Taravangian's Mistake

[grinachu]

I think Mr T is similar in some ways to The Lord Ruler. He's doing what is necessary but despicable.

Unfortunately his path depends on near perfect foresight which he lacks. It also assumes that others are oblivious to what is coming (except the return of the spren). It doesn't foresee Dalinar's visions. Or Kaladin's abilities or Szeth's death and recovery. Chances are his attempt to wrest the mantle of leadership of all of humanity will founder on the Skybreakers and/or Ghostbloods and/ Team Kholin. His biggest protection was anonymity and the assumption of benignity. Now with what Szeth knows about him (and by extension Nalan) the mask will slip at some point. He cannot protect himself against Szeth or Kaladin bent on assassinating him.

it's not so much that his path might not be viable- it might be. It's just the interlocking complexity of the multiple paths to protect humanity means that its not one path that's the solution. It's the series of steps that maximise all the potential paths. The Almighty has put Dalinar on the 'choose a champion' path. Wit has his own agenda but is nonetheless overtly supporting this play. So is Vasher. it would be interesting to know if Mr T's play is backed by Cultivation, implicitly.

[junior]

It doesn't foresee Dalinar's visions. Or Kaladin's abilities or Szeth's death and recovery.

 

 He actually has foreseen Kaladin's abilities.  Graves even says as much.  And there's a tiny corner of the diagram that mentions the possibility that spren-based powers will reemerge.  However, I suspect that the not so good King underestimated how rapidly the abilities would develop.  And he *definitely* didn't account for anyone developing them as early as Jasnah and Shallan did (in Shallan's case, at least right up until her mother was killed and Shallan stunted her development as a Radiant).  I suspect that T would be horrified if he were to realize just how advanced Jasnah's abilities were, and how long she'd been using her powers.

[grinachu]

He actually has foreseen Kaladin's abilities.  Graves even says as much.  And there's a tiny corner of the diagram that mentions the possibility that spren-based powers will reemerge.  However, I suspect that the not so good King underestimated how rapidly the abilities would develop.  And he *definitely* didn't account for anyone developing them as early as Jasnah and Shallan did (in Shallan's case, at least right up until her mother was killed and Shallan stunted her development as a Radiant).  I suspect that T would be horrified if he were to realize just how advanced Jasnah's abilities were, and how long she'd been using her powers.

You are right about him foreseeing Kaladin. I should have been more specific. He didn't foresee Kaladin's loss and recovery of his abilities. My intuition is that this will ultimately serve as a inoculation against the chapter 84 rpigraph.

Re Jasnah's abilities, the whole scene with the trapped grand daughter was a test of her abilities. He knows she is skilled at soul casting if nothing else.

[11thorderknight]

You are right about him foreseeing Kaladin. I should have been more specific. He didn't foresee Kaladin's loss and recovery of his abilities. My intuition is that this will ultimately serve as a inoculation against the chapter 84 rpigraph.

Re Jasnah's abilities, the whole scene with the trapped grand daughter was a test of her abilities. He knows she is skilled at soul casting if nothing else.

 

This. Anyone who would know that it might be possible, or even likely, that surgebinders would return would instantly be highly suspicious of Jasnah's "soulcaster". I mean, these things are literally the most precious items in the world; for Jasnah to suddenly find one after 4500 years is only believable to someone who can't entertain any other explanation (which is basically everyone else on Roshar, hence why she gets away with it).

[Observer]

Aside from the freakishly TLR-like ways he seems to want to use in order to save Roshar, I think there's actually a Diagram section than mentioned worldhoppers, though they think it's Mraize or whatever his name is. The idea of Taravagnian discovering and being released into the full expanse of the cosmere is more terrifying than anything he's mentioned/done so far.

[Moogle]

Aside from the freakishly TLR-like ways he seems to want to use in order to save Roshar, I think there's actually a Diagram section than mentioned worldhoppers, though they think it's Mraize or whatever his name is. The idea of Taravagnian discovering and being released into the full expanse of the cosmere is more terrifying than anything he's mentioned/done so far.

