[OB] Underwhelming

[Walkerxes]

IronBars* stupid auto correct

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Moash wasn't a 180. You can dessert, you can betray your country, you can lie, cheat, steal, but if you betray your friends you are rotten to the core and there is nothing that can fix you. It was obvious from the end of WoR he'd walk the most vile path imaginable.

The reason I call Moash a 180 is because he had doubts and regrets over what happened with Kaladin. He made he hated where he'd ended up and he blamed himself. He had fully intended to fight back against the Fused... And then he saw that a small group of people resisting had put a lighteyes in charge, most likely out of a desire for familiarity, he decided that all of humanity, darkeyes and lighteyes alike were irredeemable? When he'd just been following Graves? It was too sudden a mental shift. 

14 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Main character that was tossed to the wind was Amaram.

Amaram bothers me too, but that's more a matter of showing instead of telling. 

Amaram was a zealot. When the faith of a zealot breaks it shatters hard. If we had seen his reaction to reading about the vision of the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, that would have been enough for me, but being told about it after the fact bothers me. 

[Walkerxes]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The reason I call Moash a 180 is because he had doubts and regrets over what happened with Kaladin. He made he hated where he'd ended up and he blamed himself. He had fully intended to fight back against the Fused... And then he saw that a small group of people resisting had put a lighteyes in charge, most likely out of a desire for familiarity, he decided that all of humanity, darkeyes and lighteyes alike were irredeemable? When he'd just been following Graves? It was too sudden a mental shift. 

Amaram bothers me too, but that's more a matter of showing instead of telling. 

Amaram was a zealot. When the faith of a zealot breaks it shatters hard. If we had seen his reaction to reading about the vision of the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, that would have been enough for me, but being told about it after the fact bothers me. 

I was a bit dissapointed with Amaram.. I thought for sure he could be redeemed.. suddenly fully turning to Odium seemed off for him, considering everything he'd done previously had been for the"greater good"

[IronBars he/him]

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Sigh...

Okay. First off, I read through all three pages, and over the course of those three pages your writing became more insulting, and more haphazard the more often you posted. To contradict me when I'm analyzing three pages by point out a reply to one of the very first replies, does not reflect that that behavior continued on throughout the discussion, hence my point. Second, it doesn't matter where I'm from, but perhaps you should take a look at how other people are reacting to your arguments throughout the thread--it's clearly not me imagining in my own different way of talking. Perhaps you're not getting heated--if so, then the need for going back and rereading your posts is even more tantamount.

I'm not going to play grammar nazi on you, but the punctuation is much better in this post, so thank you.

I'm not trying to be insulting, so if that's coming across I apologize. I do make assumptions based on the way you write and the arguments you've made (I do that with everyone on here)--but if you notice, I also gave you free reign to tell me I'm wrong. The fact that I'm telling you what assumptions I'm making, rather than simply attacking based on those assumptions, is also indicative that I'm not trying to insult you. However, I do naturally have a slightly acerbic way of speaking (I have to carefully proofread and sometimes I miss it) so that's probably what you're picking up on.

To counter your point about our opinions not having to match, however (which you are making a repeated point of in this post, and which point I don't actually disagree with), you have practically bludgeoned your point across the thread--others in this post have tried to voice their own thoughts, backing them up with textual evidence, and when they do, instead of simply ignoring it as you are trying to paint yourself, you've actively and antagonistically argued with those who oppose your view. If you're going to post in a forum, you have to expect discussion. Discussion is about the exchange of ideas and thoughts. What you've done here is simply argue with everyone you don't agree with--you're not backing up your arguments with any evidence or even your own examples--you're just saying they're wrong. And that is not good for a forum.

As for the last sentence, you're making an assumption that I blindly follow whatever the author's intent is, thereby contradicting your own comment that you don't make assumptions about me. For the record, I don't blindly follow the author. But I do read a large variety of "epic fantasy" and I do observe that there are certain trends in writing things. I take the author's intent into account, but I make my own judgements and thoughts on the material. You'll notice for example, if you look at other boards, I'm quite firm on my interpretation of Shallan as a character.

