Arash.F he/him Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) I've just read Secret History again and faced some questions. Here are some of them about the cognitive world on Scadrial. these are more guesses and ambiguities than theories, as well as some questions (which may definitely be flawed). I would gladly hear any missing points on these issues, and sorry if these seem foolish questions to you 1-When Kelsier was running towards the Ire in the cognitive realm, he faces Ruin which could not reach him past the shores and onto the ocean. why can't Ruin reach the Ocean Island? we say that a shard resides on a planet, not only a continent. Isn't he completely free of Leras' prison at the time? We could say the area might be out of the planet, but in this case there are plant life (the cognitive version) all over the place even after Kelsier gets out of Ruin's reach, which means Ocean on the other side. 2-After more traveling, Kelsier reaches a place with no plant life. There are no life in the depth of the oceans or it's somewhere near the planet's borders? I assumed that the Ire is somewhere in the space which is out a Ruin's reach. 3-If that's the case and Elantrians are somewhere in the space, so the surface of the planet and the void outside it must have complete integrity in time-space like in physical realm. But how do they breath? 4-Is there gravity on CR or Kelsier can't fly just because he expects planet to pull him down? 5-Is the "awful tearing sensation" the same as the sensation Spoiler Shalash experienced when Jezrien died? or just a coincidence? P.S: I don't know if these are relevant questions or they just raised because I'm completely wrong about the conception of the CR. Edited February 28, 2018 by Arash.F 2
Leyrann Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 1. From how I read it, he went off-planet soon after reaching the 'ocean', and those plants are actually off-planet themselves. 2. I think this was just like plains or something in real life, or maybe a cultivated area in a way. 3. I would say the Cognitive Realm is different enough from the Physical Realm that it might not require breathing or, otherwise, there's air everywhere as that is what people would expect there to be; the Cognitive Realm forms after perception of living beings, after all. 4. Same as 3, I think this has to do with perception and expectation. 5. Been a while since I read SH, what is the context here? Also, all questions are relevant. 2
RShara she/her Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 1. Pretty much as soon as he left the "land" portion of the continent, he was on the fridges of space. WoB says that he wasn't quite in interstellar space but definitely off the planet by the time he reached the Ire. 2. I'm not sure I understand the question here, sorry. 3. The CR doesn't follow exactly the same rules as the Physical Realm. Also, Kelsier isn't alive. The CR is (at least for now) made up entirely of Investiture. Any perception of breathing, gravity, eating, etc, is like the Residual Self Image in Matrix. You do it because you perceive you're doing it, and because you're used to it. 4. Because the CR is shaped by sapient thought, and the sapient beings we know all expect gravity and such to function, the CR has gravity. 5. Can you give the context for this question? I don't remember what scene describes this. 1
Arash.F he/him Posted February 28, 2018 Author Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Leyrann said: 1. From how I read it, he went off-planet soon after reaching the 'ocean', and those plants are actually off-planet themselves. 3 hours ago, RShara said: 1. Pretty much as soon as he left the "land" portion of the continent, he was on the fridges of space. WoB says that he wasn't quite in interstellar space but definitely off the planet by the time he reached the Ire. Thank you very much for your time! Yes as he said, being in the interstellar space is totally different from being off a planet. We know that Voyager has just reached interstellar space after 40 years, but all satellites are already off the planet. But how can plant life exist in the space? Does anyone expect life to exist there? And my next question is that Kelsier WAS running towards the oceans (Westwards). I mean, can't anyone explore the ocean even if he/she wants to? I just don't understand how does Kelsier intends to travel West far into the ocean and he ends up in the space. Is it possible that the fact that he intended to find Ire (not merely going westwards), has gotten him into the Ire and not into the middle of the ocean? 