/him]

You are, of course, entitled to opinions, and I'm not going to argue characters with you. However, I will bring to mind some important facts about the "Three Realms" business.

 

You may know (or may not) that Brandon's epic fantasy novels take place in a shared universe (Stormlight Archive included). The Three Realms are the basis of this shared universe. In the Cognitive Realm, which you know from reading SA, is made and stretched based on how intelligent minds perceive it. Therefore, space between planets greatly diminishes, allowing for people to literally walk from planet to planet. Many of the complex mechanics of the magic systems come down to the interactions in the Spiritual Realm, such as Connection, Identity, and Fortune (or future-sight). If you've only read Stormlight Archive, I suppose I can see that the Three Realms doesn't add to that individual story, but suffice it to say it isn't built solely around that narrative. I agree that their time there was stretched out a bit too long in Oathbringer.

Welcome to the Shard! Please let me know if you have questions or if you already know all this stuff.

Edit: Reporting to Admins to move this thread to Oathbringer sub-forum, this really should not be untagged.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Khyrindor

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Welcome! I hope that you will grow more fond of SA as time goes on. I just want to adress some things here real quick:

-The Realms: Just want to second @Khyrindor here, they are important for so much more than just Stormlight. And without them, Brandon couldn't have magic systems as complex as he has, because the entirety of those are built on the Realms.

-Dalinar: I have seen those complaints about him before, and I just can't bring myself to agree with them. I think that redemption and forgiveness should be, and is, possible at all times. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a reason to grow and change and be better. If Dalinar is beyond redemption, he has no reason to be good. 

-Shallan & Jasnah: I just found it funny that you find Shallans disrespect toward Jasnah irritating. I feel the opposite. I think Jasnah can be disrespectful towards people, and easily gets away with it, both in the story, and in the fandom. So while Shallan should learn from Jasnah, and treat her with respect, Jasnah should try to treat others, such as Shallan or Kaladin a little better than she does.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

As the others said, welcome! And once again, you're entitled to your own opinion and I find it interesting to see from your viewpoint, though I do disagree on some things.... which is why my opinion is different to yours, of course!

The Realms - As the posters above have said, while the Realms haven't been mentioned nearly as much, if at all, in Brandon's other Cosmere works, they exist throughout all of them, and are just more important/relevant to the current plot in the Stormlight Archive. Though I will say that to address your mention of the Cognitive Realm being uninteresting with the glass beads and inverted land/water, that it's meant to be a reflection of human perception, and that in other areas of the Cognitive Realm things look very different. Secret History shows us what it looks like in Scadrial/Mistborn, for example, so you might find the description there a bit more interesting.

Spren - I can see where you're coming from with them seeming to be a waste of focus, though I will say I disagree with the idea of them being uninteresting, from a worldbuilding perspective alone, I find the idea that personifications of emotions/feelings given form/images by the underlying magic of the universe an interesting one, since it makes me wonder how being able to see someone's emotions like that would affect cultures and interactions between people. And from a visual standpoint, it breathes life to my mental image of Roshar and makes it more vibrant... For myself I find that it helps being the world to life more, adds flavour for it, though I can see where you're coming from with them being distracting or boring, I have sometimes found myself thinking "I don't care about these spren, I get what you're trying to do in helping us understand the mechanics of the world etc but please get back to the interesting things."

Kaladin - I'm hardly impartial here, but I have to say I disagree with quite a bit of what you say about him... I agree that he can sometimes (quite often in fact) be a complete bloody tool, though I feel like a decent amount of those times are inadvertant, and he's just naturally gruff/terse without realising it. He certainly does have chips on his shoulders that I think he could make more progress towards getting past, but people don't change quickly, and it HAS only been a year or two so far in the books. As someone who suffers with depression himself, I also don't feel like his broodiness is tiring, but of course it resonates with me and is very relatable with how he describes the darkness/numbness etc. I do agree that it can get a bit repetetive, but to be fair that's realistic, at least with my own experiences with my depression. I would also point towards Brandon's annotations towards Sazed in the Mistborn novels, particularly the later ones, where he suffers from depression himself and Brandon comments on how hard it was to find a balance, and how Sazed was just plain boring to read about most of the time, because he's inactive and so passive, especially in earlier drafts. I feel like in comparison, Kaladin is a lot more interesting with how active he is, and his struggles with his depression can (not always) make for an interesting conflict with his tasks and building momentum towards getting out of a depressive spiral.

