[OB] Speculations on Unmade and the Nahel Bond

[Caevita he/him]

"It will not take a careful reader to ascertain I have listed only eight of the Unmade here. Lore is confident there were nine, an unholy number, asymmetrical and often associated with the enemy."

"I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding... fit into this paradigm."

The first quote is from an epigraph, the second is found in the Ars Arcanum. Taken together, they paint a pretty strange picture. On the one hand, Odium breaks the Rule of Ten. On the other hand, he... doesn't.

Frankly, I am not at all convinced that nine is the correct number for Odium's creations. It would certainly be unprecedented that two Shards hailing from the same planet would have magic systems featuring different magic numbers.

Which, of course, brings me to my theory. I believe the "Sibling," the enigmatic third Bondsmith spren to be the tenth Unmade, a spren from Odium. It's a bit of a stretch, but bear with me. Firstly, I'm operating under the assumption (since I couldn't find a direct confirmation of it) that the Nightwatcher is Bondsmithable Number 2. The Sibling, then, rounds a set out twice.

First, the three Bondsmith spren now hail one from each Shard (Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and now Sibling). The claim that Odium has a role in in surgebinding (while he still has Voidbinding of his own) may sound unlikely, but we already have precedent with Glys. Besides, if not one of the Unmade, what other spren even comes close to the power level of a Shard's cognitive shadow? Certainly nothing we have yet discovered.

Secondly, as I alluded to at the beginning of all of this, I believe it makes far too much sense to ignore that the Unmade would initially tally to ten. Again, at first glance, it may sound strange to claim that a spren created directly by Odium would abandon him, but the precedent is already in place with Sja-Anat.

If this theory has already been spun out, I apologize, and could you please point me to the original? If not, what do you guys think of it?

[(^_^)]

5 hours ago, Caevita said:

Frankly, I am not at all convinced that nine is the correct number for Odium's creations. It would certainly be unprecedented that two Shards hailing from the same planet would have magic systems featuring different magic numbers.

First, Odium is not "from same planet" as Honor. Originally, he had not settled in place and have been moving trough systems, essentially hunting other Shards. He got trapped in Roshar for a while, but that does not make him "of this planet". Secondly, numbers relate to Shards themselves, not planets. The whole "Shard numerology" is not really explained at length, and some Shards might not even have associated number, but if you want to mention planets and numbers, I do recall Odium saying that two Shards settling on same planet is not good, possibly because their 'numerology' might interfere with each other. Could be any other reason, but if 9 is really Odium number, then Honor was in unique position to "hijack" Odium creations by turning 9 into 10 (which also could be reason Odium had to stop at 9 Unmade). But as I've said, there is nearly nothing specific on why numbers even matter, so it's all wild speculations at this point.

 

5 hours ago, Caevita said:

Which, of course, brings me to my theory. I believe the "Sibling," the enigmatic third Bondsmith spren to be the tenth Unmade, a spren from Odium. It's a bit of a stretch, but bear with me. Firstly, I'm operating under the assumption (since I couldn't find a direct confirmation of it) that the Nightwatcher is Bondsmithable Number 2. The Sibling, then, rounds a set out twice.

First, the three Bondsmith spren now hail one from each Shard (Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and now Sibling). The claim that Odium has a role in in surgebinding (while he still has Voidbinding of his own) may sound unlikely, but we already have precedent with Glys. Besides, if not one of the Unmade, what other spren even comes close to the power level of a Shard's cognitive shadow? Certainly nothing we have yet discovered.

Theory that Sibling is of Odium is pretty common, altough again, there is nearly nothing about it, so all theories are pure guesswork. While it was never directly stated (AFAIK) that Nightwatcher and Sibling are "bondsmithable", it was confirmed that the three of them form full set, of being "shadows of god". But just as Sibling might be of Odium, he might just as well be joint creation of Honor and Cultivation (which would maek him real sibling to them).

As far as Sibling being Unmade, I doubt it. Mostly because "Unmade" suggest something had to be here in first place to be unmade, and because several of Unmade manifest powers that could be seen as corrupted powers of Radiants (Moelach, future sight, Truthwatchers, Re-Shephir, creates 'army', like Lightweaver, and is drawn to Lightweaving, Sja-anat, changes spren like Shalan changes people, Ba-Ado-Mishram provides Voidlight like Dalinar provides Stormlight). So I would say that Unmade are unmade from Radiant spren, or more likely, from 'fallen' Radiants. But I suppose your idea is just as likely, because I have to say again, there is not enough data about it all.

