Leyrann Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 (NOTE: spoilers for the end of Wheel of Time are included, I would advice against reading this post/thread if you haven't finished WoT) A while ago, we got some info in an interview from Brandon, followed by a WoB: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900003841/qanda-brandon-sanderson-on-the-importance-of-fiction-and-how-writing-influences-his-lds-faith.html Quote Nathaniel Sager: What is the best cryptic statement you can come up with that will drive all your fans mad waiting to see what it means? BS: Ooooh, ooooh. Best cryptic statement, huh? Let me see … That's a hard one because I have to really be careful what I say, because if I give too much away, the fans are really good at picking out things. I'm going to throw them a curveball, and it's going to be a Wheel of Time one. There are things about The Wheel of Time ending … there are secrets that fans have not yet discovered and which nobody has asked me about yet. Major things. Major, kind of world-shaking, Wheel of Time things that are foreshadowed in the last books that no one has yet figured out or asked me about. So, that'll drive them a little crazy. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8167 Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] So, I'm about to read the last four books of Wheel of Time, and I know in your interview with Deseret News is that no one has asked you about something big, world-shattering. What should I be thinking of while I read these books? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I can't give you even a clue, because I've been sworn to secrecy by team Jordan. I made it up, but they said "We can't tell people this." So, this is something I added to the books, it's not something that was in the notes. So there, you learned something about it. Before I was aware of this WoB, I had noticed some peculiar similarities between Oathbringer and the ending of A Memory of Light. Firstly, in the end of Part I of Oathbringer, when Shallan fights and defeats Re-Shephir, she presumably does this in the Spiritual Realm, which is similar in it's description to where Rand fights the battle of will with the Dark One in A Memory of Light. This, however, is less of a similarity than the one Rand shares with Dalinar at the end of Oathbringer: Both are battling a vastly more powerful force of evil, battered and broken, about to give in, as someone who is dear to them but dead (Egwene and Evi respectively) encourage them, strengthening them at the vital moment, after which they stand up to fight once again. Additionally, both are subsequently enveloped in a column of light. On top of that, in my current reread of The Way of Kings, I noticed something else. Rand always feels the burden of those he killed or otherwise failed, as a list of names he repeats to himself. In the Stormlight Archive, Kaladin does exactly the same, and if it were not enough, their fathers, though very different, are both good men trying to support their sons and teach them to deal with the burden, as Tam indeed managed to do. I think this parallel between Rand and Kaladin may be what Brandon Sanderson has been talking about. I do realize that the interview and the WoB do not hint at a relation between Oathbringer and Stormlight Archive, but on the other hand I do not see how there would be a point of foreshadowing in Wheel of Time that is big, but has not been noticed by other people, if it does not related to something outside of Wheel of Time. (oh, and long time WoT fans will probably remember the last "Big Unnoticed Thing" in the Wheel of Time, which was considered very disappointing (for those who don't know, no one had figured out that Mat's ashandarei was a way out of Finnland)) In short, I think Brandon has foreshadowed, in Wheel of Time, that Kaladin will, for a long time, remain unable to leave his failures behind (or supposed failures, as he typically does all he can to protect his men), also rendering him unable to say the Fourth Ideal, whatever it may be exactly, until he has a talk with Lirin which allows him to proceed. Of course, knowing Brandon, it might not actually be such a long time and it might happen in book 4 already, right in time for Kaladin to say the Fifth Ideal in book 5 before he goes to Braize to stop the Desolation for the duration of the 15 year gap.