You're right. She doesn't. In fact, her reticence to embrace that truth is what propels her into the regressive arc of the book. Just because she doesn't embrace the truth doesn't mean that she doesn't develop as a character.

You know what? You're right. I'm sorry for that comprehend comment. I didn't intend it the way that it apparently came across.

That said, I believe I actually acknowledged some of the subtlety in the plot detail in my post about this. I did however, lament the character progression as non-existent. In the little bit of Malazan that I read, the characters were simply objects that the plot acted upon. They had almost no life to me. Not that the dialogue wasn't good or anything, but the actual arcs of the characters were non-existent. Because of that, I got bored. But that doesn't mean you're a bad person or incompetent or anything of the sort because you feel differently--it's great that you have something you love. I actually love Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, specifically the books in the middle that most people find dull and boring. I think they're awesome, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

For that matter, I'm not trying to change your opinion either. Bygones is bygones. You can have your own opinion. That's fine. But if you're going to post your opinion in a forum, you have to be prepared for people like me, who like to back up their arguments and have actual discussions. No insults intended.

 

Ok i have no problem people expressing an opinion, if i did i would not of posted here in the first place, most people i know in real life don't read much so came here to discuss the book because no one to discuss it with, 

At no point in this thread did i intend to be argumentative or antagonistic to anyone, im guessing its because we are from different places, and also the fact that its hard to infer whether or not a person is being a certain way in txt, 

I shared an opinion of OB as i seen it, alot of people agree with me, alot dont, if someone picks a particular point i discuss it with them, if somehow that came across as arguing then i apologise but barring one place i dont see where that occured and i addressed that above.

[Alderant she/her]

20 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The way I see it, Shallan said the 4th ideal before she was ready because it was either say it or all the alethi army died. I think when a KR is close enough to their next ideal but not quite ready they can say it, but they can have a bad backlash from an Oath said before they are ready for it. I think Kaladin could have said the 4th ideal, because he knew the words, it was just very hard for him as he wasn't quite ready. If Dalinar hadn't made the perpendicularity then Kaladin would have likely said the 4th Oath, saved the day, then been a mess for a few months as he came to terms with having said an Ideal a bit too early. 

I understand why Shallan regressed, but I still hated it. Shallan was so boring for me, even more than in TWoK. I'll probably skip her chapters on re-reads same as I do in WoK and first part of WoR. It was interesting when she spoke with Hoid, but the rest of her was yawn-worthy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Shallan's 4th Truth given in Urithiru--after the Alethi army had already been saved? Or are we counting "There's something different about my shardblade from all other shardblades" as her 4th Truth? Because I always thought that that sentence was the preamble to her 4th Truth in Urithiru.

As to your second paragraph, that makes me sad. What about Shallan do you find boring? Is it the fact that she's a scholar/artist, or that she doesn't have a lot of "action"?

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Shallan's 4th Truth given in Urithiru--after the Alethi army had already been saved? Or are we counting "There's something different about my shardblade from all other shardblades" as her 4th Truth? Because I always thought that that sentence was the preamble to her 4th Truth in Urithiru.

As to your second paragraph, that makes me sad. What about Shallan do you find boring? Is it the fact that she's a scholar/artist, or that she doesn't have a lot of "action"?

Alderant is correct.  Pattern forced Shallan to speak the 4th Truth in her room at Urithiru.

 

Personally, there are times I find the characters boring, and times when I find them interesting.  Since that's true of normal people as well, that makes them realistic

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, IronBars said:

Ok i have no problem people expressing an opinion, if i did i would not of posted here in the first place, most people i know in real life don't read much so came here to discuss the book because no one to discuss it with, 

At no point in this thread did i intend to be argumentative or antagonistic to anyone, im guessing its because we are from different places, and also the fact that its hard to infer whether or not a person is being a certain way in txt, 

I shared an opinion of OB as i seen it, alot of people agree with me, alot dont, if someone picks a particular point i discuss it with them, if somehow that came across as arguing then i apologise but barring one place i dont see where that occured and i addressed that above.

