[OB}Psychology and The Stormlight Archive

[aemetha]

I'm starting this thread because a few threads have gotten a bit off topic with some of the psychology discussion that sprouts from the threads topic. Most recently with discussion between myself and @Kingsdaughter613 and @PhineasGage so I'd invite you to continue that discussion, or other discussions of any and all psychology related to The Stormlight Archive so that we can digress without taking the threads further off-topic.

Anyway, I am happy to continue that discussion, but another thought occurred to me in the shower (it is a psychological fact that all the best thinking takes place in this location) so I'm going to throw this one out there too.

I would like to discuss Taravangian. Now, I imagine that anyone familiar with the basics of psychology will immediately leap to the assumption that his is a perfect example of the information processing as thought emphasised by the cognitive school of thought. I don't think that is the best fit to his overall behaviour though. I think Taravangian is an excellent example of the core tenets of humanistic thought. That human beings are inherently good and self-actualising. Taravangian is inherently good. He is doing his very best to try and save as many people as he can, and he goes through mental anguish at the pain and suffering he believes he has to inflict in order to achieve that. His entire approach embodies self-actualising, he is trying to improve himself and his circumstances to maximise his ability to achieve his goal of saving humanity. Maslow would be very proud of him, in a somewhat horrified manner.

[Kingsdaughter613]

That’s an interesting thought! I’d love to hear more on it. 

You clearly know way more about psychological theory than me. My focus is on art as therapy and art as a potential diagnostic tool. And we have no art from Mr. T! Obviously, the next book needs art work samples from all characters.

Shallan offers me much more to work with. Her preference for the concrete vs. the surreal implies a need for stability. This is also implied by her preference for charcoal (black on white/stark contrast) as well as her tendency to begin with broad strokes and outlines. 

The preference for charcoal also implies a fairly stark world view, with some rigidity.

Her switch to surrealism can be said to reflect the instability in her life. The way she reacts to the image is telling as well. 

Veil utilizing a completely different style (it's almost a cartoon!) is very interesting. It shows that Veil is viewed as a different person on an unconscious level. It also shows that Shallan sees herself as the artist, and not her personas. (I really wish we had art from Radiant.) Veil’s utilizing a cartoon is interesting, because cartoons and comics are simplified figures. Shallan tends to view Veil’s life as simpler.

Shallan collecting faces keeps  the people with her wherever she goes. This could imply several things, such as fear of loss or a need for connection. 

This is what I came up with at 05:35 off the top of my head. I hope it makes some sense.

Basically... I need more people to draw in SA.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[PhineasGage]

Fantastic! I think this could be a very valuable thread so thanks for starting it.

11 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I would like to discuss Taravangian. Now, I imagine that anyone familiar with the basics of psychology will immediately leap to the assumption that his is a perfect example of the information processing as thought emphasised by the cognitive school of thought. I don't think that is the best fit to his overall behaviour though. I think Taravangian is an excellent example of the core tenets of humanistic thought. That human beings are inherently good and self-actualising. Taravangian is inherently good. He is doing his very best to try and save as many people as he can, and he goes through mental anguish at the pain and suffering he believes he has to inflict in order to achieve that. His entire approach embodies self-actualising, he is trying to improve himself and his circumstances to maximise his ability to achieve his goal of saving humanity. Maslow would be very proud of him, in a somewhat horrified manner.

So I'm afraid I simply don't know enough to even begin understanding this (sorry). Could you either ELI5 or post some links for some basic research to allow me to understand? Once I've had a read, I'll probably need to ask questions! lol

I agree that I think Taravangian is an example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I would argue that Amaram is as well (for the most part). I suggest that Moash is not so like this - he acts for revenge instead. 

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The preference for charcoal also implies a fairly stark world view, with some rigidity.

Her switch to surrealism can be said to reflect the instability in her life. The way she reacts to the image is telling as well. 

Veil utilizing a completely different style (it's almost a cartoon!) is very interesting. It shows that Veil is viewed as a different person on an unconscious level. It also shows that Shallan sees herself as the artist, and not her personas. (I really wish we had art from Radiant.) Veil’s utilizing a cartoon is interesting, because cartoons and comics are simplified figures. Shallan tends to view Veil’s life as simpler.

Shallan collecting faces keeps  the people with her wherever she goes. This could imply several things, such as fear of loss or a need for connection.

Wow this is fascinating. I love how this actually ties really well with her (likely) diagnosis of OSDD. She is one person, but she identifies as 3. I know that in OSDD you can "divide" your skills between your alts - so a part of Shallan not only views the world completely differently, but she also doesn't identify her art in the same way because of it. 

