Ashspren Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 24 minutes ago, SLNC said: Oh man. I really hope so. I really, really hope, that Teshav's eye roll was a nod at how overly cheesy it is. I couldn't take more of that. I definitely think Brandon was trolling at that point-- maybe he was even poking some fun at cheesy scenes in romance novels... 32 minutes ago, Arch said: Big problem with ASK is that some of the imagery is more than a little confusing... Like in the scene where Adolin confronts Shallan regarding her feelings for Kaladin. They go off somewhere private to talk, and we see that Kaladin is not to far off looming over them as Adolin and Shallan reaffirm their love for eachother. Now maybe this is because I'm looking at this too much like a shot in a movie, but the message I'm getting from that definitely isn't "everyone has moved on and that's it". Especially considering how easy it would have for Brandon to have Adolin and Shallan talk in a more private/intamite setting. Of course I dont know if that means anything will continue, but it just seems odd to me. When I read the scene, I visualized Kaladin being off in the distance, and definitely out of earshot. He's practicing his flying, meanwhile Adolin and Shallan are indoors, inside the palace.
Arch he/him Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ashspren said: When I read the scene, I visualized Kaladin being off in the distance, and definitely out of earshot. He's practicing his flying, meanwhile Adolin and Shallan are indoors, inside the palace. Nah, they were in some Alleyway. And yeah Kaladin isnt directly above them lol. He cant hear them or anything, but they all have a clear view of eachother. 2
Guest Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, Ashspren said: I definitely think Brandon was trolling at that point-- maybe he was even poking some fun at cheesy scenes in romance novels... Dunno. With Shallan's mental state and the whole "He knows me" stuff, "Without you I fade" might have some deeper implication. At any rate, they are trying hard to be romantic and it just ends in cringe.
Ashspren Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 34 minutes ago, SLNC said: Dunno. With Shallan's mental state and the whole "He knows me" stuff, "Without you I fade" might have some deeper implication. At any rate, they are trying hard to be romantic and it just ends in cringe. I think that could be a possibility-- maybe they're trying to convince themselves that they love each other more than they actually do. Especially since Shallan acknowledges that Veil "fawned over" Kaladin... that might be her trying to convince Veil to love Adolin. 2
Jofwu he/him Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 14 hours ago, SLNC said: At any rate, they are trying hard to be romantic and it just ends in cringe. I don't think they're trying too hard exactly. To me at least that implies Shallan is trying to force something she doesn't really feel. Quote Adolin made Shallan giddy. With his warmth so close, she had trouble maintaining the illusion of the map. I think one could argue that her feelings are shallow, but I don't think we can say she's forcing them. She IS a ~19 year old girl who's about to get married. It's pretty normal to say cringey mush like this in that situation. Brandon's not trolling. This is real life folks. Real life in all it's cringey glory. 6
Ashspren Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 On 3/28/2018 at 10:45 AM, Jofwu said: I don't think they're trying too hard exactly. To me at least that implies Shallan is trying to force something she doesn't really feel. I think one could argue that her feelings are shallow, but I don't think we can say she's forcing them. She IS a ~19 year old girl who's about to get married. It's pretty normal to say cringey mush like this in that situation. Brandon's not trolling. This is real life folks. Real life in all it's cringey glory. I always say that I want real relationships to be like book relationships... but with Shadolin, it just got extremely cringey. If someone were to say something about fading when I wasn’t with them, I would ask them if they were feeling okay... 3
