[OB] Kaladin... Man that dude is awesome...

[Korbin]

Hey guys! I just thought I would make a topic commemorated to Kaladin's total awesomeness.

So I'm curious. What did you guys think of Kaladin in this book? What were his highs? Lows? How did he change? And what did you hope would happen that didn't?

And finally a lit meme...

Edited December 16, 2017 by Korbin
Typo...

[Kered]

Mandatory upvote for cosmere meme. 

And I think OB holds the 2 best Kaladin scenes so far, as well as some other really good smaller scenes. Which is saying something because Kaladin's confrontation with Moash at the end of WoR is one of my favorite book scenes period.  

• The scene with Kaladin attempting to stop his friends among the Singers and Wall Guard from killing each other was one of the best executed emotional scenes I've ever read. Elhokar being brutally killed by Moash and the Moash's salute to Kaladin was just absolutely gut wrenching. 
• Kaladin realizing that sometimes it's okay to be the one being saved and protected and not swearing the 4th Ideal was one of the best parts of the books climax. On top of that, the Kaladin and Amaram fight was everything I hoped for. 
• Kaladin's return to Hearthstone was awesome. Him taking his responsibility as KR in front of his people as well as his refrain from doing to much damage to Roshon was a really good piece of his character development. From him being terrified of telling any lighteye's about his powers in WoR, to him taking responsibility for his position and being honorable in OB. 
• Pretty much every fight scene of Kaladin's was epic. 
• His actions in Shadesmar and his recovery from the Battle of Kholinar was nice to read compared to the other story lines going on during the Shadesmar arc. 

 

My only complaint is that he was the same amount of depressing and self-deprecating as he was in WoR and WoK. But I feel he had better reasons to be those things in previous books compared to this one. I know he's grown a lot in other areas, but it just seems that even the smallest of triggers leads to a Kaladin dark mood in this book. That's only a small thing though, and next to Szeth and Dalinar, I think his POV's in OB are my favorite. 

[Korbin]

4 minutes ago, Kered said:

The scene with Kaladin attempting to stop his friends among the Singers and Wall Guard from killing each other was one of the best executed emotional scenes I've ever read. Elhokar being brutally killed by Moash and the Moash's salute to Kaladin was just absolutely gut wrenching. 

Yeah this for me was incredibly sad and gut wrenching. To see Kaladin torn in so many ways like that. It broke my heart. But I feel like it was important to his charachter development. It really shows that he can't save everyone. It was shoved down his throat in a way he couldn't forget or move on from. It was for me one of the biggest scenes for him. I think that this scene will have emotional repercussions for him in the future. I'm must not sure for or for bad.

[Kered]

One of those repercussions is going to be his probable confrontation with Moash. The tension was already high enough before the OB scene. I really hope its in book 4. 

[Korbin]

Yes I know we are all hoping for an epic Kaladin vr Moash... I'm not sure whether I want Kaladin to kill Moash or for Moash to switch back to his sides. What I think would really make it intense is if Moash killed Kal's parents... That would be heart wrenching.

[Awesomness]

1 hour ago, Kered said:

My only complaint is that he was the same amount of depressing and self-deprecating as he was in WoR and WoK.

I think he had definitely less really low moments...

I love Kaladin and loved his arc in OB. I think it was a smart choice to have him fail to say the words but learn to trust his friends in times of need.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Awesomness

[Korbin]

I think this book wasn't a Kaladin book. We saw a lot of him not being the lead power savior guy. He did all of that during the last two. We got to see him constantly have to rely on other people. Even his big hero moment where he was fighting Amaram and the fused Rock ended up killing Amaram. But I really apreciated that. I was kind of starting to feel like Kaladin was turning into super man and when all was getting dark KALADIN WOULD SWOOP IN! (Which I love but it was happening to much) I think this book was a very humanizing book for Kaladin. We see that he isn't the major power who saved the day. We got to see him as a part or piece in a group.

[Nymeros]

Yeah Kaladin was pretty perfectly used. He got to be his usual awesome self and progress as a character while not overshadowing anyone else or stealing any spotlight.