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, (^_^) said:

Secondly, numbers relate to Shards themselves, not planets.

I beg to differ. 

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Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

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That said, Odium is primarily invested in Braize, so the number nine being associated with his magics and creations makes sense. 

[(^_^)]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I beg to differ. 

That said, Odium is primarily invested in Braize, so the number nine being associated with his magics and creations makes sense. 

"Big RAFO"  linked with Braize thing means that it can swing both ways - Planet (or system) affecting Shards or Shards affecting planets (or whole system).

In Arcanum it was hinted that Shards created Scadrial planet, so it should not be impossible for Honor to create those 10 gas giants and 'impose" his number 10 of whole system, if that served him somehow.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, (^_^) said:

"Big RAFO"  linked with Braize thing means that it can swing both ways - Planet (or system) affecting Shards or Shards affecting planets (or whole system).

In Arcanum it was hinted that Shards created Scadrial planet, so it should not be impossible for Honor to create those 10 gas giants and 'impose" his number 10 of whole system, if that served him somehow.

The entire system was created by Adonalsium. 

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Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Was just the continent of Roshar created by Adonalsium or was the whole system created?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Whole system was created.

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Edit: @(^_^) I didn't mean to derail the thread. Sorry, I'm not sure why number theory gets under my skin so much. It's a personal pet peeve and I didn't mean to come across as to aggressive. If I did. I just believe that like the Foci, numbers are a production of the planet and not the Shard, primarily because if numbers were attributed to the Shard directly, then there should be one for every shard.

We see 10 associated with Honor, 9 with Odium, and those are the only ones that appear clear cut. 16 is relevant on Scadrial, but due to which shard? And what is the number of the other? 

This is an older, paraphrased WoB, but I still personally think it's correct. 

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The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Some do, (most/some) don't.

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So, I've vented my pet peeve. Sorry for directing that at you. Hopefully the explanation makes sense. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Calderis

[Strifelover]

We also know that while some Shards have numbers associated with them, not all do:

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The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Do all shards have a number they're associated with?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Some do, (most/some) don't.

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So the Shard numerology theory seems very unlikely, unless the theory is that only some of them have numbers associated with them. If so, that's just a pretty weird theory... On the other hand - the planet-number theory or even the Cosmere-number theory seems pretty likely given Brandon specifically referring to planets as being 10-centric or 9-centric.

Edit: Ninja'd by Calderis' own edit, apologies for being redundant. 

Edited March 6, 2018 by Strifelover

[RShara she/her]

We know there's not 10 Unmade, as well.

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Argent (paraphrased)

Is the number of Unmade fixed?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Argent (paraphrased)

Is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten, is it ten?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Is it ten? No, it's not ten.

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[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 hours ago, Caevita said:

1) "It will not take a careful reader to ascertain I have listed only eight of the Unmade here. Lore is confident there were nine, an unholy number, asymmetrical and often associated with the enemy."  - Hessi

2) "I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding... fit into this paradigm."  - Khriss

3) "A Fused strode past, covered in carapace armor as brilliant and wicked as Shardplate. There were nine orders of them. Why not ten?"  - Moash

◙ Hessi is not wrong. There are 9 Unmade, and not 10.
◘ Khriss is rather well informed, but she's most likely to be wrong because her sources are more likely to be wrong. Who's around for her to ask about Voidbinding?
◙ Whereas Moash had to have gotten his information from a Fused, or from Odium. I think they'd know what they're talking about. Alternatively, his info is from his powers of observation, but even then I think it's accurate.

You're on a good track with wondering why the numbers are different, but I'm not sure I have any answers.

[(^_^)]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@(^_^)Sorry, I'm not sure why number theory gets under my skin so much. It's a personal pet peeve and I didn't mean to come across as to aggressive. If I did.

I know it's very easy to be misunderstood on internet, so as a rule I assume nobody means anything bad (unless he really tries hard to prove otherwise), so yeah, don't worry about it.