Guest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) I know, I know. Old thread and everything, but I have only just read this. On 28.3.2018 at 7:45 PM, Jofwu said: She IS a ~19 year old girl who's about to get married. It's pretty normal to say cringey mush like this in that situation. Brandon's not trolling. This is real life folks. Real life in all it's cringey glory. Oof. I think, that really depends on the person. And I don't think Shallan is that kind of person. I think, that the lovey-dovey stuff is a front for her to convince herself of those feelings. On 28.3.2018 at 7:45 PM, Jofwu said: I think one could argue that her feelings are shallow, but I don't think we can say she's forcing them. And we also can't say, that she isn't. We're talking about Shallan, the master of lies, here. To reiterate what @Ashspren mentioned again. Shallan is reliant on Adolin to keep herself around. "Without you, I fade" - that moment was where she was finally honest to herself. And that should be worrying, since she has reached the point of where she doesn't see herself being worth more than just being Adolin's wife. Hard to explain... bear with me please. If you look at most of Shallan's thoughts about Adolin from the moment they've met in WoR to their wedding in OB, most of them are fond, yes, but not really romantic, albeit with the single exception of her comparing him to a sunrise (which is weird too, since it was established in WoR, that she prefers rain to sunshine). Sometimes, she even hardly thinks about him. Except, that they suddenly are there in full force, when she decides, that she should love Adolin, because "he knows". What makes this so iffy for me is the sudden drastic increase in these feelings. Like she's forcing herself to love him and to feel those cliched feelings, because that is how she thinks love should feel like. And then before the wedding those treacherous feelings of unhappiness come up right before the wedding. Why should she feel that, if she is about to marry the man, she loves? If those feelings for Adolin are genuine? No, instead she has to shove those feelings away, because that is not how it should be. She forces herself to be happy. Edited July 19, 2018 by SLNC
Ashspren Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 1 hour ago, SLNC said: I know, I know. Old thread and everything, but I have only just read this. Oof. I think, that really depends on the person. And I don't think Shallan is that kind of person. I think, that the lovey-dovey stuff is a front for her to convince herself of those feelings. And we also can't say, that she isn't. We're talking about Shallan, the master of lies, here. To reiterate what @Ashspren mentioned again. Shallan is reliant on Adolin to keep herself around. "Without you, I fade" - that moment was where she was finally honest to herself. And that should be worrying, since she has reached the point of where she doesn't see herself being worth more than just being Adolin's wife. Hard to explain... bear with me please. If you look at most of Shallan's thoughts about Adolin from the moment they've met in WoR to their wedding in OB, most of them are fond, yes, but not really romantic, albeit with the single exception of her comparing him to a sunrise (which is weird too, since it was established in WoR, that she prefers rain to sunshine). Sometimes, she even hardly thinks about him. Except, that they suddenly are there in full force, when she decides, that she should love Adolin, because "he knows". What makes this so iffy for me is the sudden drastic increase in these feelings. Like she's forcing herself to love him and to feel those cliched feelings, because that is how she thinks love should feel like. And then before the wedding those treacherous feelings of unhappiness come up right before the wedding. Why should she feel that, if she is about to marry the man, she loves? If those feelings for Adolin are genuine? No, instead she has to shove those feelings away, because that is not how it should be. She forces herself to be happy. Aw, I got mentioned! I feel important now. After rereading Words of Radiance for the umpteenth time, I decided to really pore over the book and look for portions of Shallan’s history that could contribute to her future love life, and moments between Shallan and Adolin themselves. Firstly, as I mentioned in a previous post, it’s important to look at how serious Shallan’s main internal conflict is when she meets Adolin. I believe that each character has an internal and external conflict— for all of the protagonists, the external conflict is defeating Odium and the Parshendi. Shallan’s internal conflict is her split personalities of Veil, Radiant, and Shallan. Interestingly, Shallan’s split personality issue starts soon after she meets Adolin. After meeting him in Chapter 38, she starts meeting with the Ghostbloods under Veil’s persona in Chapter 43. From that point forward, things only get worse. In chapters that are branded as Shallan’s point of view, we are given it through Veil’s. Instead of saying something like “Shallan said...”, we read that “Veil said...”