TequilaJack Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) I need to go back and read Memory of Light again to refresh. Timeline: Sanderson finished Gathering Storm in 2009. He started on Way of Kings all the back to late 90s iirc. I doubt Kaladin was designed based on Rand. Theme: Common man shouldering burdens and becoming a hero is not really a novel concept in fantasy. Been done and dusted numerous times before. Also no author wants their protagonist to be a extract from some other author's hero. So I doubt the Kaladin/Rand similarities are anything more than what they appear to be. ........................... Reference to 'pattern': WoT has numerous reference to Pattern and coincidentally is also the name of Shallan's spren.....which is a cryptic again coincidentally Sanderson's answer to the most cryptic statement question. When Mat and Perrin lost their visions at end of the book, Rand kinda became super-powerful with him being able to manipulate pattern without needing to channel (lighting tabac scene). Probably he has ascended (like Kelsier, Lord Ruler, and Dalinar) Survival Shard: Which iirc is still unknown. and rand was fighting for humanity's survival against Evil. Maybe the reference is presence of shard (or maybe it's splintered (yet retaining power) into Saidin, Saidar and True Source). Evil being Odium by implication, who tried to conquer Survival and failed. Edited January 4, 2018 by TequilaJack
Leyrann Posted January 4, 2018 Author Posted January 4, 2018 45 minutes ago, TequilaJack said: Timeline: Sanderson finished Gathering Storm in 2009. He started on Way of Kings all the back to late 90s iirc. I doubt Kaladin was designed based on Rand. It is probably safe to assume that Sanderson has gone through a lot of iteration on both Wheel of Time and Way of Kings, however. We know he had to write almost all of the last three books of WoT by himself. While looking for the WoB in above post I actually came across a post where he explained that he got 200 pages of "notes", which existed half of worldbuilding stuff, and half of the rest was about Egwene, while the last 50 pages were divided over other characters. Perrin, as example, had only a single line. He's basically crafted the aMoL storyline by himself. As for Way of Kings, we know, for example, that the Shattered Plains weren't in there until much later, and additionally we know that he gave Kaladin his depression much later on because he felt Kaladin was a too-perfect hero, while these parallels would be very much related to his depression. 49 minutes ago, TequilaJack said: Theme: Common man shouldering burdens and becoming a hero is not really a novel concept in fantasy. Been done and dusted numerous times before. Also no author wants their protagonist to be a extract from some other author's hero. So I doubt the Kaladin/Rand similarities are anything more than what they appear to be Just because characteres are differen't doesn't mean they can't have similarities, though. Kaladin and Rand can very well be foils to one another in this. 50 minutes ago, TequilaJack said: Reference to 'pattern': WoT has numerous reference to Pattern and coincidentally is also the name of Shallan's spren.....which is a cryptic again coincidentally Sanderson's answer to the most cryptic statement question. When Mat and Perrin lost their visions at end of the book, Rand kinda became super-powerful with him being able to manipulate pattern without needing to channel (lighting tabac scene). Probably he has ascended (like Kelsier, Lord Ruler, and Dalinar) Survival Shard: Which iirc is still unknown. and rand was fighting for humanity's survival against Evil. Maybe the reference is presence of shard (or maybe it's splintered (yet retaining power) into Saidin, Saidar and True Source). Evil being Odium by implication, who tried to conquer Survival and failed. I'll admit that I immediately wanted to move towards "Creator and Dark One are shards" as well when I read that quote, but the problem is that I distinctly remember from my time in the Wheel of Time community (I think even before the release of aMoL) Brandon had already confirmed that he would not make Wheel of Time part of the cosmere, meaning that there will not be actual crossovers of any kind. If whatever Brandon was referencing in the interview is related to his own works as well it has to be in parallels or something like that. (apart from this I could probably come up with a hundred reasons why Wheel of Time doesn't fit cosmere, but why bother...)
Drag0nR3born Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, TequilaJack said: Timeline: Sanderson finished Gathering Storm in 2009. He started on Way of Kings all the back to late 90s iirc. I doubt Kaladin was designed based on Rand. . One point I would make is that Sanderson was a big fan of the WoT before writing it obviously, so it stands to reason that it would have influenced by WoT. I have noticed a number of parallels between the WoT and SA but most of them pop up as I am reading and I think "hey, I wonder if he was inspired to do that from the WoT" but then I don't remember them later. My next reread I need to make a full list as I am reading and then post all similarities I notice. I have read the WoT twice have no clue what the big "kind of world-shaking" information could be. I have wondered if Sanderson placed a worldhopper on RandLand or something. Just like just a small scene where someone drinks some metals hinting at Allomancy or something. Not meaning it is part of the cosmere but just kinda gentle nod to his own books. I doubt it but still....guess it is time for a reread. Edited January 4, 2018 by Drag0nR3born
TequilaJack Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Leyrann said: Just because characteres are differen't doesn't mean they can't have similarities, though. Kaladin and Rand can very well be foils to one another in this. I'll admit that I immediately wanted to move towards "Creator and Dark One are shards" as well when I read that quote, but the problem is that I distinctly remember from my time in the Wheel of Time community (I think even before the release of aMoL) Brandon had already confirmed that he would not make Wheel of Time part of the cosmere, meaning that there will not be actual crossovers of any kind. If whatever Brandon was referencing in the interview is related to his own works as well it has to be in parallels or something like that. (apart from this I could probably come up with a hundred reasons why Wheel of Time doesn't fit cosmere, but why bother...) 1 hour ago, Drag0nR3born said: One point I would make is that Sanderson was a big fan of the WoT before writing it obviously, so it stands to reason that it would have influenced by WoT. I have noticed a number of parallels between the WoT and SA but most of them pop up as I am reading and I think "hey, I wonder if he was inspired to do that from the WoT" but then I don't remember them later. My next reread I need to make a full list as I am reading and then post all similarities I notice. I have read the WoT twice have no clue what the big "kind of world-shaking" information could be. I have wondered if Sanderson placed a worldhopper on RandLand or something. Just like just a small scene where someone drinks some metals hinting at Allomancy or something. Not meaning it is part of the cosmere but just kinda gentle nod to his own books. I doubt it but still....guess it is time for a reread. My point too. I don't think it would something as material as rand/Kaladin similarity. It would be a easter egg and my fist thought was worldhopper visit. I need to go back and read Memory of Light again. 1
StormingTexan he/him Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 Well dang now I want to know what the major word-shaking foreshadowing was we all missed in the ending of WoT..