I think the thing of needing connection is vital because OSDD is more likely to manifest in people who suffered from disrupted attachment as children. I hadn't realised that there was so much underpinning her use of art. We see some of Navani's drawings - about the airships for example. I know it is much more limited but does the fact that Navani's sketches tend to be more "practical" lead you to particular conclusions? Does Jasnah's initial disdain for the arts suggest anything?

[aemetha]

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I'm afraid I simply don't know enough to even begin understanding this (sorry). Could you either ELI5 or post some links for some basic research to allow me to understand? Once I've had a read, I'll probably need to ask questions! lol

Okay, so I'm a bit fuzzy at the moment from my night meds, but I took a look at the wikipedia article for humanistic psychology and it's pretty a pretty good overview of the subject for beginners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_psychology

11 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

We see some of Navani's drawings - about the airships for example. I know it is much more limited but does the fact that Navani's sketches tend to be more "practical" lead you to particular conclusions?

I'm quoting this because it reminded me of a thought I had when @Kingsdaughter613 mentioned cognitive art therapy in the other thread. I don't know how accurate this is because I suffer from one can only be described as the art equivalent of wernickes aphasia, but what immediately sprang to mind was computer aided drawing. Cognitive psychology likes to view the mind as a computer, so integrating that with art makes that leap in my mind. Is there any accuracy to that @Kingsdaughter613?

[Guest]

I don't have anything to add, but to tell you, that this is very interesting.

As you were.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Jasnah disdaining the arts is probably meaningless - you’d be amazed at how many people are like her. A lot of people stop drawing as children and never pick it up again, so I don’t find her that odd.

Navani seems to be rather logical, but her drawings are technical ones. I don’t have the book on me, so I can't really check. Her poetry and glyph art is far more telling, but I really need more examples. I really liked her transforming her emotions into art at the end of WoK. And her Ketek at the end of WoR shows turmoil, but also awe and wonder. So it’s very expressive.

I think Navani would be more accurately described as a poet or calligrapher. She sublimates her emotions as a mix of writing and glyph usage. It’s actually really healthy; she’s very well centered.

Adolin deals with emotions by using his sword - but he’s a duelist. Dueling is really more like dancing. I think it’s the sparring, and the motions - the kinetic art - that is really at play here. Which actually means his teaching Shallan was actually a form of therapy for him. Hmm... I didn’t put that one together before...

I’m wary of saying Shallan has more than DA, which we know she has. She’s pretty old for developing alts (which usually occurs in childhood), it’s usually an unconscious behavior, and she hasn’t had them long. WoB has also called them personas, not alters.

Right now I’m going with ‘Shallan sees Veil as not being able to draw and having a simpler existence’ while watching carefully to see how things progress. Shallan continuing to draw concrete, well bordered images is actually a good sign for cohesion. Veil’s drawing keeps those boundary lines, as it’s a cartoon, which is another good sign. I really want art from Radiant.

@aemetha Computer art is definitely a thing. I did a whole project on using the Sims build tool with teenagers! 

Art therapy tends toward the psychoanalytic. If I had to describe my image of the psyche it would probably be swirls of color and light and music. In my head the colors would form words. And... that sounds very artsy.

Art therapists are all very insistent that everyone can draw! (Never tell an art therapist anyone is not creative. Cue major lecture.) If I was working with you I’d probably first talk and ask why you feel that way about your art. Then I’d give you a pen and paper and ask you to draw me a stick figure. Though that’s based on what little you just told me. If I was actually working with you I might end up choosing something different.

Definitely a permanent type of media though. No erasing!

[aemetha]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Art therapists are all very insistent that everyone can draw! (Never tell an art therapist anyone is not creative. Cue major lecture.) If I was working with you I’d probably first talk and ask why you feel that way about your art.

I can definitely be creative, I just can't do it in visual media. I have a great deal of difficulty visualising things mentally, which is an important step in creating visual media. I really can't close my eyes and picture anything more complex than a ball of light, and even that is intermittent. I also suffer from racing thoughts, which doesn't help.

[Kingsdaughter613]

I’d probably tell you not to envision then.

I’d give you paint, and have you close your eyes (or even blindfold, if you’d be okay with that.) Then I’d have you name a color, hand you a brush and tell you to let your hand go where it wants. 

Alternatively, I’d give you clay and have shut your eyes and let your hands do the work.

I’d also put on soothing music.