Okay. That's perfectly fine. All I was asking was for you to dial back the vehemence of your arguments and acknowledge the other side more.

For the record IronBars, if I ever say something that offends you, just tell me. 99.997% of the time the offense is unintended. It's just the way I talk, and I type almost exactly the same as the way I talk (though with bigger words).

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Okay. That's perfectly fine. All I was asking was for you to dial back the vehemence of your arguments and acknowledge the other side more.

For the record IronBars, if I ever say something that offends you, just tell me. 99.997% of the time the offense is unintended. It's just the way I talk, and I type almost exactly the same as the way I talk (though with bigger words).

That happens to me all the time too.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The reason I call Moash a 180 is because he had doubts and regrets over what happened with Kaladin. He made he hated where he'd ended up and he blamed himself. He had fully intended to fight back against the Fused... And then he saw that a small group of people resisting had put a lighteyes in charge, most likely out of a desire for familiarity, he decided that all of humanity, darkeyes and lighteyes alike were irredeemable? When he'd just been following Graves? It was too sudden a mental shift. 

Amaram bothers me too, but that's more a matter of showing instead of telling. 

Amaram was a zealot. When the faith of a zealot breaks it shatters hard. If we had seen his reaction to reading about the vision of the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, that would have been enough for me, but being told about it after the fact bothers me. 

Both are good points. Maybe Amaram just needed more page time. Moash...yeah no, Moash was doomed to the dark side. I'm not really sure he was planning to fight against the Fused. Even before he saw the lighteyes put in charge what did he enjoy the most? Seeing a lighteyes carrying water (pettiness, revenge, hatred). He wandered around the camp miffed he was a slave instead of been questioned (he wanted to be important/have attention/not be forgotten). I just think he wanted always to walk the mentally easier path. He didn't shy from physical labor, but he just refused to ever tread mentally complex ideas. He just wanted the world to be white and black.

[Alderant she/her]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

That happens to me all the time too.

...me offending you?

[RShara she/her]

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

...me offending you?

Absolutely.

(No, me accidentally offending someone)

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, RShara said:

Absolutely.

(No, me accidentally offending someone)

Oh I see, haha.

Yeah, I've been called out on it several times in my life. I had a teacher in high school sit me down and tell me I was too brusque, and I was insulting my peers instead of helping to perpetuate a discussion. So I just make it a policy to tell everyone that. That's why it's in my profile bio, haha.

[IronBars he/him]

30 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Sigh...

Okay. First off, I read through all three pages, and over the course of those three pages your writing became more insulting, and more haphazard the more often you posted. To contradict me when I'm analyzing three pages by point out a reply to one of the very first replies, does not reflect that that behavior continued on throughout the discussion, hence my point. Second, it doesn't matter where I'm from, but perhaps you should take a look at how other people are reacting to your arguments throughout the thread--it's clearly not me imagining in my own different way of talking. Perhaps you're not getting heated--if so, then the need for going back and rereading your posts is even more tantamount.

I'm not going to play grammar nazi on you, but the punctuation is much better in this post, so thank you.

I'm not trying to be insulting, so if that's coming across I apologize. I do make assumptions based on the way you write and the arguments you've made (I do that with everyone on here)--but if you notice, I also gave you free reign to tell me I'm wrong. The fact that I'm telling you what assumptions I'm making, rather than simply attacking based on those assumptions, is also indicative that I'm not trying to insult you. However, I do naturally have a slightly acerbic way of speaking (I have to carefully proofread and sometimes I miss it) so that's probably what you're picking up on.

