Differences Between the Orders

[11thorderknight]

So, based on Way of Kings info (which was minimal) it seemed like the ten orders were basically very similar to one another. Sure, they all had their own Ideals, and therefore might have different priorities and temperaments for their members, and obviously had different Surgebinding powers. But otherwise, they were essentially all the same. However, based on some new info from Words of Radiance, we know there were significant differences between them. Here's a list of what we know so far:

 

1) Some orders had specific Oaths that every member had to speak, like the Windrunners. Others got to choose more personal oaths, with the Lightweavers being perhaps the greatest example of this (speaking personal Truths rather than Oaths). 

 

2) Some orders had rigid hierarchies (again, Windrunners) while others ran around doing their own thing (Lightweavers again?)

 

3) They had different levels of membership, with the Bondsmiths being almost nonexistent, at 3 members. Implication is that different spren bonds were formed based on the need for them; i.e. lots of Windrunners, Dustbringers and Stonewards for defense maybe, some Skybreakers for enforcement/peacekeeping, Elsecallers, Lightweavers and Truthwatchers being around more during peacetime, etc.

 

4) Squires - could anyone become one by serving the Radiants and thereby gain some minor surgebinding? Or did you have to be on the path to Knighthood, i.e. have a Nahel bond that wasn't fully mature yet?

 

5) Order choice - obviously some of the orders have pretty conflicting Ideals, but a lot are very similar - for instance, Jasnah's personality could have put her in the Truthwatchers (learned/giving) as easily as in the Elsecallers, and Dalinar could have been a Willshaper (resolute/builder). Did people get any choice about which order they joined, or was it determined entirely by the spren? 

 

6) Did the Bondsmiths really never have any Shards, or was that just the Stormfather still having his 4500 year long temper tantrum, and further Oaths will get Dalinar a Blade?

[Wileygirl13]

Maybe this is off topic a bit, but I was wondering if anyone has a breakdown/guess for what each order did to break the Nahel bond (day of recreance).

Each spren (Ivory, Syl, Pattern, even the Stormfather...) believe they will be killed eventually, but how? Is it different for each order?

[xbauks]

6) Did the Bondsmiths really never have any Shards, or was that just the Stormfather still having his 4500 year long temper tantrum, and further Oaths will get Dalinar a Blade?

 

The Stormfather mentions that Dalinar will be a Radiant with no Shards. Whether that means that Bondsmiths as a whole have no shards or Dalinar alone will have no Shard remains to be seen. 

[DiamondMind]

11thorderknight:

 

1) IIRC, Lightweavers are the only Order with something besides Ideals. 

 

3) Yep, though I think that it might not break down the way you put it. Some orders just naturally have lower numbers than others; the Bondsmiths, perhaps, because they bond with unique spren of which there are a limited number.

 

4) I don't think the squires have any Surgebinding whatsoever, just gain the ability to passively absorb Stormlight to up their combat abilities and healing. Anyone could become one as long as they have a connection to the Radiant and have to gain Surgebinding on their own. Others disagree, and you can see more discussion in that thread, titled "Radiant Squires."

 

5) We have absolutely no idea, but it seems to be picked by the spren. Of course, the spren are attracted to those who best follow the Ideals of that order, so it's kind of a chicken and egg thing.

 

6) My guess? Temper tantrum. The Stormfather will come around eventually, with or without more Oaths.

 

 

Wileygirl:

 

The 9 orders who broke their bonds did so by abandoning their Oaths, which killed the spren in the process.Those Oaths are of course different for each order, but it seems that something caused the Recreance - ie. caused all the Knights Radiant to abandon their oaths at once. We don't know what, but there are tantalizing clues in the epigraphs. More discussion is in the chapter 84 epigraph topic

Edited March 13, 2014 by DiamondMind

[xbauks]

Some orders just naturally have lower numbers than others; the Bondsmiths, perhaps, because they bond with unique spren of which there are a limited number.

 

I really don't think Bondsmiths have different spren for each of them.

 

 

But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14

 

This epigraph doesn't say "Their spren were..." Am I just bad at English or does that imply a singular spren for all 3 of them?

[DiamondMind]

This epigraph doesn't say "Their spren were..." Am I just bad at English or does that imply a singular spren for all 3 of them?

 

It implies that each Bondsmith partnered with a spren of which there is no duplicate. For example, there are many honorspren like Syl but only one Stormfather. Sorry if I was unclear.

[Moogle]

Maybe this is off topic a bit, but I was wondering if anyone has a breakdown/guess for what each order did to break the Nahel bond (day of recreance).

Each spren (Ivory, Syl, Pattern, even the Stormfather...) believe they will be killed eventually, but how? Is it different for each order?

