[OB] Parshendi/Listeners Based on Neanderthals

[Nerd3.14159265358979 he/him]

I’ve heard that every culture in Cosmere has basing in culture(s) on Earth, as it’s impossible to cognitize something completely new. I theorize that the base inspiration for the Parshendi/Listeners came from the Neanderthals. Here are the reasons I believe this:

• Neanderthals were less artistically skilled than us, which may have contributed to their demise. The Listeners were also less artistically skilled, as of Words of Radiance, which Eshonai worried would be key to their demise.

• Neanderthal language would have sounded like singing-the same holds true for the Parshendi/Listeners. (The Neanderthals because their faces were situated farther forward, the Parshendi/Listeners because they hear rhythms-but the principle holds true.)

• Both are stronger than humans.

• Both have about the same size of brains as humans, but their brains are composed/were developed differently from ours.

• Both had conflict with humans (I don’t believe humans and Neanderthals had all out war, but still conflict).

• Both were harmed greatly by humans-as a result of humans moving into their lands.

• Both the Neanderthals and the Listeners had less advanced/varied tools and weapons than humans.

(There are other similarities as well, but I am excluding those, as they may give spoilers for Oathbringer.)

Thoughts?

Edited February 4, 2018 by Nerd3.14159265358979

[Calderis he/him]

@Nerd3.14159265358979 I'll edit this with a response to your theory after I finish making dinner but

OB spoilers. 

Spoiler

Please edit out the word singers unless this is moved to the OB board. That name was not linked to them until the new book. 

 

[RShara she/her]

Mmmmm why is everything bolded?

I think you're underestimating the Singers.  They seem to have had reasonable technology and sophistication (for the time period) before the Desolations and the incident that deprived them of their minds.

They're only less artistically inclined because they lost the knowledge of artisanform (or whatever it'll be called) when they fled the domination of Odium.  Ditto with pretty much every skill that they're lacking right now.

There might be some influence from Homo Neanderthalis, but it's fairly slight, as the Singers are waaaaaaaaaaay different, other than being a sapient species co-habiting a planet.

[Nerd3.14159265358979 he/him]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Nerd3.14159265358979 I'll edit this with a response to your theory after I finish making dinner but

OB spoilers. 

  Hide contents

Please edit out the word singers unless this is moved to the OB board. That name was not linked to them until the new book. 

 

Sorry! This is done now. Thanks for the pointer!

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Mmmmm why is everything bolded?

I think you're underestimating the Singers.  They seem to have had reasonable technology and sophistication (for the time period) before the Desolations and the incident that deprived them of their minds.

They're only less artistically inclined because they lost the knowledge of artisanform (or whatever it'll be called) when they fled the domination of Odium.  Ditto with pretty much every skill that they're lacking right now.

There might be some influence from Homo Neanderthalis, but it's fairly slight, as the Singers are waaaaaaaaaaay different, other than being a sapient species co-habiting a planet.

I tried to unbold it, and it didn't work.

Yeah-on most of these points I was mostly referring to the Listeners as they exist in WoK and WoR, as these do parallel rather well. Also, the Neanderthals weren't way behind the humans in tools and weapons, they just had less variety. I guess I could've phrased that better.

[RShara she/her]

I can see it, though I don't know if it's more than an unconscious influence.  And yeah, I didn't mean that the Neanderthals were behind humans of the time. 

[Nymeros]

I don't think they were based on Neanderthals at all....

The similarities you mention seem superficial.

[Nerd3.14159265358979 he/him]

14 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I don't think they were based on Neanderthals at all....

The similarities you mention seem superficial.

That could be, but Sanderson has said himself that all his cultures are at least loosely based on Earth cultures, and this makes the most sense to me. Do you know of a culture that works better? If so, I'd love to hear about it!

[RShara she/her]

Any culture that subjugated and enslaved another one, basically.  It seems closer to Native Americans, honestly.  Europeans were granted lands, broke their treaties, invaded and took over the entire landmass and treated the remaining natives horribly.

Edited February 4, 2018 by RShara

[Nerd3.14159265358979 he/him]

You're right! that could work.

The only problem is that none of the more modern cultures (such as the Native Americans) aren't physically different (to a great extent)-Neanderthals are, and we know next to nothing about how their culture was, just some of the results. This also, fits with the Parshendi/Listeners (though, I admit, to a lesser extent). When I look at them both (Native Americans and Neanderthals) together, it looks like elements of inspiration could have come from both-combining elements of different cultures in fiction isn't unheard of-in fact, it's quite common. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Nerd3.14159265358979

[lu-tze]

I think the Parshendi are an exception, in that we will see certain parallels to human cultures, but nothing on which they are clearly based. This is because the Parshendi are unified by their ability to simultaneously attune the same rhythms. This should be (and is) at the core of their culture; yet is completely alien to human societies.

If they had architecture, for instance, it should be physically reminiscent of their rhythms. For instance, mausoleums adorned with undulations with heights corresponding to the rhythm of the Lost; battlements to Resolve; courts adorned with ornamentations which visually correspond to Peace, and so on. There may be hints to this, revealed way back in TWoK, as Kabsal points out, the ancient cities of Roshar all show a symmetry that arises from sound waves. And in OB, we learn that humans were not the original inhabitants of Roshar, and so those ancient cities would have been built by the Parshendi.

So the Parshendi culture, as we see it (and have ancient Parshendi culture revealed to us) would play out like a thought experiment: how would the constant thrumming of a handful of fundamental rhythms impact culture and society. I don't think we'll be able to highlight a major human culture as a prototype.

This is largely a moot point moving forward in SA, as the Parshendi are all dead, and the Parshmen will be largely dominated by the Fused, focusing on war production. 

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, ale said:

This is largely a moot point moving forward in SA, as the Parshendi are all dead, and the Parshmen will be largely dominated by the Fused, focusing on war production. 

Considering the listeners that escaped Narak, and Venli's last interaction sharing the listener history with the Parsh.... I doubt the culture is done. 

[Nerd3.14159265358979 he/him]

5 hours ago, lu-tze said:

I think the Parshendi are an exception, in that we will see certain parallels to human cultures, but nothing on which they are clearly based. This is because the Parshendi are unified by their ability to simultaneously attune the same rhythms. This should be (and is) at the core of their culture; yet is completely alien to human societies.

I think that is true to an extent, but (using the example Sanderson used-I can't remember exactly where) a unicorn is a compilation of things we know-we know about horses, and we know about horns, so we can imagine a unicorn, even though we've never seen it. In a related vein, however, we can't cognitize something completely new-we can combine elements, and we have the capacity to make our combinations incredible complex, which I believe is what Sanderson is doing with the Parshendi/Listeners, or whatever you call them in various sections of the book. So, I believe that it is largely correct to say that they are not based on the Neanderthals-it's much more complex than that. It isn't necessarily correct, however-I still think the Neanderthals were part of the basis of the Parshendi/Listeners. It is definitely more complex than I originally stated however-that much is definitely true. For example, Native American culture likely had a large impact, as @RShara said, and music definitely had an influence, as you said (though, if you check my title explanation, the Neanderthals likely spoke to the rhythm of music as well). The music basis definitely changed the cultures, but that doesn't mean the culture wasn't a basis. For example, Sanderson has stated that the Alethi culture is based on Korean culture, but this doesn't mean that the two are the same. I think that the Parshendi/Listener culture just happens to be one of the most complex cultures in his books (if not the most) as well as the most different from ours, which means that the basis for the culture will also be incredibly complex. I find it all to be quite beautiful.