To counter your point about our opinions not having to match, however (which you are making a repeated point of in this post, and which point I don't actually disagree with), you have practically bludgeoned your point across the thread--others in this post have tried to voice their own thoughts, backing them up with textual evidence, and when they do, instead of simply ignoring it as you are trying to paint yourself, you've actively and antagonistically argued with those who oppose your view. If you're going to post in a forum, you have to expect discussion. Discussion is about the exchange of ideas and thoughts. What you've done here is simply argue with everyone you don't agree with--you're not backing up your arguments with any evidence or even your own examples--you're just saying they're wrong. And that is not good for a forum.

As for the last sentence, you're making an assumption that I blindly follow whatever the author's intent is, thereby contradicting your own comment that you don't make assumptions about me. For the record, I don't blindly follow the author. But I do read a large variety of "epic fantasy" and I do observe that there are certain trends in writing things. I take the author's intent into account, but I make my own judgements and thoughts on the material. You'll notice for example, if you look at other boards, I'm quite firm on my interpretation of Shallan as a character.

You're right. She doesn't. In fact, her reticence to embrace that truth is what propels her into the regressive arc of the book. Just because she doesn't embrace the truth doesn't mean that she doesn't develop as a character.

You know what? You're right. I'm sorry for that comprehend comment. I didn't intend it the way that it apparently came across.

That said, I believe I actually acknowledged some of the subtlety in the plot detail in my post about this. I did however, lament the character progression as non-existent. In the little bit of Malazan that I read, the characters were simply objects that the plot acted upon. They had almost no life to me. Not that the dialogue wasn't good or anything, but the actual arcs of the characters were non-existent. Because of that, I got bored. But that doesn't mean you're a bad person or incompetent or anything of the sort because you feel differently--it's great that you have something you love. I actually love Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, specifically the books in the middle that most people find dull and boring. I think they're awesome, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

For that matter, I'm not trying to change your opinion either. Bygones is bygones. You can have your own opinion. That's fine. But if you're going to post your opinion in a forum, you have to be prepared for people like me, who like to back up their arguments and have actual discussions. No insults intended.

 

Ok i have no problem people expressing an opinion, if i did i would not of posted here in the first place, most people i know in real life don't read much so came here to discuss the book because no one to discuss it with, 

At no point in this thread did i intend to be argumentative or antagonistic to anyone, im guessing its because we are from different places, and also the fact that its hard to infer whether or not a person is being a certain way in txt, 

I shared an opinion of OB as i seen it, alot of people agree with me, alot dont, if someone picks a particular point i discuss it with them, if somehow that came across as arguing then i apologise but barring one place i dont see where that occured and i addressed that above.

 @Bort

Well, you do start off by missing pretty much all of the foreshadowing about Teft. From your OP:

  Quote

teft suddenly being a crack head was a bit weird, and out the blue

Multiple people in the thread pointed out instances where it was foreshadowed that something was up with Teft. It was never explicitly stated what his problem was until Oathbringer, but the signs he had a problem were there.

Ok if you read the thread you woulf see i stated several times it was the level of the addiction was out the blue with my reasons why i said this

Also from your OP:

  Quote

Was obvious the humans were the real voidbringers since book 1, found this revelation to be kinda silly and it being the reason for the recreance a bit of a cop out.

You apparently missed the explicitly explained reason for the Recreance, and that wasn't even foreshadowing. That was outright explained.

again explained this is a different part of the thread, the reason for the recreance was because they were hit with the realisation they were the voidbringers and could cause the destruction of the planet.

From another of your posts:

  Quote

In 99% of oathbreaker shallan is the same as in WoR, and to a certain degree TWoK, her character has devoloped atal......

Again, not really foreshadowing, but you apparently missed all of Shallan's lessons in all three books.

Ok, her character hasn't devoloped, shes pretty much the same person with same issues only deeper, her issues being deeper isnt devolopment, as for lessons shes learned she pretty much lucks out of every situation shes put in and causes more damage then good with her attempts at pretending to be something shes not 

 

30 minutes ago, Walkerxes said:

Iron bars, in the end I respect your opinion that, for you, OB was not what you were hoping for. For me, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I respectfully disagree with some of your points, and agree on others. 