. Everything becomes even more complicated once Brightness Radiant comes into the picture. At the end of Oathbringer, Shallan is faced with all three versions of herself. Brightness Radiant and Veil are telling her to choose Kaladin. But Shallan doesn’t love Kaladin in the same way that she loves Adolin. She wants to scream, “Hey, look, it’s me, I’m Shallan! S-H-A-L-L-A-N Shallan!”, but she can’t. She’s trapped in this whirlwind of thoughts and personas. She’s overwhelmed, and can’t get their true feelings out. She’s scared that she might lose herself in this mess. Another thing that needs to be considered is Shallan’s examples of romance from her childhood. Shallan has three primary examples: her father and her mother, her father and Malise, and finally, Balat and Eylita. Each of these relationships was vastly different from the rest. The relationship between Shallan’s father and mother started out wonderfully, but ended in disaster. With her father and Malise, the relationship was abusive. Finally, Balat and Eylita were perhaps the most cliche, lovey-dovey couple on Roshar. Each of these relationship examples has given Shallan certain thoughts and fears, romantically speaking. She fears that while everything seems good now, it will eventually turn to ashes in an explosion of epic proportions. She’s afraid of getting hurt, and further than that, she’s afraid of hurting somebody— that she’s more like her father than she claims. And finally, yes, she might act like the female protagonist of a romance novel, but that’s how she saw her brother and his lover acting. Finally, we get to the line of contention: “Without you, I fade.” Looking at everything above, we have four things that influence what Shallan would say to someone who she is in love with. Firstly, she’s scared of losing herself, which is probably why she is overplaying her emotions for Adolin. She is trying to subdue Brightness Radiant and Veil, and is gahering the strength to do something that the real Shallan wants, for once. Secondly, she fears losing everything good in her relationship. Next, she’s afraid of hurting Adolin. And finally, she’s been taught to say some very cliche things to express her love for someone. With that in mind, “Without you, I fade” is really just the shorter way for Shallan to say everything above. What Shallan says: Quote “Without you, I fade.” What she really means: Quote “I’m afraid of losing myself in this mess of a life. I’m afraid of losing everything we have. I haven’t had the best relationships to look up to in my life, and I don’t want this to end up like all of the others. I truly love you but just don’t know how to say it. I need to find myself, and I don’t want to hurt you in the process.” 6
Guest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Ashspren said: Looking at everything above, we have four things that influence what Shallan would say to someone who she is in love with. Firstly, she’s scared of losing herself, which is probably why she is overplaying her emotions for Adolin. She is trying to subdue Brightness Radiant and Veil, and is gahering the strength to do something that the real Shallan wants, for once. Secondly, she fears losing everything good in her relationship. Next, she’s afraid of hurting Adolin. And finally, she’s been taught to say some very cliche things to express her love for someone. I concur, with the exception of Shallan in that situation being the "real Shallan" it is more of an optimized Shallan, that Shallan thinks she should be. Ever since she started delving deeper into Veil, she used her as a dump to shove unwanted feelings to. And also as a vent to do the things, that she sometimes likes to do, but she thinks isn't allowed to do, because it isn't expected from her. Now the question is... After all this, what is the real Shallan? Is that what is left of Shallan still real? Or has she lost so much of her original personality, that she isn't the real Shallan anymore? Regading "Without you, I fade": It's a really contentious thing, but I don't see any indication, that it is supposed to be a proclamation of "true love". It can be interpreted as that, but it more seems like a very, very veiled cry for help and one of the few true things she says, that she is afraid of losing herself and relies on Adolin to keep her around, because of the ostensive love of Adolin for her (another very contentious thing for me, since, from what I've read and in context with his past... relationships, I'm not so sure, that his love is that genuine.) In a way, she is relying on Adolin loving her, since she can't love herself anymore. And that is worrying. Edited July 19, 2018 by SLNC