Dalinar - I do agree that it can be hard to empathise with him after finding out his backstory, but I feel that's what makes it so powerful, since we see Dalinar struggle to become the man he is from the moment we see him. We're first told of him as a drunken lout who was too sloshed to be able to help his brother against an assassin, and then the next time we see him we slowly learn that he's pretty much now the only honourable man in the Highprinces, or at least the only one with focus and perspective, and his struggles to rise and be better than what he, and everyone was. The overarching theme of the Cosmere is death and rebirth, with the emphasis on rebirth, and so the arc of someone changing to be better than they were makes sense to me for a central character, and when you find out Dalinar's backstory it can be a punch to the gut since we knew he was bloodthirsty and a conqueror, but not to the extent we did, since we hear second hand accounts of how amazing he was which can temper our expectations. I wouldn't say, however, that Dalinar is (or rather, was) addicted to killing, more that he was addicted to battle, the Thrill and challenge, like an adrenaline addict... Albeit one who came from a war-focused society and who was born as a general with a brother who had ambitions of conquest and unity. He wasn't particularly sadistic, at least to me, outside of the Rift, but very callous. However I have to disagree with the assertation that he's beyond redemption or being able to care about, since people can change, and we see that Dalinar has. Compare him to Sadeas, who I have no sympathy for, who was, I would argue, more like the image you seem to have of Dalinar, which is why it was so satisfying to see what happened to him at the end of WoR for me.

Shallan - She's certainly not my favourite of the characters, and hell when I was reading WoK for the first time I was eager to get past her segments and back to Kaladin and Dalinar, who I found much more interesting/relatable, though when we find out more about her it completely recontextualised her earlier scenes for me and made them more interesting... With regards to her story seeming a little boring/stagnant compared to the earlier series, and when we delve into her mental issues/state it can seem rather repetitive, but I think that's due to the fact that something like this, especially when the characters are dealing with it more or less by themselves (Not many psychologists in Roshar, or at least not many available to them at present...) can take a very long time. Couple that with the frequent viewpoints from Shallan and it can seem like they're overriding what's happening in the moment around them, but that's more of an issue with Brandon's writing style, I feel, since his characters tend to lean towards introspection, and thinking about things a lot, considering a situation etc. As for her fawning over Kaladin, I actually wasn't sick of it, more that I felt it wasn't explored enough by the end of Oathbringer, it deserved to be explored and confronted more properly. (But that, and my hopes that somehow Shallan, Kaladin and Adolin will end up in a polyamourous relationship with each other, is a whoooooole 'nother topic, haha!) I can see where you're coming from with the "author's favourite" comment, though I don't necessarily agree. I do agree that there have been a marked lack of consequences for her and Adolin compared to Dalinar or Kaladin, but it could simply be that that will be explored in the next book, since not everything can be fit into one... Her treatment of Jasnah... I'm torn there myself, honestly, since I can see where she's coming from, and Jasnah certainly, for the most part, fails to see that her ward has grown, and had to because she wasn't there to bascially be her safety net and deal with things... But at the same time Shallan should have had a discussion with her from the start and not simply assumed her subservience to her once again, and been more bold and spoke her mind. Of course I can understand where she's coming from with that, it's something she struggles with. And yes, I agree that she should accept the fact of her skeletons and that she had no choice, for example that her father, no matter how kind he may have been, absolutely deserved what he got by the end of it, at least to me. But of course she had repressed those memories for the longest time and is slowly coming to terms with them, which is understandable. Let's not forget, "get over it" is easy to say, but very hard to do. I do agree that she could use a bit more perspective and focus, but of course that could simply be because focusing too much on the scope of it would overwhelm her or make her make mistakes... though perhaps I'm being generous.

 

In summary, welcome, you bring up interesting points, though I disagree with quite a few of them, and I'm interested to see what you think of other parts/characters ^^

Edited April 18, 2018 by Rawrbert
Added boldness so it's not QUITE so wall-of-text-y

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

1 hour ago, Rawrbert said:

a complete bloody tool

Can someone explain what tool means in this context? Toaster confused...

[Ammanas]

@Toaster Retribution Its american slang; basically means someone is a jerk.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Just now, Ammanas said:

@Toaster Retribution Its american slang; basically means someone is a jerk.

Thanks!

[Nathrangking he/him]

18 hours ago, Majestic_US said:

 

First off, I'm a fan of Brandon's work.  And I've met the guy and like him as a person as well.  I think his work in the Wheel of Time was perhaps the best of the entire series.