For me, the book fit. Both with character development and plot development. In a 10 book series, you can't move that fast, and I feel OB progressed the story as much as was needed.

Again im glad you enjoyed the book, i at no point said it was a bad book, i said it was an ok book, but just for me personally too much didnt make as much sense/add up as it should of.

Not sure why that went like that and cant fix it on phone.

Edited February 19, 2018 by IronBars

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

7 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Shallan's 4th Truth given in Urithiru--after the Alethi army had already been saved? Or are we counting "There's something different about my shardblade from all other shardblades" as her 4th Truth? Because I always thought that that sentence was the preamble to her 4th Truth in Urithiru.

As to your second paragraph, that makes me sad. What about Shallan do you find boring? Is it the fact that she's a scholar/artist, or that she doesn't have a lot of "action"?

I assumed Shallan said half her 4th Truth on the plain to save the army, then had to finish the Truth which is why Pattern forced her to remember. 

On the second part, I don't mind that Shallan is an artist or scholar, I've got 2 main problems with her: 

1. She is a completely unreliable narrator. She can say the sky is blue and it may be red in reality. Figuring out the truth from the lens of a person's perception is fun, but Shallan takes it too far. You never know if what you are reading from her is really happening or not.

2. She changes all the time. She was shy, idealistic, naive and scholastic in WoK. Which I found to be boring but alright. She was blooming, powerful, idealistic and scholastic in WoR. Which seemed to me intriguing and a natural progression. She was a mess who hated scholarship, responsibility and power. Which I found to be exasperating to the point I didn't even want to figure her out, considering those things had been the dreams and goals of her whole 17 years of life. 

It doesn't make me hate her, it just makes me indifferent to her, and slightly annoyed when she takes up book space that another character could be using. 

[Alderant she/her]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I assumed Shallan said half her 4th Truth on the plain to save the army, then had to finish the Truth which is why Pattern forced her to remember. 

On the second part, I don't mind that Shallan is an artist or scholar, I've got 2 main problems with her: 

1. She is a completely unreliable narrator. She can say the sky is blue and it may be red in reality. Figuring out the truth from the lens of a person's perception is fun, but Shallan takes it too far. You never know if what you are reading from her is really happening or not.

2. She changes all the time. She was shy, idealistic, naive and scholastic in WoK. Which I found to be boring but alright. She was blooming, powerful, idealistic and scholastic in WoR. Which seemed to me intriguing and a natural progression. She was a mess who hated scholarship, responsibility and power. Which I found to be exasperating to the point I didn't even want to figure her out, considering those things had been the dreams and goals of her whole 17 years of life. 

It doesn't make me hate her, it just makes me indifferent to her, and slightly annoyed when she takes up book space that another character could be using. 

Okay, that makes sense. I can see why you'd get frustrated by that. I look at her character quite differently from how you describe, I look at her more as like a blacksmith's puzzle to be figured out and unlocked.

[Alderant she/her]

4 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Ok, her character hasn't devoloped, shes pretty much the same person with same issues only deeper, her issues being deeper isnt devolopment, as for lessons shes learned she pretty much lucks out of every situation shes put in and causes more damage then good with her attempts at pretending to be something shes not

Okay. This is a point that I will never agree with you on, haha. If you want to have a discussion about it let me know.

[IronBars he/him]

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Okay. This is a point that I will never agree with you on, haha. If you want to have a discussion about it let me know.

In what way do you disagree ?

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, IronBars said:

In what way do you disagree ?

Problems worsening is still change. 

And the development of new personalities is something she did before... When? Veil was an act previously. The fracturing into actual identities is something new. 

Like I've said multiple times, "character development" does not mean improvement. 

[Bort he/him]

Not going to try to use quotes, since they were broken last time I did, and it would only compound the problem.