Ashspren Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 57 minutes ago, SLNC said: I concur, with the exception of Shallan in that situation being the "real Shallan" it is more of an optimized Shallan, that Shallan thinks she should be. Ever since she started delving deeper into Veil, she used her as a dump to shove unwanted feelings to. And also as a vent to do the things, that she sometimes likes to do, but she thinks isn't allowed to do, because it isn't expected from her. Now the question is... After all this, what is the real Shallan? Is that what is left of Shallan still real? Or has she lost so much of her original personality, that she isn't the real Shallan anymore? Regading "Without you, I fade": It's a really contentious thing, but I don't see any indication, that it is supposed to be a proclamation of "true love". It can be interpreted as that, but it more seems like a very, very veiled cry for help and one of the few true things she says, that she is afraid of losing herself and relies on Adolin to keep her around, because of the ostensive love of Adolin for her (another very contentious thing for me, since, from what I've read and in context with his past... relationships, I'm not so sure, that his love is that genuine.) In a way, she is relying on Adolin loving her, since she can't love herself anymore. And that is worrying. I agree that it’s worrying, and that she is relying on Adolin. However, I do still believe that her feelings for Adolin are genuine. The chemistry between them is undeniable. Shallan, I believe, is using her Brightness Radiant / Veil experience as somewhat of an experiment. After trying out the three aspects of her personality, I think she is going to pick and choose some concepts in building the best version of herself that she can. As I mentioned earlier, I believe that each character has an internal struggle. With that, each person is working towards something. Shallan is working towards finding her best self, which involved experimenting with Veil, Radiant, and Shallan. Additionally, she met both Adolin and Kaladin before she started working as Veil. Her feelings for Adolin were purely as Shallan, before the whole personality split. As she works towards her best self and staying grounded as Shallan, she’s relying on a true feeling that came before she had to be anyone else. Nahel bonds and Radiance is all about (1) looking better in your own eyes and (2) looking better in the eyes of your Order. The two grounding concepts of the Lightweavers are creativity and honesty. In order to become more honest, Shallan needs to find who the best Shallan is in her own eyes. She needs to make herself happy. That’s the only way that she can satisfy the honesty concept of the Lightweavers, and the only way that she can satisfy herself. If Adolin makes her happy, she’s helping herself. In short, Shallan is kind of like a phoenix-esque character. The three old Shallans die, and a new one rises from the ashes: a strong, smart and beautiful woman who is even better than she was before. 2
Guest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ashspren said: Shallan, I believe, is using her Brightness Radiant / Veil experience as somewhat of an experiment. After trying out the three aspects of her personality, I think she is going to pick and choose some concepts in building the best version of herself that she can. As I mentioned earlier, I believe that each character has an internal struggle. With that, each person is working towards something. Shallan is working towards finding her best self, which involved experimenting with Veil, Radiant, and Shallan. No, it is pretty clear, that she split herself after Pattern showed her, that she killed her mother with him. She couldn't even hold Patternblade after that, so she created Radiant to cope with that. At this point, Veil already existed as a disguise, but more and more evolved into being split from Shallan. The point is, that she can't be without them either, since they are somehow all her. Just parts of her being compartmentalized into different virtual - not real - beings. The distinction is just in her head and the root of everything Radiant and Veil is Shallan in the end. 1 hour ago, Ashspren said: Additionally, she met both Adolin and Kaladin before she started working as Veil. Her feelings for Adolin were purely as Shallan, before the whole personality split. As she works towards her best self and staying grounded as Shallan, she’s relying on a true feeling that came before she had to be anyone else. That is wrong. At the point, where the first