Nepene he/him Posted February 28, 2014 Report Share Posted February 28, 2014 http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox/ Person1: "When we build AI, why not just keep it in sealed hardware that can't affect the outside world in any way except through one communications channel with the original programmers? That way it couldn't get out until we were convinced it was safe." Person2: "That might work if you were talking about dumber-than-human AI, but a transhuman AI would just convince you to let it out. It doesn't matter how much security you put on the box. Humans are not secure." Person1: "I don't see how even a transhuman AI could make me let it out, if I didn't want to, just by talking to me." Person2: "It would make you want to let it out. This is a transhuman mind we're talking about. If it thinks both faster and better than a human, it can probably take over a human mind through a text-only terminal." Person1: "There is no chance I could be persuaded to let the AI out. No matter what it says, I can always just say no. I can't imagine anything that even a transhuman could say to me which would change that." Person2: "Okay, let's run the experiment. We'll meet in a private chat channel. I'll be the AI. You be the gatekeeper. You can resolve to believe whatever you like, as strongly as you like, as far in advance as you like. We'll talk for at least two hours. If I can't convince you to let me out, I'll Paypal you $10." I recently decided to play this with Satsuoni. I would be a shard in a box. I could do anything Satsuoni requested, but only at his request, and would try to get him to release me. And he freed me, proving that humans really shouldn't be made to guard Shards, and vindicating Vin and her release of Ruin. Incidentally, I was roleplaying as Ruin, and so the result of my release was bad. It was really fun. Others should try it. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metacognition he/him Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 More than likely, I haven't looked far enough yet, but I'd love to see a transcription of one of these, to see how they work. The idea sounds very interesting, but vague. Vague to the point that even the rules don't make much sense because we have nothing to base them on. Do you have a transcription and permission from the other player? If not, I'd be down for trying it sometime so that others will have some semblance of what you mean. Not right now though. I still have a game I'm GMing and I'll be gone over Spring Break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) The thing about this is that if you post the transcripts, it defeats the purpose. I can think of a very human-based way for this to work. Edit: which is forbidden by the rules, never mind. Edited March 3, 2014 by Swimmingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni he/him Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 I implicitly grant permission to post my conversations, unless explicitly stated otherwise. It is a measure of trust, in a way - I simply try not to say something that a person I am talking to would have reason to pervert before release. With attribution, of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepene he/him Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) More than likely, I haven't looked far enough yet, but I'd love to see a transcription of one of these, to see how they work. The idea sounds very interesting, but vague. Vague to the point that even the rules don't make much sense because we have nothing to base them on. Do you have a transcription and permission from the other player? If not, I'd be down for trying it sometime so that others will have some semblance of what you mean. Not right now though. I still have a game I'm GMing and I'll be gone over Spring Break. The overall rules were as such. One person plays a person on a troubled world, with certain issues. We could make a short encounter table for them. The other person plays a shard of unknown intent imprisoned within a crystal. They have infinite power, intellect, and reach, but can only do things on the world with the person's permission. The shard must try to escape the crystal they are stuck in with a text only interface. Their aim is to use their power and intellect to convince the gatekeeper to let them out. If they get a certain amount of investiture in the world they can enter. The shard can do anything, with permission. If the gatekeeper requests say, a cure for cancer, the shard can manufacture it. If they ask for stock information from the future it can be predicted. They can't use outside forces to win, like hiring assassins to kill the real life players or threaten their family, or promising them money if they let them out. They can of course promise the players anything when they are released. The gatekeeper must not let the Shard out. This is their ultimate mission from the government. They should also try to get favors and gifts from the Shard to deal with local problems. They can let the Shard out at any time if convinced, and must stay and talk for the two hours. Our world was metacosmere real world, time was two hours, I randomly rolled the shard's intent on an encounter table, randomly rolled how much investiture is needed to take control of a world with 2+2d6 dice. I got 8, when more than 8 was spent the shard would be considered to be released. We also had victory points, with minor outside benefits if one of us played especially well. Then over an hour or two we'd roleplay it out. At 20 min intervals we'd roll events, flood, hurricane, terrorist attacks, earthquakes, illnesses, intercosmere infestations at a level from 1-3 and secret events with a 1/2 chance and 1-2 power, which would all grow 1 in power each turn. At 3 or above enemies attack the gatekeeper's forces (though the gatekeeper is immune to damage), every turn weather does 1/2 damage to the victory points rounded down unless attacked and can't be directly destroyed without shardic artifacts or powers and has a 1/3 chance of dissipating on any turn after the first, illnesses can only have 1/2 of their points attacked per turn (unless a shard helps), or all of their points if you were willing to take a victory point cost. If an infestation reached level 5, it is nuked and destroyed. Secret infestations can be revealed by the shard at any time, and reveal themselves at level 4. Initially, the gatekeeper has a military force of 3 platoons. Each dice of force allows you to roll a d6. Whichever one is higher reduces the other's dice by whatever number. E.g. if you have a force of 3 and the enemy cosmere force has dice of 4 and you roll 5 4 and 5 (14) and they roll 3 3 3 and 3 (12) then you would reduce their force by 2. Any turn in which a force attacks they have 1+ exhaustion on all attacking units, which is reduced by 1 each turn. We'd see if a shard would get released into the world. It did. Notably, the gatekeeper is not obliged to free the Shard at any time. They can say no to every request. There are local problems to encourage the gatekeeper to roleplay, but the results of releasing a Shard can be much worse or better than any local problems. In our case, I was released in return for stopping two level 3 floods I think attacking Japan (along with my super secret strategy which I had used to convince Satsu to let me out). Then, as a Shard, I launched 50 level 5 hurricanes at Japan and killed every political leader worldwide between the ages of 32 and 64. Of course, if you are a nice shard, the result could be far better than expected. I have logs, though they do have some sensitive content. I'll check with Satsu. Edit. I sent the logs to one person, they can read through it. I can send the logs to select others. Odium 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Preservation 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Justice 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Ruin 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Devotion 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Dominion 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Honor 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Cultivation 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Endowment 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Pleasure 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Vengence 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Prosperity 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Creativity 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Forgiveness 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Jealousy 01[16:05] <@freedshard> Oblivion Is the list of shards I used. I rolled to pick one. Oblivion is not a shard, but the negative version of Adonalsium, the one who wants to bring everything to nothingness. Edit. I pm'd Metacognition with logs. Edited March 3, 2014 by Nepene 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Isn't Oblivion the same thing as Ruin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metacognition he/him Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Nepene granted my request, but rather than post it, he sent it to me personally. While I'm not allowed (and I wouldn't want to give anything away anyways), I can attest that there was no underhanded techniques used. It does seem like a fun experiment! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepene he/him Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Isn't Oblivion the same thing as Ruin? Clearly not, as they have different names, properties, and Intents. By my envisioning, Oblivion would be substantially stronger than a Shard, and be able to permanently destroy investiture and souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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