In many ways it’s better for people to create without a specific intent. A lot can come out that way. Art often requires visualization. Art therapy doesn’t. 

Funny thing is, despite your preference for Cognitive therapies, your descriptions tell me that less cognitive art would be better for you. The more cognitive therapies are often more concrete. 

At some point, presuming you were my client, I’d do some visualization work with you. 

I’d probably also do something with light, like painting small bulbs (like Christmas lights) or decorating baubles you can put candles in. This would also be later on.

For the first few sessions I’d just focus on removing the need for visualization while utilizing different media.

[PhineasGage]

Gosh, well having read the wiki on humanistic psychology, it has me really excited. I mean I think it is clear that whether deliberately or not, Brandon is using at least some of these principles to underpin his writing. 

From the wiki:

Quote

 Eastern philosophy and psychology also play a central role in humanistic psychology, as well as Judeo-Christian philosophies of personalism, as each shares similar concerns about the nature of human existence and consciousness.^[4]

And I think this meshes really well with Sanderson as a person because not only are his own religious beliefs important to him but he spent a good persiod of time in Korea as a missionary so his own thought proces about people likely reflects a mix of these principles.

My feeling is that the 1st ideal for the orders in particular is very much about self-actualisation - the meaning of the ideal varies from person to person and will likely change over a person's life. As long as you live in accordance with how you interpret the ideal, then you are fine, but as soon as any cognitive dissonance creeps in you start getting problems like Kaladin had with Syl.

I was also thinking about the progress of our Main characters - self actualisation is a vital part of each of them progressing as Radiants - not only do they have to say the ideal, they must understand it well enough so that they can live it going forward. 

I know we kinda started on Adolin from the previous thread so I wondered if we could quickly address him here - I am not so sure he has any self-actualisation (yet). It doesn't make him a bad person, but it would explain his relative lack of growth. If you disagree, I am happy to be corrected - I just want to be sure I understand the basics.

36 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think Navani would be more accurately described as a poet or calligrapher. She sublimates her emotions as a mix of writing and glyph usage. It’s actually really healthy; she’s very well centered.

Adolin deals with emotions by using his sword - but he’s a duelist. Dueling is really more like dancing. I think it’s the sparring, and the motions - the kinetic art - that is really at play here. Which actually means his teaching Shallan was actually a form of therapy for him. Hmm... I didn’t put that one together before...

I’m wary of saying Shallan has more than DA, which we know she has. She’s pretty old for developing alts (which usually occurs in childhood), it’s usually an unconscious behavior, and she hasn’t had them long. WoB has also called them personas, not alters.

Re Navani - I think this means that because she can use words she can express herself more acutely than if it was just in a drawing? Does that mean we need Shallan to become more inclined to use words than her art or can she just use her art differently? 

Re Adolin - that is a really good point. He needs to feel like he is doing something and can release it through practice and action. Actually we see him think something like this when he fights Eshonai at the end of WoR. He feels like he can get to know someone through the way they fight. By training Shallan he is not only relieving his own internal pressure but he also aims to get to know her better and help her get to know him.

Re Shallan. From my research, OSDD can easily present at 17yo. Indeed it usually only presents and gets diagnosed in early adulthood (https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/916186-overview) .  Shallan was dissociating prior to that with black-outs and timelapses. IRL I would have imagined her taken into care then fragmenting earlier as a result but she was sheltered from that and it gave her reason to keep dissociating via time-lapse instead . For DID and related disorders to start it takes a trigger that occurs after a particularly difficult event. Shallan fractures because she can't accept her 4th truth ("I killed my mother") likely because she cannot really accept the full implications of that. Then, only a matter of weeks later Adolin tells her to spar. He unintentionally forced her to use the one thing she was avoiding - the Shardblade - and so she starts fragmenting to cope - she couldn't just black-out to avoid the situation which would be her usual go to method.

We know from a WoB that she is one individual so her personas are alts - they can't be anything else if she is one person unless we are suggesting posession? I don't see that as likely - we have no evidence to suggest that but we know Shallan based Veil on herself.

I am unclear why keeping Veil separate would be "healthy" - from my understanding of the therapy for DID/OSDD etc it is vital for the person to (eventually) realise that they are 1 person, not multiple people. Sometimes people can live as one of their alts permanently but apparently spontaneous reintegration can happen and that it is unpredictable and very painful. Therapy is designed round the person to give them new coping strategies, to reduce their anxiety and then to identify the traumas that underpin the condition and face them as a whole rather than separate themselves off from it. An explanation would be helpful  

36 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Art therapists are all very insistent that everyone can draw! (Never tell an art therapist anyone is not creative. Cue major lecture.) If I was working with you I’d probably first talk and ask why you feel that way about your art. Then I’d give you a pen and paper and ask you to draw me a stick figure. Though that’s based on what little you just told me. If I was actually working with you I might end up choosing something different.