But I'm really struggling to like the Stormlight Archive series.  I keep pondering why this is.  There are definitely some positives and some big negatives.  But here's how it breaks down for me:

Positives:

Jasnah.  Great character.  Reminds you of Moiraine Damodred (WoT).  Competent, thoughtful, coherent, well-written.  A bit cold and clinical at times, but that's part of her charm.  She understands what the stakes are and puts the mission of saving the world ahead of everything and everyone else.  Best character in the series by far.  Frankly the books would have been SO, SO much better if she were the main character instead of Kaladin.

Gavilar.  Seemed like a really good character that had the potential to be great.  Wish we had more time with him.

Navani.  Very good character.  But sadly there isn't much in the books from her perspective so it's hard to know what she's really all about and what she's thinking about people and events.

Taravangian.  The whole devious plot with him and his people is a bit difficult to follow and unwind.  But it's still a pretty fascinating concept and it's interesting to watch it play out.  Particularly as Taravangian grows to like Dalinor even as he is trying to ruin him.

Alethi.  Brandon does a pretty good job of establishing their culture and history in a way that feels real and believable.  They may not be terribly likable as a people and their religious beliefs are a mess, but overall it comes together pretty well.

Negatives:

Three worlds.  I get what he was trying to do with the Physical/Mental/Spiritual realms.  But it just doesn't work.  It's not interesting.  It usually feels like a distraction and a waste of pages when time is spent dealing with it (particularly the Mental realm and the silly glass beads and inverse land/water layout).  It feels hollow and uninteresting and doesn't feel believable.

Spren.  They just add so little and take up so many pages.  While some of the primary spren (like Syl and Pattern) are actually good characters and more appealing than their human counterparts, overall the concept of the spren just doesn't work (as with the Three Worlds comments above).

Kaladin.  This guy is the biggest tool.  It isn't often that I find myself constantly hoping the main character in a big series is killed off, but that's where I am with him.  He was actually good in the first book as they did the bridge man story.  But after he got out of that situation he's been insufferable.  His broody, self-pitying, stubborn, emo act is SO TIRED.  God just go die somewhere and let Syl find a more worthy human already.  The whole bridge 4 crew got old fast after they got their freedom.

Dalinor.  Once his background was fully exposed and it was clear what kind of a horrible monster he was for his whole adult life, how can anyone empathize with or root for this guy anymore?  Even if "The Thrill" was some kind of spren possession orchestrated by Odium, it just doesn't change what he did.  And people might argue that is the whole point of his story arc and how he's growing into this great figure who can resist Odium... and that's fine, but it doesn't change anything.  Too much blood on his hands.  It's one thing to have a flawed hero.  Heck even a deeply flawed hero.  But Brandon went too far here and established Dalinor as a sadistic, bloodthirsty, mass-murderer with an addiction to killing.  I find that he's really beyond redemption as the protagonist of the series.  Even if I genuinely like the person he has become... it's too late for him.

Shallan.  I liked her so much early in the series.  But as the character starts developing her multiple personalities disorder, she becomes increasingly difficult to like or root for.  And is anyone else yet sick of her fawning over Kaladin?  Even right in front of Adolin?  Or sick of how she disrespects Jasnah constantly?  She feels like a character that is the "author's favorite" and gets unreasonably favorable treatment and never the comeuppance that she so richly deserves.  So you had a difficult upbringing and have big skeletons in your closet?  Get over it stupid, the world is about to end and there are plenty of people out there who were much worse off than you ever were.

As @Toaster Retribution and @Khyrindor have pointed out the implications of the three realms are realmatically necessary for the entirety of the cosmere to function in the way that Brandon laid it out. You are naturally entitled to feel the way that you do though personally I have to disagree. The depth that is created by having worlds within worlds makes things far more interesting than simply having a monolayered plane. That there are consequences which can initiate a domino effect on the real world is a great mental exercise. I find it rather believable actually because that is in a very limited way the the manner in which the world works. Perception does impact reality though not to the extreme of the CR. Spren do add an element of emotions impacting reality. The magic has a restraint the likes of which I have never seen before. It sets a real limit on the magic and makes it dependent on the true growth of the person. As far as Kalladin and Shallan I pretty much agree. As far a Dalinar is concerned I again disagree. People can only grow if they learn from their past. Despite the awful things that he did he is truly attempting to make amends for what he did. He is not so emotionless that he is unaffected by the choices that he made. When someone is that repentant why shouldn't they have a opportunity to change and become a better person?