feelings toward Kaladin emerged she was totally and 100 % Shallan. Veil's transformation from disguise to virtual being started in OB. In fact, from a purely emotional standpoint, her feelings (back then) for Kaladin were much, much more profound. Yeah, she thinks Adolin is hot and nice, but with Kaladin she actually thought about her interpretation of how he might feel. She actually quite evaluated him and his mannerisms. Stuff she has seen in his eyes. There was a quite prompt and profound connection between them. Kaladin did the same with her. About how he realized, that she has felt pain in the past - and she didn't even have to say it to him. He just saw it in her eyes. 1 hour ago, Ashspren said: In order to become more honest, Shallan needs to find who the best Shallan is in her own eyes. No, she needs to speak Truths about herself. That is the whole progression path of the LIghtweavers. Not perfecting themselves, but indeed doing the opposite. Accepting how imperfect you actually are. 1 hour ago, Ashspren said: In short, Shallan is kind of like a phoenix-esque character. The three old Shallans die, and a new one rises from the ashes: a strong, smart and beautiful woman who is even better than she was before. She already was all of that. She just doesn't believe it herself. She sees herself as a monster. She doesn't like/love herself and thus relies on Adolin liking/loving her. Or, just believing, that he does. Edited July 19, 2018 by SLNC
Ashspren Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 @SLNC, I think at the end of Oathbringer, it was established that Kaladin doesn’t have romantic feelings towards Shallan. She reminds him of Tien, therefore showing that they might have more of a sibling relationship going forward. And she does have everything in her, she just needs to realize it. Her Fifth Ideal (aka fifth truth) is, in my opinion, going to be “I am Shallan Davar.” 1
Guest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, Ashspren said: I think at the end of Oathbringer, it was established that Kaladin doesn’t have romantic feelings towards Shallan. She reminds him of Tien, therefore showing that they might have more of a sibling relationship going forward. I don't believe, that he is honest to himself. @DeployParachute wrote a good post about why. 13 minutes ago, Ashspren said: And she does have everything in her, she just needs to realize it. Her Fifth Ideal (aka fifth truth) is, in my opinion, going to be “I am Shallan Davar.” I don't think the number of Truths is fixed and rather the amount of Truths is dependent on the individual strength of the Truths spoken. Nonetheless, this wouldn't be a rebirth, but rather accepting herself with all her faults.
Ashspren Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 Just now, SLNC said: Nonetheless, this wouldn't be a rebirth, but rather accepting herself with all her faults. I can agree with that— I misspoke earlier, then. The question, then, is whether Kaladin or Adolin would be better suited for helping her realize that.
Calderis he/him Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 Since this topic had died for a while, I've reread OB in the interim. So I do have something to contribute here. The feelings that Shallan has, in all her masks, are real. There is no "fake" Shallan. They are all her. She's just conflicted and dealing with it all in an exceptionally unhealthy manner. This is important though, because they are all her feelings, and they are all real, in regards to Kaladin, Adolin, and most importantly herself. Why that's so important is because in the end, Shallan made a choice. She looked at Kaladin and her feelings and chose Adolin. She didn't have to do that, and those feelings aren't gone, and she may change her mind, but when it comes to her and her own emotions this may be the only proactive choice she's made in the whole series. 1
Guest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Calderis said: Why that's so important is because in the end, Shallan made a choice. She looked at Kaladin and her feelings and chose Adolin. Not on the basis of feelings, but rather on the basis of Adolin "knowing her" and being better for her - in her eyes. It was a rational decision and not an emotional one. Is he really better for her? I don't know, but my stance from my current knowledge is, that he is more or less acting as an enabler of her avoidance scheme of split personality. 1 hour ago, Ashspren said: The question, then, is whether Kaladin or Adolin would be better suited for helping her realize that. I do think, that Kaladin would be more of a character calling her BS, if they'd talk about it in plain terms. I don't think, that he ever saw her as different persons like Adolin does. I wish, that she realizes it by herself though. Edited July 19, 2018 by SLNC