 

This is actually a surprisingly good idea. If he could find some sort of way to Splinter all the Shards, it'd be great. The Cosmere could quickly become paradise because there's be no forces of destruction looking to destroy everything and all the useless good forces of destruction could have their power used by people!

 

Of course, the Nightwatcher derives from a Shard, so I doubt Mr. T's intelligence is anywhere near the level Shards get for free. I mean, if Shards could grant that kind of intelligence, why wouldn't they use it on themselves?

[Observer]

Mistborn spoilers ahoy! (Though if you haven't read Mistborn, This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules are you doing here?)

When Vin ascends, both times actually, her mind if forced to expand in order to completely comprehend the infinite masses of power she possessed. Vargo's intelligence fluctuated from nearly nothing to probably half or a quarter-shardic levels, without the power that gives it context. He can't outsmart a shard in a one-on-one, but it wouldn't be the first time a smarter opponent has been beaten by a dumber one with more information and the element of surprise. 

 

Now, imagine if he figured out how to control his intelligence. I'm sure there's a way to pull that off.

[Tempus]

The Cosmere could quickly become paradise because there's be no forces of destruction looking to destroy everything and all the useless good forces of destruction could have their power used by people!

 

People are absolutely capable of destroying themselves without shardic help.

 

 

That said, I think this whole thread may be in error - the only word we have that Taragon loses his compassion is his own. I would like to argue that he does not lose his compassion at all when he becomes more intelligent, no, instead he simply has a stronger control over himself. My evidence? Tarantula tries to do the good, compassionate thing even when he is intelligent. He is able to weight compassion against pragmatism, and make hard decisions that force him to cry on days when he is less intelligent. NOT when he is more compassionate, but when his compassion is untempered by a full and complete understanding. He cries not because he cares and knows he must do wrong, but because he knows he must do wrong and CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY.

 

When Tarama is moderately smart, he pursues the path most likely to save humanity - a compassionate endeavour. When he is very smart, he crafts laws and rules designed to benefit humanity as a whole - and gets so caught up he forgets to factor in empathy. When he is incredibly smart, he calculates every piece of knowledge to the last extreme, for the sole reason of saving as many people as he can. That is not the action of a man without compassion. That is the action of a compassionate, desperately intelligent man striving against total annihilation and all indications of complete and utter destruction to come up with a plan, any plan, that can save them all.

 

That's not to say that it discounts the idea that an 'end does not justify the means' homily is coming our way. I just think that the idea that he loses compassion is misinformed.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Tempus

[RadiantNights]

how can anybody actually think Mr. t is a force for good on roshar. he literally slaughters his own people and has single handedly thrown the world into chaos. 

 

is it possible that he was too smart on the day he wrote the diagram? i mean he couldve severly over analyzed almost everything. how could killing the worlds leaders and throwing several countries into chaos be the path to saving anything? if there was a desolation coming wouldnt the solution be to untie the world into a single force and fight it together as dalinar is doing? how does he see his diagram as doing the right thing?

 

theory - someone (other than his people) is going to find out it was him that sent szeth to kill all the leaders and the radiants are going to mass together and take him out. i see mr. t as being the main villian of the fourth and fifth books along with the multitude of other secret societies out there

[Observer]

how can anybody actually think Mr. t is a force for good on roshar. he literally slaughters his own people and has single handedly thrown the world into chaos. 

 

 

He's a lot like the Lord Ruler, except he's on the wrong Shardworld if he's hoping to be considered right. If he can get all the squabbling, retarded nations under one "benevolent" banner, he can find a way to survive the desolation of all desolations. He doesn't particularly care who dies, because in the long run it doesn't matter at all.

[Acecool]

Hello all. I just got done with the WOR and I have a few thoughts on what T's boon was. It sorta came to me at the end and I don't think anyone has explored this posibility yet.

 

Taravangian is a Feruchemist, specifically he is a sparker. He does not know that when he is an idiot that he is inadvertenly storing intellegence in some zinc that he has on his body. Maybe his crown or jewelry has some zinc mixed in. Perhaps when he is normal he has taken off the zinc jewlry and has multiple metal mines lying around filled with intellegence. On the day he was super intellegent, he used up all of his metal mines in a single burst, multiplying his intellegence 100 fold. He probably accidentally put on all of his zinc jewelry at once and accidentally tapped it all.