[Chaos he/him]

Hi Majestic! Welcome. It is interesting to hear your perspective. 

I wanted to talk about the Three Realms. Other posters are talking about its cosmere significance, and that is certainly true, but I think by using that explanation in justifying it they are missing the greater writerly point for why the Three Realms are there. 

Ultimately, Brandon likes these high fantasy concepts, and a big part of fantasy is to create that sense of wonder, and that sense of being in a totally other place. I think the reason the Three Realms are there is because it adds to that sense of wonder and makes this world feel vast--similar to how our world can feel impossibly vast. If I were to guess I think this exists to try to evoke this sense of wonder. The spren do a similar thing, to just ask, "wouldn't it be cool if your emotions were visual?" 

I certainly loved how weird and alien Shadesmar was. And I think spren do add a lot to the series. One scene in Way of Kings when Elhokar kills that chasmfiend has a gloryspren around him, and it really solidifies the triumph he felt there. In Oathbringer, where all the gloryspren stream to Dalinar as he summons Honor's Perpendicularity... that's one of the coolest things I've ever read, so I do think these things have a very real positive effect on the books. 

You might feel differently, and that's okay. That's a personal taste thing. But I'd certainly say the multiple realms and the spren add to the story.

[Majestic_US]

Yeah I get what he is aiming for with the three worlds and the spren.  I just think he failed in terms of execution.  I don't believe they add significantly to the story.  I think they are some of the most boring aspects of the books.  And at least for me, the Cognitive realm was so nonsensical that it was jarring (like breaking the 4th wall in a movie).  I couldn't shake the image of the characters just running around in a ginormous ball pit.  If only one of them had dove into the ball pit, then suddenly stuck their head out of the balls and yelled "bazinga", it would have been perfect --

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Majestic_US

[Xtafa]

Maybe its scale that is throwing you off, Spheres in Roshar are mentioned of being roughly thumbnail in size, while the beads in Shadesmar are mentioned as being smaller still.

From a distance it would look no different than water flowing; or if you have ever stepped into loose gravel I imagine it would flow in the same manner. 

[Majestic_US]

Yeah I realize the scale.  But still felt silly to me.  To each their own I guess.

I really wanted to like these books.  One of my best friends is a huge Sanderson fan (has read nearly all of his work) and he quit after book 1.  He didn't like the world building or the story being told.  I tried to tell him he was wrong, that it would get better and it would come together with a big payoff.  Well after 3 books (whose size feels more like 5-6 books), I just don't think it's going to happen for me.  I'll probably hold out for one more book and keep my fingers crossed.

[Xtafa]

Thats fair, as much as I love the series (I may be biased though, it was my first entry into Sanderson's work and cosmere.) not everyone is going to like it. Lucky there are many many stories out there. 

[Yvainnie she/her]

On 4/18/2018 at 6:26 AM, Majestic_US said:

Dalinor.  Once his background was fully exposed and it was clear what kind of a horrible monster he was for his whole adult life, how can anyone empathize with or root for this guy anymore?  Even if "The Thrill" was some kind of spren possession orchestrated by Odium, it just doesn't change what he did.  And people might argue that is the whole point of his story arc and how he's growing into this great figure who can resist Odium... and that's fine, but it doesn't change anything.  Too much blood on his hands.  It's one thing to have a flawed hero.  Heck even a deeply flawed hero.  But Brandon went too far here and established Dalinor as a sadistic, bloodthirsty, mass-murderer with an addiction to killing.  I find that he's really beyond redemption as the protagonist of the series.  Even if I genuinely like the person he has become... it's too late for him.

Shallan.  I liked her so much early in the series.  But as the character starts developing her multiple personalities disorder, she becomes increasingly difficult to like or root for.  And is anyone else yet sick of her fawning over Kaladin?  Even right in front of Adolin?  Or sick of how she disrespects Jasnah constantly?  She feels like a character that is the "author's favorite" and gets unreasonably favorable treatment and never the comeuppance that she so richly deserves.  So you had a difficult upbringing and have big skeletons in your closet?  Get over it stupid, the world is about to end and there are plenty of people out there who were much worse off than you ever were.

 I totally get Kaladin and Shallan opinion. Even though I thing SA is perfect sometimes they were hard to read but I loved them still.