Definitely a permanent type of media though. No erasing!

Yikes, art therapy sounds scary! I can't draw either (and despite not wanting to annoy you, don't consider myself terribly creative either!) I can't imagine being able to draw something then hand it over to someone - I'd feel so judged! Also, I trend towards analytical. I think I am ENTP personality type. Probably why I get a bit argumentative here (sorry btw). 

36 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Art therapy tends toward the psychoanalytic. If I had to describe my image of the psyche it would probably be swirls of color and light and music. In my head the colors would form words. And... that sounds very artsy.

Out of interest, is that how you would describe everyone's minds? I mean, presumably with different colours/music etc but otherwise alike? I tend to think of myself as thinking in diagrams with long-hand annotations. A bit like Shallan's drawings but much more 2D/icon like than proper images. If I write or think a sentence I visualise the words as they are written down. If I have to think about more abstract things the diagrams get smaller and the notations get longer but thats about it. Despite enjoying music a great deal, I don't "think" in music at all as far as I can tell. Just wondering about how different visualisations matter (if indeed they do).

EDIT - sorry I mean to come back to this and forgot:

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

I would like to discuss Taravangian. Now, I imagine that anyone familiar with the basics of psychology will immediately leap to the assumption that his is a perfect example of the information processing as thought emphasised by the cognitive school of thought. I don't think that is the best fit to his overall behaviour though. I think Taravangian is an excellent example of the core tenets of humanistic thought. That human beings are inherently good and self-actualising. Taravangian is inherently good. He is doing his very best to try and save as many people as he can, and he goes through mental anguish at the pain and suffering he believes he has to inflict in order to achieve that. His entire approach embodies self-actualising, he is trying to improve himself and his circumstances to maximise his ability to achieve his goal of saving humanity. Maslow would be very proud of him, in a somewhat horrified manner.

So I get why you think he is a good example of humanistic principles. The wiki states the following as the 5 core principles:

Quote

1. Human beings, as human, supersede the sum of their parts. They cannot be reduced to components.
2. Human beings have their existence in a uniquely human context, as well as in a cosmic ecology.
3. Human beings are aware and are aware of being aware - i.e., they are conscious. Human consciousness always includes an awareness of oneself in the context of other people.
4. Human beings have the ability to make choices and therefore have responsibility.
5. Human beings are intentional, aim at goals, are aware that they cause future events, and seek meaning, value, and creativity.

So this is vital when considering Taravangian because his initial goal (when he went to the Nightwatcher) was to save mankind. His goalposts have shifted but those shifts seem to be planned for in some way by "super-smart Taravangian. He also kind of breaks the 3rd rule when he is "smart" because he loses empathy then. I think this is important. I wonder if it is actually his capacity for empathy that will ultimately matter more than his plan? I have long suspected that he thought the intelligence was the only way forward, but I personally think kindness/compassion goes a lot further than brains. 

Oh i just realised that these 5 principles kind of mimic the 5 ideals.... I'm probably going way too deep now. But the 4th principle here is about responsibility - and at least 2 of the orders require you to accept responsibility as part of your progression. Indeed the lightweavers esentially need you to take conscious responsibility for everything you have done. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by PhineasGage

[Kingsdaughter613]

Alright, so I’m dealing with Shallan first. I am using persona in the Jungian sense. Brandon says persona, and the three realms clearly draw from Jungian psychology, so I don’t think that is an accident.

Personas are not the same as alters. The biggest difference being awareness and control.

The fracturing of the identity occurs in childhood. Manifestation can take years. The creation of alters is also generally unconscious. Shallan consciously creates personas as an adult to deal with pain. This is rather different than DID.

Furthermore, DID is often caused by DA. Recalling the suppressed memories is an important part of recovery. To put it another way: suppressing memory caused DID; recalling is part of healing. Shallan is doing the opposite, implying this is not DID.

Shallan has not had her Personas long. Nor has she been kept apart from Stormlight for long. Both would need to be observed to make a diagnosis.