 

This is further evidenced by the chart of his intellegence where he was generally equally stupid and equally intellegent. It is a nuetral power.

 

Then the boon that T asked for was "capacity." Capasity has a couple of meanings. The first is the ability to do something. It also means the amount that can be stored. Capacity is an interesting word choice and is very suggestive of what the boon was.

 

The curse part of the boon is built in to feruchemy. He has to spend a certain amount of time as an idiot in order to spend an equal amount of time that much smarter.

 

There is no reason to believe that powers from other worlds in the cosmere cannot be transported and used in Roshar. Indeed, when zseth was presented with Nightblood who could talk and leaked black smoke, it sorta clicked for me. This inicates that breath can be transported to Roshar. If breath can be transported then feruchemical abilities could be used and perhaps bestowed.

 

 

I could be wrong, and I have been wrong before. However that is my working theory.

[Malevericas]

interesting

[Tempus]

Now THAT is a cool theory. I wanna take it further still.

 

The Old Magic is an end-neutral magic system, like feruchemy (but not feruchemy). Like all Rosharan magic that we know of, it relies on bonds. For Old Magic, the bonds are in the form of deals - trade for equivalent value. The boons granted always remove some unspecific thing and grant some other specific thing, while remaining of netural value. T gains the capacity, but the amount stored fluctuates. Dalinar trades and gets memory or knowledge - loses the memory of his wife and gains perhaps some other memory or knowledge in return?

 

Fascinating line of inquiry.

[Moogle]

People are absolutely capable of destroying themselves without shardic help.

 

And yet, the vast majority of dead people in the Cosmere (who didn't die of old age or natural disasters - something I consider preventable by the Shards incidentally and blame them for not fixing) are dead as a result of Shardic meddling. Ruin's monsters, his natural disasters, Preservation's tsunamis and Snappings, Endowment's Manywar, Odium's Voidbringers, Honor's deal to subject his world to constant Desolations - at some point, one has to wonder why Odium being trapped is a good thing.

 

how can anybody actually think Mr. t is a force for good on roshar. he literally slaughters his own people and has single handedly thrown the world into chaos.

 

He slaughters some of his people so the greater majority will not die. 9/10 people died in a previous Desolation, and without the Heralds or (large amounts of which we don't have because of Nalan) Radiants the death toll is likely to be higher without drastic measures.

 

He's also uniting the world, which means he needs to temporarily throw it into chaos. We don't know if he'll unite it, but it's what he intends. What he's doing will be good for Roshar if he succeeds. I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise? The question is more whether people think it's worth the cost and whether his chances are that good. I find it difficult to believe people don't think it's worth it, but that goes into personal feelings and opinions rather than anything people can persuade each other with.

 

He's a lot like the Lord Ruler, except he's on the wrong Shardworld if he's hoping to be considered right.

 

Honor's Splintered, and I don't really know why people give Shards any moral authority anyways. They're pretty much incredibly bad for civilization. The only exception so far has been Harmony I believe, and the only reason he hasn't been mucking things up I'm half-convinced is because he "finds it hard to act" as per WoB. I guess you could also make an exception for Endowment, but Endowment's mucking about with Returned resulted in the Manywar and so many other things, so I find this questionable.

 

Splinter them all, I say.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Tempus]

All the worlds are connected through the cognitive realm, Moogle. So if you think really hard about fire, you might be able to watch the worlds burn. =D

[xbauks]

And yet, the vast majority of dead people in the Cosmere (who didn't die of old age or natural disasters - something I consider preventable by the Shards incidentally and blame them for not fixing) are dead as a result of Shardic meddling. Ruin's monsters, his natural disasters, Preservation's tsunamis and Snappings, Endowment's Manywar, Odium's Voidbringers, Honor's deal to subject his world to constant Desolations - at some point, one has to wonder why Odium being trapped is a good thing.