3 hours ago, RShara said: 2. I'm not sure I understand the question here, sorry. Sorry if I was not clear enough. I mean after stepping onto the ocean, there are still plants around him. We read that: Plant life grew all around him [,,,] There were some bits of mist in here. If he knelt by the ground and looked for them, he could find little glowing spirits. Fish, sea plants. They manifested here above the ground, though in the ocean on the other side they were probably down within the depths. But after going further on, he reaches a place with no visible sign of life: He hiked through the jungle for days, but then it started to dwindle. Eventually he reached a place where plants grew only in occasional patches. They were replaced with strange formations of rock, like glassy sculptures. [...] nothing seemed to be alive out here in either Realm. So at first, he really WAS walking on the ocean. But he didn't exactly know which way he's going. Only that pulling sensation coming from Scadrial let him choose the right direction. I don't understand the geography or dimensions here. 6 hours ago, Leyrann said: 3. I would say the Cognitive Realm is different enough from the Physical Realm that it might not require breathing or, otherwise, there's air everywhere as that is what people would expect there to be; the Cognitive Realm forms after perception of living beings, after all. 4. Same as 3, I think this has to do with perception and expectation. 3 hours ago, RShara said: 3. The CR doesn't follow exactly the same rules as the Physical Realm. Also, Kelsier isn't alive. The CR is (at least for now) made up entirely of Investiture. Any perception of breathing, gravity, eating, etc, is like the Residual Self Image in Matrix. You do it because you perceive you're doing it, and because you're used to it. 4. Because the CR is shaped by sapient thought, and the sapient beings we know all expect gravity and such to function, the CR has gravity. Also, thanks for these two. I had guessed that it might be the case. Just needed to be sure though. 6 hours ago, Leyrann said: 5. Been a while since I read SH, what is the context here? 3 hours ago, RShara said: 5. Can you give the context for this question? I don't remember what scene describes this. It's from the SH's beginning: Kelsier died. It turned out to be far more painful a process than he had anticipated. Instead of a soft fade to nothingness, he felt an awful tearing sensation—as if he were a cloth caught between the jaws of two vicious hounds. And in OB we have: Spoiler Ash stopped in place as something ripped inside of her. [...]A loss, a hole inside of her, a piece of her soul being excised. I don't have any idea on this one! Might be as well something totally irrelevant, just a coincidence. Edited February 28, 2018 by Arash.F Typos
RShara she/her Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 Oh I think I know what's happening here. The Cognitive Realm is flat. It also grows and shrinks based on whether people (human or not) are thinking about and/or living there. Uninhabited space like oceans gradually peters out and transitions into actual space. Since Scadrial is mostly just 2 continents, there's a lot of ocean where nothing lives and no one is thinking much about, which makes its transition to actual outside-of-atmosphere space less obvious and quicker. The Cognitive Realm has its own inhabitants and life forms that don't....completely...rely on people thinking about them to grow. Actual life and objects are represented by misty shapes. I think the plant-like growths are CR lifeforms, like spren except not at all sentient or mobile. Maybe like plants that people imagine? Unsure. Ah. I think the similarity is semi-coincidental. Like, they are both very traumatic experiences involving the soul. Kelsier's dying, so he's getting ripped from his body. Ash feels the part of her that was joined with Jezrien being ripped away. You might think of it as Ash feeling second hand what Kelsier felt first hand? She's feeling Jezrien's soul being ripped from his body.
Leyrann Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, Arash.F said: Thank you very much for your time! Yes as he said, being in the interstellar space is totally different from being off a planet. We know that Voyager has just reached interstellar space after 40 years, but all satellites are already off the planet. But how can plant life exist in the space? Does anyone expect life to exist there? And my next question is that Kelsier WAS running towards the oceans (Westwards). I mean, can't anyone explore the ocean even if he/she wants to? I just don't understand how does Kelsier intends to travel West far into the ocean and he ends up in the space. Is it possible that the fact that he intended to find Ire (not merely going westwards), has gotten him into the Ire and not into the middle of the ocean? The Cognitive Realm is 2-dimensional, so if you travel far enough into one direction, you'll end up in "space", though space is actually much smaller in the Cognitive Realm because there's barely anything to manifest in the Cognitive Realm. As for the plant life, those plants don't resemble actual, Physical Realm plant life; rather, they're special to the Cognitive Realm. 8 minutes ago, Arash.F said: It's from the SH's beginning: Kelsier died. It turned out to be far more painful a process than he had anticipated. Instead of a soft fade to nothingness, he felt an awful tearing sensation—as if he were a cloth caught between the jaws of two vicious hounds. And in OB we have: Reveal hidden contents Ash stopped in place as something ripped inside of her. [...]A loss, a hole inside of her, a piece of her soul being excised. I don't have any idea on this one! Might be as well something totally irrelevant, just a coincidence. Actually, you might be on to something here. Maybe the Heralds are, in a way, all linked to one another, just like someone's Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual self are all linked.