I know he is always jokingly called brooding and a humorless workaholic but this book finally provided a perfect summation Kaladin's presence:

I gave you that granite will, that warrior's poise!

 

Now that's an awesome description of Kaladin. He always seems so competent and professional when he's on the job.

And of course I have to include Kaladins flawless reply:

Ten spears go to battle," he whispered, "and nine shatter. Did the war forge the one that remained? No, Amaran. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.

 

I dislike his handling of Moash and Sandersons handling of Kaladins treason. It's odd cowardice from Kaladin and i hate that he will experience no consequences for his actions in WoR...

Edited December 17, 2017 by Nymeros

[Starla]

I thought Kaladin made great progress in this book in several key areas where he struggled in the first two books:

He has embraced his status as a Knight Radiant and is no longer hiding. When he visited Hearthstone and the other towns in northern Alethkar, he revealed himself to his family and the townsfolk, and gave advice on how to prepare for what is to come. He spent time training his squires and recruiting new squires, he participated in KR meetings when he was in Urithiru, and he devoted himself fully to protecting Dalinar when he learned he was in trouble.

His distrust and hatred of lighteyes has been greatly reduced. He befriended a group of lighteyed guards in Kholinar and came to understand the power dynamics between the varying dahn levels. He mourned these same lighteyed guards when they died, alongside members of his old squad, fellow slaves, and Bridge Four members he’s lost. He doe not flinch when referred to as “Brightlord” and he accepts the land Elhokar gave him. 

He no longer mentally dwells on intense feelings of hatred toward Amaram and Roshone, and deals with them both in a straightforward manner. He punches Roshone to get it out of his system, then talks to him about what needs to be done to help the people of Hearthstone. We do not see him ruminate on his hatred Amaram at all through the book. He doesn’t seem perturbed by the fact that Amaram Highprince of the Sadeas princedom. When he finally confronts Amaram in battle, he faces him head on in the fight, and in their moral discussion during the fighting. 

His mood is very stable during the first three parts of the book, and he even smiled some. When he begins to fall into a depressive episode in Part 4 after losing Elhokar, he reflects on his dark mood and considers why it was happening and how to stop it. There is a scene in Chapter 95 where he has attracts anger spren in Shadesmar, and he spends a fair amount of time analyzing his emotions. He says to the group "My emotions are irrational. I’ll try to contain them," and the anger spren move on. He realizes he is being grumpy towards Adolin and forces himself to stop, acknowledging that Adolin helped him. He sees himself sinking into a negative thought pattern, and chooses to “fight it” (his words) by turning his attention to the task at hand. This is the first time we have seen him actively work to pull himself out of a funk instead of succumbing to it. He spends the rest of the Shadesmar trip focusing on getting to Dalinar, or getting Syl out of prison, rather than brooding and dwelling on negativity.

All of these areas show psychological growth. He may not have progressed in his ideals or developed new super-awesome surgebinding abilities or gained shardplate, but I think the progress in his mental health will contribute to his progression as a radiant in the next book.

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, Starla said:

he even smiled some

I like how this is actually worth mentioning :-D

 

[Oberyn]

15 hours ago, Korbin said:

I think this book wasn't a Kaladin book. We saw a lot of him not being the lead power savior guy. He did all of that during the last two. We got to see him constantly have to rely on other people. Even his big hero moment where he was fighting Amaram and the fused Rock ended up killing Amaram. 

I think that he was actually a savior in part one, it's just that he was a low-key one. His scene announcing that the KR returned in hearthstone was amazing in that it gave people hope. It also reinforced his sense of responsability in being part of the Knights, which, even if he doesn't need, has a purpose within his character. The scene where he saved the humans from the highstorm was also a scene with the same vibe.

Him being a low-key hero also made a counterpoint with him not being the main char of the book, because people don't get to be THE man all the time and they can still contribute if they are willing, at least I saw it that way, it's up to Kal too see it also.