wotbibliophile Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Why that's so important is because in the end, Shallan made a choice. She looked at Kaladin and her feelings and chose Adolin. This sounds so good. If this had happened in the book, I think I could have been more accepting. The thing is, Shallan completely refuses to look at her feelings for Kaladin. She lies outright to Adolin that she does not have feelings for Kaladin, but that Veil does. Like you @Calderis I think all of Shallan's feelings as Shallan, Veil, and Radiant are real and belong to Shallan. Shallan is the one lost in a delusion that these feelings and people are separate. Worst of all Adolin buys it. Adolin believes Shallan's lies. 30 minutes ago, SLNC said: I don't think, that he ever saw her as different persons like Adolin does. I agree with this. 29 minutes ago, SLNC said: I wish, that she realizes it by herself though I very much want Shallan's triumphs to be Shallan's and not shared out with Kaladin or Adolin. Edited July 19, 2018 by wotbibliophile 3
Ashspren Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said: This sounds so good. If this had happened in the book, I think I could have been more accepting. The thing is, Shallan completely refuses to look at her feelings for Kaladin. She lies outright to Adolin that she does not have feelings for Kaladin, but that Veil does. Like you @Calderis I think all of Shallan's feelings as Shallan, Veil, and Radiant are real and belong to Shallan. Shallan is the one lost in a delusion that these feelings and people are separate. Worst of all Adolin buys it. Adolin believes Shallan's lies. I can see what you’re saying here. I do think, though, that Shallan truly believes that they are separate people. Once she realizes that, then she can approach everything with a clearer head. I just realized one thing, though— we’re focusing on the romantic aspect of everything, but Shallan’s choice could have also been partially made by (1) not wanting to mess with Jasnah, and/or (2) the benefits her family would get from a marriage with Adolin. Edited July 19, 2018 by Ashspren
Guest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, Ashspren said: I just realized one thing, though— we’re focusing on the romantic aspect of everything, but Shallan’s choice could have also been partially made by (1) not wanting to mess with Jasnah, and/or (2) the benefits her family would get from a marriage with Adolin. Absolutely, which wouldn't be a choice of love.
wotbibliophile Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ashspren said: I can see what you’re saying here. I do think, though, that Shallan truly believes that they are separate people. Yes, I know Shallan believes she was telling the truth. That just makes me much more concerned for her mental health. I've said before I think Shallan is crazy. I think Shallan cannot recognize reality.
Ashspren Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, SLNC said: Absolutely, which wouldn't be a choice of love. True. Maybe she was saying all of those cheesy, cliche lines to add more romance into the relationship. Who knows? @SLNC— thanks for sharing @DeployParachute’s post. That was really eye-opening, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of their analysis on Kaladin’s character. I think that if he had decided to go for the “next round,” he could have actually gotten the girl in the end... @wotbibliophile, I am concerned too. I think that the truths and ideals she speaks will help her to not live in lies. I feel that each order of the KR is geared towards helping certain people with certain issues— making Kaladin a better leader, helping Shallan live a life of truth, etc. Edited July 19, 2018 by Ashspren 1
wotbibliophile Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, Ashspren said: I think that if he had decided to go for the “next round,” he could have actually gotten the girl in the end... Oh dear. Do not taunt me with such things. OB is over. This is never going to happen. ~wistful~ 1
Ashspren Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 1 minute ago, wotbibliophile said: Oh dear. Do not taunt me with such things. OB is over. This is never going to happen. ~wistful~ I've always been ship-neutral for SKA. I will admit, though– it would be nice to see Kaladin happy. Putting his arm around a girl he loves. Kissing her on the cheek. Smiling. Isn't it just tantalizing, @wotbibliophile? I'm sorry, that was cruel...
