[OB] Gavinor and the Death Rattles

[Skryter he/him]

In Chapter 84 (pp. 812-813 ) Kaladin "saves" Elohkar's son Gavinor as he is being molested by a group of Voidspren. Specifically, Syll transforms into a dagger which Kaladin uses to kill one of the Spren in the physical realm. While this act in of itself is interesting, I noticed during a re-read that this aligns somewhat with the Chapter 57 Death Rattle in Way of Kings.

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.” The connection is seemingly obvious; Gavinor is an infant and Kaladin is wielding a knife. Could this event be foreshadowing Gavinor's role as being an agent of/corrupted by Odium in the second pentalogy or is it just another one of Sanderson's red herrings?

 

 

[Leyrann]

Kaladin doesn't "know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip", though.

[digitalbusker he/him]

Also, and this is more subject to poetic license, Gavinor is probably too old to be suckling.

[Skryter he/him]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Leyspren said:

Kaladin doesn't "know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip", though.

 

Just now, Ookla the Busker said:

Also, and this is more subject to poetic license, Gavinor is probably too old to be suckling.

Both of your points are spot on and I personally think that these two events aren't one and the same. However, it would be remiss to discount the similarities between the two, no? We should also consider that Odiums precognition has blind spots/has been wrong in the past, and that could shape the event itself. There's also the possibility that Sanderson changed how that event played out post WOK. But you're both probably right that they aren't specifically related.

[digitalbusker he/him]

It is interesting to consider in a broader sense whether that death rattle is about a Baby Hitler scenario rather than a terrible sacrifice scenario.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

That's an interesting death rattle, but it seems to me to be describing what Taravangian is doing by using any means to preserve a small sliver of humanity. It's a pretty starkly awful image presented in the Death Rattle.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Busker said:

It is interesting to consider in a broader sense whether that death rattle is about a Baby Hitler scenario rather than a terrible sacrifice scenario.

Interesting point, but to know to kill Hitler when he's a baby requires pre-cognition of baby hitler's adult crimes, and pre-cognition could be wrong (even if you traveled back in time, the chain of events leading up to a future event could be irrevocably altered by simple inadvertent happenstance), and a possibly flawed judgement is no basis for killing a baby. I think that's a pretty hard circle to escape, while it's pretty clear Killing Babies is very Bad.

[digitalbusker he/him]

I guess that's why the rattler is so ambivalent about the wishes of all who breathe.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Busker said:

I guess that's why the rattler is so ambivalent about the wishes of all who breathe.

Here's a Ketek that sums this up niceley:

Dumb people born to die stupidly die to people the dumb.

[earthexile]

The thing about killing Baby Hitler is that you are left in the timeline where Hitler never did all the Hitler things, and you've now killed a baby

[Skryter he/him]

It'd also be interesting to consider who "all that live" refers to. For all we know it could be referring to the Dawnsingers rather than Rosharan humans.

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

1 hour ago, earthexile said:

The thing about killing Baby Hitler is that you are left in the timeline where Hitler never did all the Hitler things, and you've now killed a baby

Which, if taken to extremes, could justify going around killing arbitrary babies and then claiming you have saved the world.

Crazy logic, but I could see one of Heralds subscribing to this line of 'reasoning'.

[Aleksiel]

In my opinion killing baby Hitler wouldn't have changed much, there just would have been another figure to fill the role. Attributing all evil to him is a convenient oversimplification of a complex issue, but I go too much off topic, so I'll stop here. 

I don't see Gavinor fitting the role as nobody thought it would be great if he died. I think we haven't seen this yet, but if we have - my spheres would go to Jasnah deciding against killing Renarin. He sees the future, which is universally considered of the enemy and is bonded to a corrupt spren. This suggestion doesn't take the said death rattle literally, but they are metaphorical anyway.