On Teft:

I wonder if how you view the addiction is the reason you dismissed the foreshadowing, or were unimpressed by the result. If you view all drug addictions like those you see depicted most often, namely the worst ones, then yeah, I can see why you'd be surprised. But I've seen friends who have been addicted to "lesser" drugs, not heroine or cocaine, or any of the others that really do make it so you can't cope with reality without your fix, and they are quite capable of dealing with the world while sober, but as soon as they are able, they will indulge again. Without turning to crime to fund their habit. Being deprived of their source of addiction for a time, though, then being given plenty of money with which to indulge, and the freedom to do so, is it surprising Teft went off the deep end in Oathbringer? The addiction may not even be as bad as depicted in Oathbringer, for this reason.

On Voidbringers:

In your initial post, you say the reason for the Recreance was because the Radiants discovered Humans were the Voidbringers. You made no mention that they could destroy the planet until it is brought up by someone else. The Radiants probably could have survived if it was just the bit about being Voidbringers, but it was the knowledge that they held the power to destroy the world (and that they believed they had already saved it), that persuaded them to sacrifice it. When held up to the standards given to them in conversation between Dalinar and the Stormfather, the Recreance becomes much less of a betrayal, and a lot more of a noble but woefully misunderstood act.

On Shallan:

Your last reply to me about Shallan makes my point about you missing things clearly. You see it as an unsatisfying story about someone who isn't improving. I see it as someone who is badly trying to hide from their deepest secrets, fracturing herself because she is trying to hide from the Truth she swore as a Radiant, and literally coming face to face with the fact that she's not the people she is claiming to be. Pattern, along with Shallan's earlier mistakes in WoR, pretty much bullied her into speaking the 4th Truth before she was ready, I think, and this was the outcome. It's not character development as in she didn't get a massive power boost and everything was hunky-dory, but it was still the character developing in new and interesting ways. In my mind at least.

Also, I should have put this into my last post really, but sorry if I came across as conceited earlier. I didn't mean to, but was a bit irked by something you had said before that and let it slip through.

[Alderant she/her]

29 minutes ago, Bort said:

I see it as someone who is badly trying to hide from their deepest secrets, fracturing herself because she is trying to hide from the Truth she swore as a Radiant, and literally coming face to face with the fact that she's not the people she is claiming to be. Pattern, along with Shallan's earlier mistakes in WoR, pretty much bullied her into speaking the 4th Truth before she was ready, I think, and this was the outcome. It's not character development as in she didn't get a massive power boost and everything was hunky-dory, but it was still the character developing in new and interesting ways. In my mind at least.

This^^

Also, @IronBars, I have five hours left in Bands of Mourning, and then I am starting a read through of all three SA books, where I will be focusing specifically on Shallan and how she develops over the course of the series, so keep your eyes open for that. 

[IronBars he/him]

45 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Problems worsening is still change. 

And the development of new personalities is something she did before... When? Veil was an act previously. The fracturing into actual identities is something new. 

Like I've said multiple times, "character development" does not mean improvement. 

Problem worsening in my opinion isnt exactly change, its the same problem only deeper, so as i said before while its different its actually the same.

Your right about the fracturing of identies being new, i mis remembered that from WoR, when i thought it had started with veil.

With that i will revise my thought on her slightly

Character devolopment doesn't mean improvement again you are right, but as i said previoisly when she spoke the 4th ideal/truth to me, she at that point should of not been able to speak it, unless she embraced it and moved forward. Because it makes no sense to be able speak the truth to progress to the 4th level of knight radiant then regress.

From above i guess she devoloped since the personality slipping began in OB not WoR like i thought, 

I stand by the statement i made though that for the length of the book there wasnt enough devolopment.

39 minutes ago, Bort said:

On Teft:

I wonder if how you view the addiction is the reason you dismissed the foreshadowing, or were unimpressed by the result. If you view all drug addictions like those you see depicted most often, namely the worst ones, then yeah, I can see why you'd be surprised. But I've seen friends who have been addicted to "lesser" drugs, not heroine or cocaine, or any of the others that really do make it so you can't cope with reality without your fix, and they are quite capable of dealing with the world while sober, but as soon as they are able, they will indulge again. Without turning to crime to fund their habit. Being deprived of their source of addiction for a time, though, then being given plenty of money with which to indulge, and the freedom to do so, is it surprising Teft went off the deep end in Oathbringer? The addiction may not even be as bad as depicted in Oathbringer, for this reason.