RShara she/her Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 Just now, Leyrann said: The Cognitive Realm is 2-dimensional, so if you travel far enough into one direction, you'll end up in "space", though space is actually much smaller in the Cognitive Realm because there's barely anything to manifest in the Cognitive Realm. As for the plant life, those plants don't resemble actual, Physical Realm plant life; rather, they're special to the Cognitive Realm. Actually, you might be on to something here. Maybe the Heralds are, in a way, all linked to one another, just like someone's Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual self are all linked. Not exactly two-dimensional. But flat, yes. I thought it was confirmed that the Heralds are linked? The Stormfather talks about it.
Leyrann Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, RShara said: Not exactly two-dimensional. But flat, yes. I thought it was confirmed that the Heralds are linked? The Stormfather talks about it. True, they're all linked. I was thinking about it being more specific than just arbitrary "linking" though, possbly using the same mechanism that life uses. (in accordance, obviously, with my Surges theory, which I didn't really feel like advertising here but I guess I'm doing so anyways) Also we should stop giving the same answers at the same time. Edited February 28, 2018 by Leyrann
Wandering Investor Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 There tearing sensation Kelsier feels is his soul being torn to pieces while Ash is having a connection ripped off. I think in this case tear is being used to express horrible pain. But it depends on just how the Heralds are linked. It may be that Jezerain's death actually torn a hole in Ash's soul, which would be similar to Kelsier at that point. But hard to say without knowing the nature of their connections. The Stormfather claims the Heralds relied on each other in Damnation, but its unclear whether that meant that had a spiritual connection that balanced out the pain, or if they just mentally relied on each others presense as a form of mental support.
RShara she/her Posted February 28, 2018 Posted February 28, 2018 55 minutes ago, Leyrann said: True, they're all linked. I was thinking about it being more specific than just arbitrary "linking" though, possbly using the same mechanism that life uses. (in accordance, obviously, with my Surges theory, which I didn't really feel like advertising here but I guess I'm doing so anyways) Also we should stop giving the same answers at the same time. Never. I am the
Arash.F he/him Posted March 1, 2018 Author Posted March 1, 2018 10 hours ago, RShara said: Oh I think I know what's happening here. The Cognitive Realm is flat. It also grows and shrinks based on whether people (human or not) are thinking about and/or living there. Uninhabited space like oceans gradually peters out and transitions into actual space. Since Scadrial is mostly just 2 continents, there's a lot of ocean where nothing lives and no one is thinking much about, which makes its transition to actual outside-of-atmosphere space less obvious and quicker. 10 hours ago, Leyrann said: The Cognitive Realm is 2-dimensional, so if you travel far enough into one direction, you'll end up in "space", though space is actually much smaller in the Cognitive Realm because there's barely anything to manifest in the Cognitive Realm. As for the plant life, those plants don't resemble actual, Physical Realm plant life; rather, they're special to the Cognitive Realm. Oh i get it. I didn't know this fact. So you mean that "space" in there is not simply sth like a negative (as in photos!) to PR? If it's true, this is only true for uninhabited locations. We've seen the map of Shadesmar which is something like the negative of physical Roshar. And this Shrinkage you spoke of, you mean only a relative shrinkage in distances (in 2 dimensions) or there's also complications in directions and dimensions? If that's the case mapping the Cognitive Realm would be really really difficult. Or maybe I'm just seeing hallucinations because i don't understand how it works!!! 10 hours ago, Wandering Investor said: There tearing sensation Kelsier feels is his soul being torn to pieces while Ash is having a connection ripped off. I think in this case tear is being used to express horrible pain. But it depends on just how the Heralds are linked. It may be that Jezerain's death actually torn a hole in Ash's soul, which would be similar to Kelsier at that point. But hard to say without knowing the nature of their connections. The Stormfather claims the Heralds relied on each other in Damnation, but its unclear whether that meant that had a spiritual connection that balanced out the pain, or if they just mentally relied on each others presense as a form of mental support. And as for the sensation: So it is caused losing one's connection between the spirit and the physical body (in Kelsier case it's clear). And you say that "ripped off" thing was different from the "tearing sensation". Which I find logical. Spoiler If Shalash was experiencing a similar thing, we could say that all Heralds experienced what Jezrien experienced in that moment. Like they all experienced it directly, which is impossible due to their different amount of "torture resistance" in Damnation while enduring pains. Spoiler So they all just sensed what happened to Jezrien due to their connection.