 

Casting aside their Shards and committing suicide would probably be the quickest way to do it (all Orders share the First Ideal), though I think what was important was getting non-Radiants to hate them. Spren are connected to cultural perceptions in part. It's actually a very interesting question.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Awesomeness Summoned]

3) Elsecallers, Lightweavers and Truthwatchers being around more during peacetime, etc.

Not sure I'd agree with designating them as peacetime. They might not always be in the front line but I would think transportation and long range communication (Elsecallers); food, supplies, and housing (Else & Light); spies and subterfuge (Lightweavers); intelligence information and healing (Truthwatchers) are all important parts of a functioning military.

[Bramble Thorn]

I really don't think Bondsmiths have different spren for each of them.

 

 

This epigraph doesn't say "Their spren were..." Am I just bad at English or does that imply a singular spren for all 3 of them?

 

Others may disagree, but this is the way I read the grammar, with all the Bondsmiths sharing the same spren, shown in the last chapter as the Stormfather. Trying to greatly increase the number of Smiths would require the Stormfather sustaining more Nahel Bonds, conceivably endangering the Stormfather and/or the Highstorms.

 

Remember however, that this is an unreliable text written at least 200 years after the Radiants vanished, possibly translated from another language

Edited March 13, 2014 by Bramble Thorn

[xbauks]

It implies that each Bondsmith partnered with a spren of which there is no duplicate. For example, there are many honorspren like Syl but only one Stormfather. Sorry if I was unclear.

 

I understand that. I was trying to point out that the grammar used in that sentence seems to imply a single spren for all three Bondsmiths. 

 

 

"Their spren..."

 

The spren of the 3 Bondsmith

 

 

"Their spren was..."

 

The singular form was used. Even if each of the Bondsmith had a unique spren, you would still use the plural.

 

Of course as Bramble Thorn pointed out, it is possible that since the book was written 200 years after the Recreance there could be errors.

[DocHoliday]

I understand that. I was trying to point out that the grammar used in that sentence seems to imply a single spren for all three Bondsmiths. 

 

 

The spren of the 3 Bondsmith

 

 

The singular form was used. Even if each of the Bondsmith had a unique spren, you would still use the plural.

 

Of course as Bramble Thorn pointed out, it is possible that since the book was written 200 years after the Recreance there could be errors.

 

Spren is the plural and singular form of spren...

[Quazar87]

Spren is the plural and singular form of spren...

 

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 281018368 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 291830064 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

Was is singular.

[xbauks]

Spren is the plural and singular form of spren...

 

Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to "was".

 

 

Their spren was

 

rather than

 

 

Their spren were

[11thorderknight]

If we stick to 100% correct grammar, then the only way to understand "...their spren was understood to be specific..." would be that they all shared one specific spren. However, the grammar and syntax of all the Words of Radiance epigraphs are pretty quirky, so I won't rely on it 100%. It does make a lot of sense though, and it also has a certain elegance to it - the Stormfather is the "father" of the honorspren/windspren that bind to Windrunners, and is himself the spren of the Bondsmiths, thereby completing the circle of the ten orders.

[11thorderknight]

Since the Stormfather refuses to give Dalinar a Blade, at least at this point, the implication is that that it wasn't so much the loss of the bond that the spren feared, but being trapped in mindless Blade form.

[Quazar87]

If we stick to 100% correct grammar, then the only way to understand "...their spren was understood to be specific..." would be that they all shared one specific spren. However, the grammar and syntax of all the Words of Radiance epigraphs are pretty quirky, so I won't rely on it 100%. It does make a lot of sense though, and it also has a certain elegance to it - the Stormfather is the "father" of the honorspren/windspren that bind to Windrunners, and is himself the spren of the Bondsmiths, thereby completing the circle of the ten orders.

 

This is a good point. The Words of Radiance epigraphs are intentionally strange in their phrasing, to give the feeling of being archaic I suppose.

[kaos]

In regards to your 5th question, in one of the epigraphs it mentions a lightweaver who had trouble with the truths he had to speak because he wasn't really comfortable with them. 

 

Specifically (paraphrased): Malachin was hindered because even though he was completely baller at killing people he sucked as a Lightweaver. He wanted his oaths to be easy and straightforward, but because his Cryptic buddy was an esoteric douchebag and wanted him to speak 'truths' and be 'self-aware' he was totes boned.

[xbauks]

In regards to your 5th question, in one of the epigraphs it mentions a lightweaver who had trouble with the truths he had to speak because he wasn't really comfortable with them.

Specifically (paraphrased): Malachin was hindered because even though he was completely baller at killing people he sucked as a Lightweaver. He wanted his oaths to be easy and straightforward, but because his Cryptic buddy was an esoteric douchebag and wanted him to speak 'truths' and be 'self-aware' he was totes boned.

I enjoyed your paraphrase very much. Would you be willing to do this in other threads? Drop in with a relevant paraphrased epigraph?

[Veil]

Just because I like playing devil's advocate...