Because of the effects we see firemoss have on different people in the books, ie with dalinar in the flashbacks he breaks a bit between his thumb and enters a euphoric state, with teft, he doesn't know where he is after taking it, wakes up drooling, completly discombobulated about where he is, and sells the clothes off his back to fund more hits from it, this is indictive of a hard drug and the effects of such, 

I know people who smoke weed/canabis and can go about there day like smoked nothing.

I know people who have taken heorin who cant function atal or only for short periods of time, and the signs we see in OB are more similiar to a hard drug like heorin then a soft drug like canabis.

Thats why i feel the foreshadowing we see of issues tefr has ie disappearing for a day, saying cant be trusted with money, is more along the lines of what you see from an alcoholic/gambing addict. Rather then a hard drug addict where the signs would be, in conjunctiin with the ones above they don't eat, they lose weight, they borrow money (spheres) they rob money (spheres), both of which teft could of done.

So my comment about it being out the blue was more so the "crack head" part then him having an addiction problem to something lesser. Because the foreshadowing didnt really align with the level of addiction we eventually see.

39 minutes ago, Bort said:

On Voidbringers:

In your initial post, you say the reason for the Recreance was because the Radiants discovered Humans were the Voidbringers. You made no mention that they could destroy the planet until it is brought up by someone else. The Radiants probably could have survived if it was just the bit about being Voidbringers, but it was the knowledge that they held the power to destroy the world (and that they believed they had already saved it), that persuaded them to sacrifice it. When held up to the standards given to them in conversation between Dalinar and the Stormfather, the Recreance becomes much less of a betrayal, and a lot more of a noble but woefully misunderstood act.

In my original post it was an over simplification on my part, but stems from the fact the stormfather assumes now that the current knights radiant know that they are infact the "voidbringers" they will follow what the previous knigbts radiant did and there will be another recreance so to speak.

This implied to me that the main reason for the recreance was in fact that revelation, and that the destroying of the planet was a secondary reason after they realised (more acurrately they believed wrongly) the desolations were at an end and if left unchecked they could potentially destroy roshar because they didnt trust themselves not to eventully abuse there powers.

39 minutes ago, Bort said:

On Shallan:

Your last reply to me about Shallan makes my point about you missing things clearly. You see it as an unsatisfying story about someone who isn't improving. I see it as someone who is badly trying to hide from their deepest secrets, fracturing herself because she is trying to hide from the Truth she swore as a Radiant, and literally coming face to face with the fact that she's not the people she is claiming to be. Pattern, along with Shallan's earlier mistakes in WoR, pretty much bullied her into speaking the 4th Truth before she was ready, I think, and this was the outcome. It's not character development as in she didn't get a massive power boost and everything was hunky-dory, but it was still the character developing in new and interesting ways. In my mind at least.

I kinda touched on this above, i think shallan hasnt improved most likely based on my own expectation and the frustration at how she had the chance to improve and didnt, and as i said above i will revise my thoughts on her at this point.

 

39 minutes ago, Bort said:

Also, I should have put this into my last post really, but sorry if I came across as conceited earlier. I didn't mean to, but was a bit irked by something you had said before that and let it slip through.

Its fine i think was being a little over sensitive with my comment.

Edited February 19, 2018 by IronBars

[RShara she/her]

5 minutes ago, IronBars said:

In my original post it was an over simplification on part, but stems from the fact the stormfather assumes now that the current knights radiant know that they are infact the "voidbringers" they will follow what the previous knigbts radiant did and there will be another recreance so to speak.

This implied to me that the main reason for the recreance was in fact that revelation, and that the destroying of the planet was a secondary reason after they realised (more acurrately they believed wrongly) the desolations were at an end and if left unchecked they could potentially destroy roshar because they didnt trust themselves not to eventully abuse there powers.