Besides that, I love the way he puts himself in Syl's shoes when she was a prisioner in Shadesmar. Loved that he couldn't speak the 4th oath. He grew immensily on me because I could feel the respect that a crew such as bridge 4 has for him from their perspective. I felt him grumble less about the lighteyes and be an inspiration to Elhokar. I feel Kal's book was a lot more touching because of his minor scenes, and he also gets to kick chull once or twice.

[straits]

7 hours ago, Starla said:

His distrust and hatred of lighteyes has been greatly reduced. He befriended a group of lighteyed guards in Kholinar and came to understand the power dynamics between the varying dahn levels. He mourned these same lighteyed guards when they died, alongside members of his old squad, fellow slaves, and Bridge Four members he’s lost. He doe not flinch when referred to as “Brightlord” and he accepts the land Elhokar gave him. 

I actually hope he continues to provide social commentary on lighteyes in Alethi society and that he doesn't lose distrust and dislike of the caste system. Kaladin should be wary of being allowed to "succeed" as a Brightlord within this society, because the title itself holds the connotations of a slavemaster. 

Moash was briefly a good vehicle for this analysis. He saw it in the prison camps of the Parshendi - how lighteyes reinforce the racist Alethi status quo, with lighteyes taking an excess of food and resources while an old darkeyed woman (and child?) starves outside of their quarters. I think Sanderson put that scene in for a reason.

What saddens me is that the way Moash has been radicalized against the Alethi elite has been tainted by his own nihilism. I hope that the validity of Moash's grievances against the Alethi class system does not get lost in his transformation into a villain.

 

16 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I dislike his handling of Moash and Sandersons handling of Kaladins treason. It's odd cowardice from Kaladin and i hate that he will experience no consequences for his actions in WoR...

I don't fully understand this claim of treason, but mostly because I don't classify an attack on the ruling elite lighteyes (the king), by disenfranchised darkeyes, as treason. It may not be entirely well-timed given the looming world war, but absolutely understandable in its motivations.

[Awesomness]

2 hours ago, straits said:

I don't fully understand this claim of treason, but mostly because I don't classify an attack on the ruling elite lighteyes (the king), by disenfranchised darkeyes, as treason. It may not be entirely well-timed given the looming world war, but absolutely understandable in its motivations.

Fron Moash perspective, Kaladin betrayed Moash and chose to protect a murderous lighteyes, after he said he would give him an opening to kill the king.

I wonder how nobody raised questions to the fact that bridge 4 most trusted official, the one who was carrying a full set of shard, disappeared the night of Elokhar`s attempted murder...

[straits]

1 minute ago, Awesomness said:

I wonder how nobody raised questions to the fact that bridge 4 most trusted official, the one who was carrying a full set of shard, disappeared the night of Elokhar`s attempted murder...

That doesn't actually surprise me very much, given that the newly minted bridgeman units don't really have oversight from anyone other than Kaladin (who is probably the only "visible" person to the lighteyes). 

I don't really remember where Moash got the shards from though... Kaladin handed those to him after he got them as a reward, right?

[Awesomness]

Just now, straits said:

That doesn't actually surprise me very much, given that the newly minted bridgeman units don't really have oversight from anyone other than Kaladin (who is probably the only "visible" person to the lighteyes). 

I don't really remember where Moash got the shards from though... Kaladin handed those to him after he got them as a reward, right?

Yes, Kal gave them to him.

You are right, but a full set of shards is a whole fortune, Moash became a lighteyes with lands when he acquired them. People keep track and records of the shards, so they should at least wonder...

[Korbin]

6 hours ago, Oberyn said:

I think that he was actually a savior in part one, it's just that he was a low-key one. His scene announcing that the KR returned in hearthstone was amazing in that it gave people hope. It also reinforced his sense of responsability in being part of the Knights, which, even if he doesn't need, has a purpose within his character. The scene where he saved the humans from the highstorm was also a scene with the same vibe.

Part one actually really made me nervous. Because to me Kaladin had started to become superman near the ends of WoR. (By that I mean when everything was bad he would swoop in and save the day) And the book literally started with Kal flying in and saving the day. I didn't want to see him become some kind of gooey hero. I was glad that we got to see him humanized like he was in the latter parts.