Weltall Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 I'm fairly sure that whatever we're missing is something entirely related to WoT, some development at the end of the series that for whatever reason hasn't stood out to anyone yet, or if it has it's not been to someone who's had the opportunity to ask Brandon about it. So, not Nakomi, not the pipe, nothing related to the outrigger novels and probably nothing related to the future Aviendha saw in the ter'angreal since people have asked about that. 9 hours ago, Leyrann said: I'll admit that I immediately wanted to move towards "Creator and Dark One are shards" as well when I read that quote, but the problem is that I distinctly remember from my time in the Wheel of Time community (I think even before the release of aMoL) Brandon had already confirmed that he would not make Wheel of Time part of the cosmere, meaning that there will not be actual crossovers of any kind. If whatever Brandon was referencing in the interview is related to his own works as well it has to be in parallels or something like that. Yeah, here's one quote I found and I'm certain there are more. Quote Chris Coen (23 January 2013) I assume the answer is no, but in your interconnected universe, does the Wheel of Time have a place? Brandon Sanderson (23 January 2013) No. I felt it would be arrogant to do something like that. So yeah, I doubt there's anything like a cute nod to allomancy hidden in there. In terms of subtle 'Brandonisms' I feel like Androl is the sort of thing we should be looking for, a character who finds out creative ways to use one particular talent really well, in ways that are internally consistent but which other characters (and perhaps the reader) didn't think about until we saw the author do it, then we all had a good laugh at the cleverness. But I'm fairly sure that's not the sort of thing Brandon is talking about.
Bort he/him Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) The Trailsman's Flute Hoid gives Kaladin, perhaps? I forget, what happens to Rand's flute in WoT? Edited January 5, 2018 by Bort
Weltall Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 Given that Brandon was quite emphatic that he's not bringing WoT and Cosmere into the same universe, the odds that he would pick that kind of thing as a secret is so remote as to be pretty much impossible. Plus, we have a far better explanation for that flute that requires no violation of Brandon's assertion: The flute that Hoid gives Kaladin might have originally belonged to Rashek Also, despite Stormlight Archive throwing all sorts of Cosmere Crisis Crossover things at us, Brandon has said on multiple occasions that he wants to write the books so they can be understood as an entirely standalone work. He's aware that some of his readers are particularly obsessive and dive into the little details and connections like crazy but he doesn't write the books with us in mind. So when he says there are secrets in the ending of WoT that were foreshadowed in the last few books that people haven't yet picked up on, he's got to be talking about something internal to WoT, even if he wasn't quite clear that it should be taken as something completely separate from everything else he's done. With that in mind, it's only more apparent that whatever he's talking about, it's not some sort of hidden crossover. Since I mentioned it earlier, the glass pillar ter'angreal in Rhuidean could be related to these secrets in some way. People have asked Brandon about the future that Aviendha saw but to my knowledge nobody has asked him specifically about the device or the impression that Aviendha received when she tried to use her 'identify ter'angreal function' Talent on it, that the device might have been alive in some way. On his own Brandon mentioned that it was "the most audacious thing I believe I pitched at Team Jordan" so it wasn't part of Robert Jordan's notes and we know that whatever Brandon had in mind for mind-blowing secrets was something he came up with. I can't think of anything specific in the ending that this might relate to offhand but it does at least meet the limited critera we have. Other than that, I can't think of anything good offhand but I haven't reread WoT in quite a while.
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