Leyrann Posted March 1, 2018 Posted March 1, 2018 The Coppermind has an explanation of the Cognitive Realm, though it seems they don't mention that it's flat: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Cognitive_Realm If there are things you still don't understand, feel free to ask, right now I just don't have the time to write it out though, which is why I'm giving you a link. By the way, with the [OB] tag in the title there's no need to put anything in the post itself or replies in spoiler tags. 1
Calderis he/him Posted March 1, 2018 Posted March 1, 2018 (edited) On 2/28/2018 at 11:49 PM, Arash.F said: Or maybe I'm just seeing hallucinations because i don't understand how it works!!! The short answer is that according to natural laws it doesn't. There's still three dimensions in that one there is an up and down, but the Cognitive as a whole exists on flat plane geographically. The physical realm functions exactly like our own, but the Cognitive has hard borders. Quote Questioner 1 You said that moving people like that [Cognitive Shadows] or spren off-world, from Roshar is difficult. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner 1 What about physically, say the Ones Above visit them, and they fly away? Brandon Sanderson So one of the things you'll have to be asking questions and theorizing on is what happens if you try to carry a spren around the planet. What happens to their Cognitive sense, right? So you're on Roshar, right? So on the Physical Realm what would happen-- Because on Shadesmar, you have a flattened version. So there are questions for you to be theorizing implicit in that. And one of them is, what happens, you cross a threshold circling the globe, your spren, what happens to them? Because-- Okay? This relates to the question you’re asking. Questioner 2 Wait wait, you have a three dimensional plain coexisting with a two dimensional plain? Brandon Sanderson Well, two dimensional is the wrong term, but basically... Questioner 3 Can you specify the mathematically projection used to create this? *laughter* Brandon Sanderson We'll try to give it to you eventually, but this is the sort of stuff that I do that Peter's like "Oh man..." *laughter* "Alright give me the math Peter." "Ahhh what do you mean? I'm not a mathematician." "Eh, y'know. You're close." It is very convenient to have a physicist and a mathematician in my writing group. source As to the expansion and contraction of that space, the more dense Cognitive activity is, or the more thought focused at an area, in the Cognitive Realm the more heavily represented that place is and has a greater area. The majority of space has no inhabitants and no reason to be thought of so it becomes infinitesimal, which is what allows worldhoppers to travel the light-years of distance between world. This functions on world as well. Quote Questioner So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. Brandon Sanderson Mhm Questioner So when Kelsier... Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Questioner ...in Shadesmar. He meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrian. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Like how far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's within-- he has s-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into kind of the darkness between planets. Questioner Okay. Brandon Sanderson He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system. Questioner Okay, so he's <still there> in the Scadrian system, just... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yep. Questioner Okay, just edging it there. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, mhm. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point <at> him. I would get really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense. Questioner That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but... Brandon Sanderson It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah. Questioner Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar... Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Questioner ...in the Cognitive Realm... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah. Questioner So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or-- Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't. Questioner So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it's *inaudible* would it... Brandon Sanderson It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause... Questioner Right. Brandon Sanderson But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hoakie, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that. Questioner That's interesting. Brandon Sanderson You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar. source Edited March 2, 2018 by Calderis 1
Arash.F he/him Posted March 2, 2018 Author Posted March 2, 2018 On 3/1/2018 at 11:23 AM, Leyrann said: The Coppermind has an explanation of the Cognitive Realm, though it seems they don't mention that it's flat: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Cognitive_Realm If there are things you still don't understand, feel free to ask, right now I just don't have the time to write it out though, which is why I'm giving you a link. By the way, with the [OB] tag in the title there's no need to put anything in the post itself or replies in spoiler tags. Oh thank you! Surely I would ask! thank you for your time and also for that spoiler stuff recommendation!!! Would be quite a relief! On 3/1/2018 at 5:19 PM, Calderis said: As to the expansion and Co traction of that space, the more dense Cognitive activity is, or the more thought focused at an area, in the Cognitive Realm, the more heavily represented that place is and has a greater area. The majority of space had no inhabitants and no reason to be thought of so it becomes infinitesimal, which is what allows worldhoppers to travel the light-years of distance between world. This functions on world as well. Oh dude! That is quite brilliant and well-thought! (Of course it's what everyone expects from Brandon!) And thanks for those Words of Brandon! I hadn't read them before. Quite helpful!
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