Calderis he/him Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said: This sounds so good. If this had happened in the book, I think I could have been more accepting. What is this? Quote Adolin knows me. What was she doing? She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain. They were not her. She was occasionally them. But they were not her. Yes, she fighting feelings for Kaladin in the other two, but she created those masks. They are her, but she made a choice in that moment, and when it comes to Adolin in comparison to Kaladin she's right. I'll get into that in a moment. 1 hour ago, SLNC said: I don't think, that he ever saw her as different persons like Adolin does. This is exactly the problem though. They had a single conversation in the chasms based around a traumatic experience that is built in a way to create a rush of false emotions. It happens frequently in real life. Yes, you can build an actual relationship from that but Kaladin and Shallan haven't. They've barely spoken. Kaladin has never interacted with her masks long enough to realize she puts on a different personality. He can't have an opinion on whether they're really her or separate because he would have to interact with them long enough to have an opinion. I personally think any romantic interest he had in Shallan would ha e wilted when confronted with the fact that she wasn't, in fact, able to deal with her problems like he originally thought. He'd have wanted to help her yes... But be with her? I doubt it. The text is littered with references to how much time Shallan and Adolin spend together. They have an actual relationship. Kaladin and Shallan have a single moment in memory built out of a shared trauma that's never developed, and all of their other interactions are business. Shallan choosing Kaladin in this instance would be like someone who was trapped short term with a coworker who was only an acquaintance long enough to have one deep conversation, never speak again outside of work (where the extent of those feelings only result in a few "meaningful" glances) and then leaving the relationship you have actually worked on for someone who you have no clue how your personalities actually mesh. Outside of their traumatic situation they have no clue how their personalities would compliment or clash. Those are things you only find out by spending time together and having normal life while not fearing for your storming lives. So yes. She made a choice based on the fact that Adolin "knows her." it's also because unlike Kaladin, she actually knows him. Edited July 19, 2018 by Calderis 3
Guest Posted July 19, 2018 Posted July 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Calderis said: They had a single conversation in the chasms based around a traumatic experience that is built in a way to create a rush of false emotions. It happens frequently in real life. Yes, you can build an actual relationship from that but Kaladin and Shallan haven't. They've barely spoken. I don't know if it happens "frequently" in real life, but that is beside the point. I also don't think that there is something like false emotions. Emotions are emotions, they aren't true or false. Also, their admittance of emotions happened after the chasms, after everything cooled down for a bit. 10 minutes ago, Calderis said: Kaladin has never interacted with her masks long enough to realize she puts on a different personality. He can't have an opinion on whether they're really her or separate because he would have to interact with them long enough to have an opinion. I personally think any romantic interest he had in Shallan would ha e wilted when confronted with the fact that she wasn't, in fact, able to deal with her problems like he originally thought. He'd have wanted to help her yes... But be with her? I doubt it. You do have a point here, and on the flip side don't. Kaladin notices, that something is weird about Shallan, but he doesn't press her on it. I don't blame him, its not really his place to do so. So, we know, that he noticed something odd. Then immediately after their fateful conversation on the boat, Shallan switches to Veil in front of him and he doesn't press her on it, because for him her behavior of suggesting mutiny and stuff isn't unusual, since he knows, that she can be quite sly, if she wants to. Which is also why I think, that he'd call her on her BS and make her realize, that she always was like Veil. Adolin has never seen those sides of her. We don't know how he would have reacted. 17 minutes ago, Calderis said: Kaladin and Shallan have a single moment in memory built out of a shared trauma that's never developed, and all of their other interactions are business. And yet, Kaladin and Shallan have been a lot more honest to each other - even in these short moments. The foundation was there and yet they didn't build on it because Adolin was in between them and Shallan couldn't make a free choice there either, since she was relying on the Kholin's to help her brothers. You also forget their flight to Thaylen City, which for some reason wasn't even shown. 28 minutes ago, Calderis said: Outside of their traumatic situation they have no clue how their personalities would compliment or clash. Those are things you only find out by spending time together and having normal life while not fearing for your storming lives. Fully agreed. And that is why we also shouldn't make any assumptions about Kaladin's reaction. We just don't know. 31 minutes ago, Calderis said: So yes. She made a choice based on the fact that Adolin "knows her." it's also because unlike Kaladin, she actually knows him. Not based, but because. That was the sole reason. The things she lists later are schmoozes, that she tells Adolin to not leave her. And quite frankly, that he's nice is not deep knowledge of him, but common knowledge. I think, that you and I have very different views on what is important in relationships, so I don't think, we'll ever reach a common ground here.
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