He slaughters some of his people so the greater majority will not die. 9/10 people died in a previous Desolation, and without the Heralds or (large amounts of which we don't have because of Nalan) Radiants the death toll is likely to be higher without drastic measures.

He's also uniting the world, which means he needs to temporarily throw it into chaos. We don't know if he'll unite it, but it's what he intends. What he's doing will be good for Roshar if he succeeds. I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise? The question is more whether people think it's worth the cost and whether his chances are that good. I find it difficult to believe people don't think it's worth it, but that goes into personal feelings and opinions rather than anything people can persuade each other with.

Honor's Splintered, and I don't really know why people give Shards any moral authority anyways. They're pretty much incredibly bad for civilization. The only exception so far has been Harmony I believe, and the only reason he hasn't been mucking things up I'm half-convinced is because he "finds it hard to act" as per WoB. I guess you could also make an exception for Endowment, but Endowment's mucking about with Returned resulted in the Manywar and so many other things, so I find this questionable.

Splinter them all, I say.

It's interesting that you bring up Harmony. I'm not sure if it's been brought up but the only reason the shards are generally bad for the worlds is because they have nothing to balance them. The exception being Harmony who is almost perfectly balanced. Sure splintering them would help, but according to Brandon killing the bearer of a shard just allows the shard to gain sentience and can cause funky things to happen. I say put Adonalsium back together. Or if not Adonalsium then at least pair up the opposing shards.

[Kessler]

The world with Harmony seems to be the only one with rapid advancement of technology.

 

I think Taravangian's problem could be that his plan requires him to be in complete control. Does the world need unification under a single leader to be saved? Jah Kaved's King was friendly with Alethkar - at this point Dalinar could have convinced him to ally in the fight against Voidbringers, without the country suffering from civil war, which weakened it before the Desolation. 

 

I think world would be easier to save if Taravangian worked with Dalinar and Knights Radiant and not sought to eliminate them as threat to his world conquest. The Diagram names them competition - I think only because it's a plan for Taravangian to do the job solo (+minions & fooled followers). 

 

Plus the fact that anything can be sacrificed for survival is rather ominous - Parshman survived their defeat and even prospered as slaves/domesticated animals of humans.  

 

 

[Observer]

A slight interruption, but remember the line about how easy it is to underestimate the average man? If, and I do consider it an if after all this, his intelligence and compassion are indeed opposed, he would need a smart day to arrange things, a dumber day to put everything emotional in order, and then an average day where he can pull it all together, or something like that. Smart Vargo either knows something he isn't telling us, or he's doing everything in a pointlessly hard manner thanks to a still-present inability to understand people.

[Moogle]

I think Taravangian's problem could be that his plan requires him to be in complete control. Does the world need unification under a single leader to be saved? Jah Kaved's King was friendly with Alethkar - at this point Dalinar could have convinced him to ally in the fight against Voidbringers, without the country suffering from civil war, which weakened it before the Desolation.

 

Can you provide a source on Jah Keved's king being friendly with Alethkar? My understanding is that he was just as weak as Elhokar, based on this quote:

 

Jah Keved was the only other kingdom in Roshar that owned a substantial number of Shards, nearly as many as Alethkar. There hadn’t been a direct war between them in centuries. Alethkar had been too divided, and Jah Keved was little better.

 

Based on how easy it was for Taravangian to encourage a civil war, I was under the impression that Jah Keved was so divided that without Taravangian it would have stayed divided. Hence the need for chaos to get that all fixed, much like Dalinar required a bunch of chaos and death to finally unite a good portion of the highprinces.

 

As to Dalinar and Taravangian uniting, I can see it happening. The Diagram mentions Dalinar is their enemy only if he pursues peace (because Alethkar has to be driven to kill the Parshendi before they can summon the Everstorm - good job waiting so long, Dalinar). He might not be considered peaceful at this point, though I grant that chances are slim.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Moogle

[name_here]

I thought Jah Kaved and Alethkar were arch-enemies of each other.

[GeneSedai]

There are hints that there's a lot of rivalry (as well as small wars and skirmishes) with Jah Kaved all the time. We know for certain that Helleran Davar was with Veden forces when he attacked and tried to assassinate Amaram.