[Xarallei]

This was a Dalinar book so I was expecting strong focus on Dalinar and less on Kaladin, but...idk I think there definitely could have been more development of Kal. Felt Shallan got more "air-time" than Kaladin. Maybe they could have cut out some of the minor character view points and put more Kal in. Hopefully, the next book has more Kaladin (yes, I know it's someone else's flashback book but still...). I did like what we did see of him though. I notice some people (not on here I don't think) feel that there was a regression of his character, but I don't really feel that at all. Kal has always been plagued by his "must save everyone" mentality and it definitely held him back from saying the next Ideal. Having him just suddenly "get over" that problem would have felt very wrong. I look forward to seeing him develop more and eventually confront this problem in the next book. 

Funnily enough, I really disliked Kal when I first read WoK. And I didn't like him for some of WoR. But, well the guy eventually won me over and is now my favorite character. Guess that's why I wish there was more Kal in Oathbringer.  What is interesting is that now when I re-read WoK I enjoy it much more and don't hate Kal anymore. 

[digitalbusker]

3 hours ago, straits said:

don't fully understand this claim of treason, but mostly because I don't classify an attack on the ruling elite lighteyes (the king), by disenfranchised darkeyes, as treason

Aiding an attempt by agents of a foreign power to assassinate your Head of State ("not immediately reporting what you know" counts as aid) is treason, full stop.

You may feel the government that you're betraying is not legitimate (and I agree with you in the case of Alethkar), and that that justifies committing treason against it. You might even be right.

Doesn't make it not treason, though.

(Yes, I think the members of the Continental Congress were guilty of treason against England. I'm fine with it, but let's call a traitor a traitor.)

((The fact that Kaladin changed his mind and foiled the assassination plot would play well in a trial, and might keep him from being convicted, but the charge is treason.))

[DocHoliday]

Shardbearers are above the law. You either execute them or let them go.

And Kal was the defending Elhokar in the end.

Edited December 18, 2017 by DocHoliday

[RandyD]

The best way to make Kaladin way more awesome is to have a really epic scene where he brutally murders Moash. I need this scene in my life. But I suspect Kaladin will forgive Moash and there will be some form of redemption arc because I never get my way.

[straits]

10 hours ago, Ookla the Busker said:

Aiding an attempt by agents of a foreign power to assassinate your Head of State ("not immediately reporting what you know" counts as aid) is treason, full stop.

You may feel the government that you're betraying is not legitimate (and I agree with you in the case of Alethkar), and that that justifies committing treason against it. You might even be right.

Doesn't make it not treason, though.

(Yes, I think the members of the Continental Congress were guilty of treason against England. I'm fine with it, but let's call a traitor a traitor.)

((The fact that Kaladin changed his mind and foiled the assassination plot would play well in a trial, and might keep him from being convicted, but the charge is treason.))

Yes, you can say it is treason as dictated by the law.

However, the same constitution(s) that define this treason, also allow lighteyes to own darkeyes as slaves and hold them several social classes below them.

In that sense I argue that the law is immoral, and breaking it is righteous - and it is even morally imperative to do so. The "rule of law" is less a moral compass and more a system designed to maintain the status quo, no matter how bad the status quo may be.

As an aside - this is why despite his many failings, I don't hold Moash's murder of Elhokar as a crime worth lamenting. He did many things wrong, and killing a king is nowhere near the worst.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, straits said:

In that sense I argue that the law is immoral, and breaking it is righteous - and it is even morally imperative to do so. The "rule of law" is less a moral compass and more a system designed to maintain the status quo, no matter how bad the status quo may be.

As an aside - this is why despite his many failings, I don't hold Moash's murder of Elhokar as a crime worth lamenting. He did many things wrong, and killing a king is nowhere near the worst.

I have to agree here.

Especially regarding Moash. While I hate Moash, because I really started to like Elhokar, his crime wasn't morally wrong. He killed an oppressive ruler - on my moral compass, that was right. In the eyes of the law in Alethkar, it wasn't. But the law is immoral, so breaking it is actually the morally right thing to do. Just because the law is the law, doesn't make it always right.