But I admit that I didn’t like Dalinar much but he is one of my favorite now despite his backstory. Am I weird if I seriously cried when he just took the book and went to stand up to Odium? Something is probably wrong with me.

[Leyrann]

2 hours ago, Yvainnie said:

But I admit that I didn’t like Dalinar much but he is one of my favorite now despite his backstory. Am I weird if I seriously cried when he just took the book and went to stand up to Odium? Something is probably wrong with me.

You're not weird. I've heard it from many people on here.

[hypatia she/her]

I've also had problems with Dalinar - so much that right after OB I had to read the scene with Oathbringer from WoK and the bridgecrews to remind me why I loved him.

My problem is not that I see him as sadistic, I had expected a warlord, fighting for something, killing for something, not a disfunctional human being.

Mostly he didn't give a damnation for kingdom or power, he just kills the people Gavilar points at and isn't interested in any reason.

Even the wording - monster, beast, animal, leashed/unleashed - reminds me more of a fierce fighting dog  barely controled.and without any agenda of his own.

The thrill - he isn't the only one who feels the influence, but for me it looks like he was bonded to him similiar to Asuedan and Amaram with another unmade.

I even thought of the idea of Dalinar being the result of the first experiment of his brother with the unmade.

Another thing is redemption - yes, Evi has perhaps forgiven him, but the little Edgedancer in me remembers all his other victims - not the soldiers, the collateral damage, the children of Rathalas, the families - and hopes there will be more in the next books.

One voice less crying in his mind shouldn't be the solution.

[Majestic_US]

 

I agree that the redemption story is good (if a bit overused in fantasy).  But I don't think you get to wipe the slate clean on so many innocent lives being casually destroyed.  If this were a secondary character in the series I think it would be easier to accept and even enjoy.  But Dalinar is supposed to be the main hero, the leader of the forces of light.  And he has a backstory that would make Charles Manson cringe.  I just don't think he is worthy of that role.  Brandon dug too deep of a hole here for him when he started filling in his history with the flashbacks.  And you can't chalk it all up to The Thrill either.  Disappointing because if he'd dialed it down by half on the Dalinar carnage/atrocities, I think he'd actually be a pretty good character.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Majestic_US

[Leyrann]

6 hours ago, Majestic_US said:

 

I agree that the redemption story is good (if a bit overused in fantasy).  But I don't think you get to wipe the slate clean on so many innocent lives being casually destroyed.  If this were a secondary character in the series I think it would be easier to accept and even enjoy.  But Dalinar is supposed to be the main hero, the leader of the forces of light.  And he has a backstory that would make Charles Manson cringe.  I just don't think he is worthy of that role.  Brandon dug too deep of a hole here for him when he started filling in his history with the flashbacks.  And you can't chalk it all up to The Thrill either.  Disappointing because if he'd dialed it down by half on the Dalinar carnage/atrocities, I think he'd actually be a pretty good character.

Okay. You got a better person to lead the forces of good?

Taravangian maybe, who has seceretly sided with Odium?

Queen Fen, who holds no authority over anything but the merchant nation of Thaylena and will never get anything done from the Alethi highprinces?

An Alethi highprince, maybe, who spends his time bickering with the other highprinces? (or, in Sebarial's case, spending his time insulting them)

Maybe Jasnah (paranoid), Shallan (severe mental disorder) or Kaladin (depression, cannot stand even letting a single person under his command die)?

I think we're pretty limited, you know. It's the end of the world, gotta work with what we have, not what we want.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

6 hours ago, Majestic_US said:

 

I agree that the redemption story is good (if a bit overused in fantasy).  But I don't think you get to wipe the slate clean on so many innocent lives being casually destroyed.  If this were a secondary character in the series I think it would be easier to accept and even enjoy.  But Dalinar is supposed to be the main hero, the leader of the forces of light.  And he has a backstory that would make Charles Manson cringe.  I just don't think he is worthy of that role.  Brandon dug too deep of a hole here for him when he started filling in his history with the flashbacks.  And you can't chalk it all up to The Thrill either.  Disappointing because if he'd dialed it down by half on the Dalinar carnage/atrocities, I think he'd actually be a pretty good character.

I disagree. Dalinar is a changed man. He regrets all he has done, and he is now prepared to do everything for human lives. He gives up a Shardblade to save the lives of people who no one cares about. He is ready to die for Roshar. I think his story perfectly shows that he is a new man, and that he shouldn't be hated for his old sins.