 

 

But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14

 

You could read this as saying,

 

 

[At this particular point in history,] there were only three Bondsmiths, which wasn't unusual. And they didn't particularly care to recruit more. In fact, [during another time period] there was often only one Bondsmith around. The kind of spren they bonded was considered very specific, asking them to bond lesser spren was borderline blasphemy.

 

Which might suggest that the spren Bondsmiths bonded to were set apart from ordinary spren. Unique spren (like Cusichesh, for example), or maybe specific unique spren. Spren with some connection to the gods, perhaps? The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and others, whom we haven't necessarily seen yet. Shardspren, if you will. I say this because of the other epigraph that mentions Bondsmiths:

 

 

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

--From Words of Radiance, chapter 30, page 18

 

Now, granted, we don't know what the Bondsmiths' Surges do, exactly, but I find it unlikely that Adhesion and Tension have much to do with the Heralds or Odium or any of it. They don't strike me as especially divine Surges. So maybe Melishi is thinking of the Bondsmiths' connection to Honor himself. (And/or Cultivation. And/or Odium. And/or various combinations thereof.) If the Bondsmiths' spren held more of their respective Shard's power/consciousness than typical spren, it might give the Bondsmiths a way to manipulate the Oathpact. Perhaps making it stronger somehow? Hastening the end of the current Desolation and delaying the next?

 

Actually, for that matter, maybe Surgebinding alone is enough to explain it. Adhesion and tension are both static. One pushing, the other pulling, but basically holding everything together. Physical bonds, but also things like the Oathpacts. If Progression (typically plants and healing, but also, more loosely speaking, change over time) and Illumination (light and sound) can combine to give Truthseers visions of how things are going to change over time, maybe Adhesion and Tension combine to give Bondsmiths power over things like the Oathpact.

 

So new theory: The Bondsmiths literally Surgebound the Oathpact into oblivion. Yay, team!

 

(And now I'm thinking of Taravangian's prediction that "one is almost certainly a traitor to the others." If Bondsmiths bind "Shardspren," they could bind Odium's spren. Maybe Odium used a Bondsmith to breath the Oathpact 4500 years ago, and then set himself up as the "Stormfather" to manipulate Dalinar into finishing the job.)

[xbauks]

Just because I like playing devil's advocate...

You could read this as saying,

Which might suggest that the spren Bondsmiths bonded to were set apart from ordinary spren. Unique spren (like Cusichesh, for example), or maybe specific unique spren. Spren with some connection to the gods, perhaps? The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and others, whom we haven't necessarily seen yet. Shardspren, if you will. I say this because of the other epigraph that mentions Bondsmiths:

Now, granted, we don't know what the Bondsmiths' Surges do, exactly, but I find it unlikely that Adhesion and Tension have much to do with the Heralds or Odium or any of it. They don't strike me as especially divine Surges. So maybe Melishi is thinking of the Bondsmiths' connection to Honor himself. (And/or Cultivation. And/or Odium. And/or various combinations thereof.) If the Bondsmiths' spren held more of their respective Shard's power/consciousness than typical spren, it might give the Bondsmiths a way to manipulate the Oathpact. Perhaps making it stronger somehow? Hastening the end of the current Desolation and delaying the next?

Actually, for that matter, maybe Surgebinding alone is enough to explain it. Adhesion and tension are both static. One pushing, the other pulling, but basically holding everything together. Physical bonds, but also things like the Oathpacts. If Progression (typically plants and healing, but also, more loosely speaking, change over time) and Illumination (light and sound) can combine to give Truthseers visions of how things are going to change over time, maybe Adhesion and Tension combine to give Bondsmiths power over things like the Oathpact.

So new theory: The Bondsmiths literally Surgebound the Oathpact into oblivion. Yay, team!

(And now I'm thinking of Taravangian's prediction that "one is almost certainly a traitor to the others." If Bondsmiths bind "Shardspren," they could bind Odium's spren. Maybe Odium used a Bondsmith to breath the Oathpact 4500 years ago, and then set himself up as the "Stormfather" to manipulate Dalinar into finishing the job.)

I can see some of what you're trying to say. If spren of the same type were referred to as a singular then that epigraph would make sense. In the same way you would say "their family was understood to be..." And I can see that happening. Spren don't seem as individualistic as humans. Perhaps all Honourspren are similar to Syl in personality.

Your theory: from the letter written to Hoid, the author makes it seem like Odium has been contained in Greater Roshar for the past 4 millennia. That would imply either constant meddling by Odium (Stormfather responsibilities) or that he has been stuck. It makes more sense if the Bondsmith somehow made the Oathpact more binding, forcing Odium to be unable to leave.

[kaos]

I enjoyed your paraphrase very much. Would you be willing to do this in other threads? Drop in with a relevant paraphrased epigraph?

Sure I guess.