Edited December 18, 2017 by SLNC

[Awesomness]

1 hour ago, straits said:

As an aside - this is why despite his many failings, I don't hold Moash's murder of Elhokar as a crime worth lamenting. He did many things wrong, and killing a king is nowhere near the worst.

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Especially regarding Moash. While I hate Moash, because I really started to like Elhokar, his crime wasn't morally wrong. He killed an oppressive ruler - on my moral compass, that was right. In the eyes of the law in Alethkar, it wasn't. But the law is immoral, so breaking it is actually the morally right thing to do. Just because the law is the law, doesn't make it always right.

And, Moash killed Elokhar on a battlefield, so it wasn't a crime.

[digitalbusker]

45 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

 

And, Moash killed Elokhar on a battlefield, so it wasn't a crime.

Being on the battlefield on the opposing side was a crime, though.

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I have to agree here.

Especially regarding Moash. While I hate Moash, because I really started to like Elhokar, his crime wasn't morally wrong. He killed an oppressive ruler - on my moral compass, that was right. In the eyes of the law in Alethkar, it wasn't. But the law is immoral, so breaking it is actually the morally right thing to do. Just because the law is the law, doesn't make it always right.

I'm not arguing that something that is criminal is necessarily wrong. I'm arguing that just because you agree with something doesn't make it not a crime, nor change the name of that crime.

As for whether Moash was morally right to take up arms against Elhokar and kill him at the palace, I think you have to look at it in context. Yes, the Alethi system condones chattel slavery (dressed up as indentured servitude in the case of humans, but permanent for parshmen), denies political agency to the vast majority of its people, and treats political power as flowing from a combination of eye color and strength of arms. Would Moash be justified in trying to overthrow that system to institute something better? Absolutely.

But that's not what he's doing.

The house is on fire. Billy is in charge the chore wheel and has been giving the easy chores to his buddies and the worst chores to people he doesn't like. The house is still on fire. Timmy is mad at Billy about the chore wheel, and brings it up all the time. Still on fire. Some of Billy's friends had to ask Timmy to step outside the still burning house. Timmy meets some dudes on the lawn with gas cans and sparklers, strikes up a friendship over mutual disdain for Billy, and helps them break into the house, where they start setting interior fires. Timmy pays no mind because he's punching Billy out and ripping up the chore wheel.

Vis a vis the chore wheel, Timmy is clearly in the right. But in context it's hard to imagine how his actions are going to result in a better system.

[straits]

50 minutes ago, Ookla the Busker said:

As for whether Moash was morally right to take up arms against Elhokar and kill him at the palace, I think you have to look at it in context. Yes, the Alethi system condones chattel slavery (dressed up as indentured servitude in the case of humans, but permanent for parshmen), denies political agency to the vast majority of its people, and treats political power as flowing from a combination of eye color and strength of arms. Would Moash be justified in trying to overthrow that system to institute something better? Absolutely.

But that's not what he's doing.

The tools that you use to break a system (violent revolution) and the tools that you use to build a state (economics, diplomacy, etc) are not necessarily facilitated by the same parties. Nor is the slave required to plan for a positive, organized and egalitarian society after the revolution - the slave does not have the tools nor the network to do so, and is only interested in breaking the chains and killing the masters.

And if breaking the chains happens to be inconvenient for the masters at that second, so what? Perhaps the master should have thought about liberating the slave before the house was lit on fire. You can hardly start attacking the elites during peacetime and economic prosperity. That's when they're strongest.

Your anecdote is somewhat consequentialist, which I don't fully oppose. Maybe the anarchy that comes after the revolution will be overall worse for everyone. But this is the price of discontent in a racist and classist society. And the moral failing is not that of the slave, but of the master.

As a side point: Kaladin post-duel is a prime example of why peacefully airing your grievances to the elites does not work. He won the favour of the lighteyes crowd, and held the confidence of Dalinar after putting his life on the line for his highborn sons. When he verbally and publicly accused Amaram of the wrongs he committed, he was thrown in prison despite all of his achievements and it took all of Dalinar's clout not to have him executed for daring to step up to the supremacist masters.