As for WoBs, both of those don't really confirm or deny anything regarding which way numbers theory goes. First one was whether Adonalsium took existing planet and placed continent on it or if he created whole system from scratch. There was no reason for Brandon to expand and say if some Shard made futher changes to it, especially if he intends to reveal which way planet<->shard numerology goes in some future books (as "Big RAFO" would indicate). Second WoB does, clearly, for certain, state that there are shards with no associated numbers, yes. Which does support planet=>shard theory, as it provides means for deciding which shard gets to have number or not.

 

But as far as Roshar is concerned, there are multiple elements that do not fit if it's truly system that imposes numbers. Cultivation nearly does not appear at all, which might be blamed for lack of any 10-links related to her, or it's possible that she simly has no number associated, and that's why there are no links. Braize is most solid argument, because 10 outer planets suggest 10-rule spans entire system, so there would be no reason for Braize to behave differently unless it was influenced by Odium residing there. And while it's bit of a stretch, there are several cases of things on Roshar going 9-to-10 or 10-to-9, starting from Taln, 10th Herald that was not supposed to be one, Dalinar expecting 10 Radiants on his side, getting only 9, and then Wit becoming 10th (that does ignore new Windrunners, Dustbringer, and that 2 of them are technically Heralds, but Dalinar did cearly state that he got 9 and expected one more), or Moash killing Jezrien, bringing number of Heralds to 9 and possibly putting them under Odium influence. As I've said, it's a stretch, but with Brandon writing you never know which little bit will turn out to be relevant later on. Both theories are possible, but I still think Number comes from Shard, not planet.

 

As for Scadrial:

Spoiler

Scadrial cannot have Number come from planet, because planet was created by Shards, so any Number it would provide would have to come from shards in first place. But 16 is associated with Adonalsium and/or whole Cosmere, and by existence of Feruchemy which does not belong to any shard, it's possible that Ruin and Perservation took 16, "universal" constant, and used it to boost power of their creations. So 16 and Scadrial might be entirely outside Numbers theory, because event if there is question here if Adonalsium  imposed 16 upon Cosmere or was it other way around, it does not automatically make Shard-Planet relation work same way.

EDIT:

13 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

3) "A Fused strode past, covered in carapace armor as brilliant and wicked as Shardplate. There were nine orders of them. Why not ten?"  - Moash

◙ Whereas Moash had to have gotten his information from a Fused, or from Odium. I think they'd know what they're talking about. Alternatively, his info is from his powers of observation, but even then I think it's accurate.

 

 

I would say that if we assume Fused orders correspond to Radiant oders, most likely candidate for 'missing' order would be Bondsmiths. And if there is only one, it's quite likely that he is simply not in a place where Moash could hear about him, or even not yet 'fused' (as some Fused once said something like that stronger of them are yet to 'awaken'/take a body). All I'm saying, it might go both ways yet.

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by (^_^)

[Spoolofwhool]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Khriss is rather well informed, but she's most likely to be wrong because her sources are more likely to be wrong. Who's around for her to ask about Voidbinding?

WoB implies that there are ten variations in voidbinding, like surgebinding.

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BenFoley

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. For comparison, how many magic systems would you say the Wheel of Time series has? Two (One Power and the True Power)? How do you classify other abilities (not necessarily related to the One Power or True Power) such as Dreamwalking, viewing the Pattern, Wolfbrother-hoodness, and changing 'luck' or chance? Would you classify these abilities as a magic system in and of themselves? Has your chance to see the background material Robert Jordan left changed how you view these abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

Anyway, I'd say that the Wheel of Time has a fair number of Magic systems. The biggest one would be the One Power/True Power, which is more of a blanket "Large" magic system kind of like Allomancy being a blanket for sixteen powers—only the WoT magic system is far larger. I'd count what Perrin/Egwene do in Tel'aran'rhiod as a different magic system. What Mat does as something else, the Talents one can have with the Power something else. Though I'd group all of the Foretelling/Viewing powers into one.

Sounds like a topic for a paper, actually. Any of you academics out there feel like writing one?

Let's just say that The Wheel of Time has a smaller number of larger magic systems, and I tend to use a larger number of smaller magic systems. Confusing enough?

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