I don't remember if I pasted this at the beginning, so here it is again.  The Stormfather specifically says it is not because the humans were the voidbringers but because they well and truly feared they would destroy the planet.

 

Quote

In the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now?

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

“Odium claimed the same thing.”

He can see the future, though only cloudily. Regardless, I … understand now as I never did before. The ancient Radiants didn’t abandon their oaths out of pettiness. They tried to protect the world. I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths. But I also understand. You have cursed me, human, with this capacity.

 

[wotbibliophile]

I agree with almost everything in the original post. I like OB the least of the SA books. I like WOK most, then WOR, then OB. Like @IronBars I hope this trend does not continue. I would be very surprised and disappointed, if I ended up disliking SA so much that I dropped it.

 

A couple points I disagree with from the original post. I did like the Shadesmar section. I really like the spren more than almost all the other characters so I loved that they interacted with spren. I thought it was strange that Syl and Pattern were so absent from a section where they were fully manifested, but I still really liked it. I could have read a lot more about Shadesmar, Syl, and Pattern even if it did not move the story forward.

 

I liked every part with Kaladin in it. I could have read a whole book of just him and bridge 4. Other than maybe wanting more Kaladin, I thought he was just right in OB.

12 hours ago, IronBars said:

she comes across as very unintelligent even though she is meant to come across as very intelligent,

I agree. I think of Shallan as a dumb smart person or a smart dumb person. She is very intelligent in some ways and very stupid in other ways. Some of this is her upbringing. She is ignorant, which is not the same as stupid, but some of it is just that she is dumb.

 

I agree with @IronBars that Shallan has not progressed, she has regressed.

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

1. She is a completely unreliable narrator. She can say the sky is blue and it may be red in reality. Figuring out the truth from the lens of a person's perception is fun, but Shallan takes it too far. You never know if what you are reading from her is really happening or not.

2. She changes all the time. She was shy, idealistic, naive and scholastic in WoK. Which I found to be boring but alright. She was blooming, powerful, idealistic and scholastic in WoR. Which seemed to me intriguing and a natural progression. She was a mess who hated scholarship, responsibility and power. Which I found to be exasperating to the point I didn't even want to figure her out, considering those things had been the dreams and goals of her whole 17 years of life. 

It doesn't make me hate her, it just makes me indifferent to her, and slightly annoyed when she takes up book space that another character could be using. 

I agree with these two points. I am left very confused by Shallan. I do not trust Shallan at all.

[IronBars he/him]

Ok i read that differently to you it seems, 

This part: 

"In the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now?"

i take it to mean in the past when the KR found out they were the voidbringers honor soothed the revelation.

"But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar."

This time he didnt, and said how they would destroy the world, 

Hence why i said above:

This implied to me that the main reason for the recreance was in fact that revelation, and that the destroying of the planet was a secondary reason after they realised (more acurrately they believed wrongly) the desolations were at an end and if left unchecked they could potentially destroy roshar because they didnt trust themselves not to eventully abuse there powers.

normally honour was there to tell them it was ok, this time he told them how it wouldnt be ok, 

so i see the number 1 reason being the voidbringer fact and the number 2 reason being what there powers might do now the desolations are in there mind are over

Edited February 19, 2018 by IronBars

[IronBars he/him]

8 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

A couple points I disagree with from the original post. I did like the Shadesmar section. I really like the spren more than almost all the other characters so I loved that they interacted with spren. I thought it was strange that Syl and Pattern were so absent from a section where they were fully manifested, but I still really liked it. I could have read a lot more about Shadesmar, Syl, and Pattern even if it did not move the story forward.

Welcome to the thread.

Just to say i didnt dislike the shadesmar, section, just the premise of why they were there, and what it served in the book, if shallan had gone there while training her surges for example i would of been on board with it, but seemed to only serve getting kaladin away from dalinar for long enough rather then any other reason

Edited February 19, 2018 by IronBars