@Leyrann Technically, Aladar is better than the other highprinces. But I get your point.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[Willshaping Crasher]

I guess I just don't get your argument against the books.  If you didn't like them, why are you on a fan site?  In addition, why like Gavilar and want him to be explored?  It's like saying "I love the dictator! The younger son, forced by the rules of the society, to follow his lead is the real bastard"  Like Dalinar or hate him.  However, claiming you want to know more about Gavilar, while hating Dalinar just doesn't make sense.

Edit: dang. wrote the same sentence twice.  need sleep

Edited April 20, 2018 by Willshaping Crasher

[Wolven he/him]

You are of course entitled to your opinions and I respect that.  But man oh man I couldn't disagree more on some of this. 

The others have already described the three realms concept better than I could have.  I will just add that I find them absolutely fascinating.  In the first and second book I wasn't sure how I felt about Shadesmar at first.  It seemed a bit weird even for me.  Then I read Oathbringer and I was surprised to find how much I enjoyed the extended stay in Shadesmar.  It is a fascinating place to me especially once it starts to delve into the societies of the spren.  I very much hope that we get to see more.  

The spren I feel add a great deal to the story.  They do not allow for people to hide their emotions, which makes interactions with people so very different in this world.  No doubt it affects the day to day life of the various peoples.  The traders for instance, they more than most would need to become masters of their emotions, or else lose advantages in their deals.  The more intelligent ones are even more interesting of course, and knowing Brandon, we will learn a lot more about the spren and the reasons and meaning behind their existence.  

The things that you don't like about the characters, well, these people are all broken and damaged people.  If they were not, then they could not form the Nahel bond.

Kaladin has become one of my all time favorite characters.  Yes he is often broody, but I would not expect someone who deals with as much depression as he does to be any other way.  The fact that he is able to function at all with all of his emotional baggage is impressive and shows the depths of his strength of character.  Even so he is still flawed and struggles so hard with trying to decide who needs and should have his protection the most.  This is a guy who perhaps cares far to much, and is one day going to have to find a way to temper that or it is going to destroy him.  I hope it doesn't because if the day comes that he decides he is happy, it's going to be beautiful to behold.  

I am not all that crazy about Shallan either, but her wit is enjoyable to read, and I always find characters who deal with multiple personality orders to be at least interesting, even if I don't particularly like them.  

Dalinar was not sadistic, bloodthirsty, or addicted to killing.  If he was any of those things, then they would have carried over to his life even when he was not in battle.  He still got himself into fights but he was not killing people in those.  Well, at least not usually.  If he was sadistic he would revel in the pain that he was causing people, but his weapon is a Shardblade.  It kills instantly, if there is any pain, then it doesn't last very long.  Quite simply he was a man who didn't feel alive unless he was in combat.  It was combat that he truly loved, not the killing itself.  If that was what he lived for, he would be a serial killer outside of war.  There were flashes of the man that he would become during those days.  Such as his habit of sparing some of his enemies to join his elite fighting group if he deemed them worthy.  Small flashes, but they were there.  Dalinar did some truly terrible things yes, but he was not completely without conscience.  He pulled back in his destruction of that city.  And later it clearly haunted him.  So while he was at one point a terrible man, he was not evil, and so I can't call him irredimible.  

[hypatia she/her]

I don't hate Dalinar, but I had a tough time to accept the way he was presented.

Before OB I had the expectation to get a Sadeas.2 , perhaps even worse. Instead what I saw was a deeply damaged person with a "pit" in the place where now - after all the ordeal and with Cultivation's help - his personality as we know it can be found.

My problem is - what has happened to him to cause this "pit"? With just "he was bad" or "now he's good"we don't do justice to his character.

What I see at the end of OB was his next step, not the last one, especially because he has a consience - we excuse his deeds, but will HE excuse himself?

Like it is said in the book: He is a man in change, not a changed man. His way isn't finished.

At the end he starts to remember, this voices were quiet, because of the pruning, not because he has dealed with the guilt. A guilt he is now able to deal with because somehow this "void" where the Thrill had taken place is now filled with the Dalinar we know and perhaps was just suppressed.

I can't see him as "evil", he wasn't barely able for any human emotion at all, be it good or bad.

What I see is Gavilar using a damaged brother for his war against fellow Alethi.

Therefore for me he is a much more interesting person than before, but only if there are the next steps.

Edited April 20, 2018 by hypatia