 

As for the larger Taravangian issue and his boon/curse from the Nightwatcher... 

 

We know that Cultivation (and in theory the Nightwatcher, for I believe her to be of Cultivation in the same way that the Stormfather is of Honor) is much better at seeing the future. But since Honor's death, we know that she has grown much less concerned with the lives of humans. So honestly I think she used her 'foresight' to pick what she sees as a guaranteed path to victory... Regardless of the cost of life.

 

Whereas Honor and our friends on the Shattered Plains are more interested in winning the right way. Journey before destination and all of that. 

 

On the note of him being a Sparker: If his boon was to be a Zinc Feruchemist, and his curse was to be unable to control it... Then perhaps this theory really is correct. My only qualm with it is that the boon and curse are too linked for the nightwatcher.

Edited March 15, 2014 by GeneSedai

[straits]

It could be that the boon is both the intelligence and the compassion, whereas the curse is the fact that these two traits are split such that they do not mix to a useful degree at any given day. I might be repeating what others said though.

[Carlos Stormblessed]

I doubt Mr T will end up being the one that saves the world. As Moogle has already pointed out, he goes against everything these books are about. He is the antithesis to Dalinar. I can see Dalinar's book being about the struggle between the two to lead humanity safely through the desolation. Dalinar going the journey before destination route and Mr T going the ends justify the means route.

You are right. How I phrased that did not actually communicate what I meant. What I meant is that the nightwatcher did grant Mr.T the opportunity to save a certain population from annihilation. However, there are more honorable and successful ways of saving more people if not the majority. Meaning the nightwatcher and the Diagram are correct, but on a lower scale. Sort of like the good, better, and best metaphor. The Diagram is an okay way of saving some people, but their is a best way, and the new "Knights Radiants" will find that way. (Hopefully....) 

[name_here]

It could be that the boon is both the intelligence and the compassion, whereas the curse is the fact that these two traits are split such that they do not mix to a useful degree at any given day. I might be repeating what others said though.

 

It's been suggested. but I personally somewhat doubt it. Having the curse outright invalidate the boon would seem to rather go against the spirit of the thing.

[Moogle]

We know that Cultivation (and in theory the Nightwatcher, for I believe her to be of Cultivation in the same way that the Stormfather is of Honor)

 

We have WoB that the Nightwatcher is not what you're suggesting:

 

Q: Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?

A: The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

 

It's possible he misunderstood the question, though. I certainly thought you were right before the WoB.

 

We know that Cultivation (and in theory the Nightwatcher, for I believe her to be of Cultivation in the same way that the Stormfather is of Honor) is much better at seeing the future. But since Honor's death, we know that she has grown much less concerned with the lives of humans. So honestly I think she used her 'foresight' to pick what she sees as a guaranteed path to victory... Regardless of the cost of life.

 

Whereas Honor and our friends on the Shattered Plains are more interested in winning the right way. Journey before destination and all of that. 

 

I'm confused by the idea that the honorable way is supposed to save more lives. The First Ideal of the Radiants, as interpreted by Teft, is explained like this:

 

Teft picked up spheres, putting them in his pouch. He held the last one for a second, then tucked it away too. “Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.”

 

It is actively against saving the most lives possible. Contrast this with Taravangian:

 

What now? Did Taravangian suspend the murders? His heart yearned to— but if they could discover even one more glimmer about the future, one fact that could save hundreds of thousands, would it not be worth the lives of the few now?

 

My impression of the theme of the entire series is supposed to be that it's not worth saving lives if you have to do evil actions. Journey before destination. Taravangian embodies the idea that saving the most lives possible, even if you have to do bad things, is the way to go about things.

 

If Taravangian's way leads to more people being dead and he has to do things that make him cry... what the heck is the point of him as an alternative to Kaladin/Dalinar? Why would anyone ever act that way? He fails to be a compelling villain in that case. He'd be an idiot.

 

However, there are more honorable and successful ways of saving more people if not the majority.

 

What makes you think that if these ways existed that Mr. T would not be using them? He's not Cultivation, particularly considering that he doesn't have visions of the future.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Moogle