I think you misunderstood what I meant about the art. Shallan draws strong borders. She does the same in the Veil persona. Strong borders are symbolic of cohesion. (Also keeping things out, and keeping things in; protection too.) It’s keeping the psyche safe. This implies that Shallan is preserving her psyche even when she is Veil, which is a good sign regarding healing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_(psychology) Just read the description and you’ll see why I think Veil and Radiant are Personas, not alters. Their are too many similarities between Jung’s persona and lightweaving!

I think Shallan is dealing with a shattered persona, which she is trying to recreate. The end result will, hopefully, be individuation and becoming whole. 

I had a wonderful teacher for Personality. He was an third or fourth generation psychologist. One of the best teachers I ever had.

Navani: writing is a type of art. Poetry is a particular form of art. Navani expresses her self most freely in calligraphy and poetry. This how she creates art.

Dance therapy is also part of CAT. What Adolin does when practicing is basically DT. For him, dueling is an art. When he practices he sublimates his emotions. Kaladin is very similar, finding flow as he moves through the spear forms.

Art therapy isn’t scary. Whatever you create is fine. There is no judgement. When my daughter was sick I painted a whole canvas full of colored swirls, with an art therapist. Not technical in the least, but very soothing.

Art therapy believes that the act of creation is healing. Through art unconscious impulses can rise to the surface, allowing for sublimation. It can be done in groups, or one on one.

‘No erasing’ was because many people nervous about their art often erase extensively, then get all upset about ‘messing up.’ (You cannot mess up in art therapy.) Removing the eraser, and giving a simple clear directive, can help ease the client into the art. 

Once I knew more about aemetha’s particular difficulty, I went a different route entirely.

I’d need to know more about why you don’t feel comfortable drawing. A possible idea: balloons filled with paint and a handful of darts. (Suggested by a teacher for something else entirely. But it’s a great idea with many application.)

Based on your description of how you think, I might give you different rulers and let you play around with them in different patterns and positions.

Laughs! You’re an ENTP? I’m an ENFP! So we’re pretty close actually. The Myers-Briggs test was based on some of Jung’s theories. I found it very accurate for me, including the ‘least extroverted of the extroverts.’ Literally, I was an E by one question.

This is how I view my mind. I think we each have our own personal way of seeing our psyche. What’s important is that the disparate elements form a whole; they should not be fragmented. Fragmentation is a wound in the psyche - a crack in the soul, if you will.

I like your idea on the 5 Humanistic Principals correlating to the five ideals. It’s similar to mine: the three parts of the Jungian psyche matching the three realms. The ego: Physical. Personal unconscious: Cognitive. Collective unconscious: Spiritual.

Here’s a pretty decent overview on Jung. (Much better than Wikipedia.) http://journalpsyche.org/jungian-model-psyche/

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Just read the description and you’ll see why I think Veil and Radiant are Personas, not alters. Their are too many similarities between Jung’s persona and lightweaving!

Shallan doesn't always lightweave when switching.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Sorry, it was supposed to say Lightweaver. Meaning the order. I did say I was up all night.

[PhineasGage]

50 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Alright, so I’m dealing with Shallan first. I am using persona in the Jungian sense. Brandon says persona, and the three realms clearly draw from Jungian psychology, so I don’t think that is an accident.

Personas are not the same as alters. The biggest difference being awareness and control.

The fracturing of the identity occurs in childhood. Manifestation can take years. The creation of alters is also generally unconscious. Shallan consciously creates personas as an adult to deal with pain. This is rather different than DID.

Furthermore, DID is often caused by DA. Recalling the suppressed memories is an important part of recovery. To put it another way: suppressing memory caused DID; recalling is part of healing. Shallan is doing the opposite, implying this is not DID.

Shallan has not had her Personas long. Nor has she been kept apart from Stormlight for long. Both would need to be observed to make a diagnosis.

I think you misunderstood what I meant about the art. Shallan draws strong borders. She does the same in the Veil persona. Strong borders are symbolic of cohesion. (Also keeping things out, and keeping things in; protection too.) It’s keeping the psyche safe. This implies that Shallan is preserving her psyche even when she is Veil, which is a good sign regarding healing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_(psychology) Just read the description and you’ll see why I think Veil and Radiant are Personas, not alters. Their are too many similarities between Jung’s persona and lightweaving!

I think Shallan is dealing with a shattered persona, which she is trying to recreate. The end result will, hopefully, be individuation and becoming whole. 

I had a read of that persona link you sent and I agree that Shallan starts off using true personas - Veil is a "version" of Shallan she uses when she needs to go places that Shallan can't However, as I said, OSDD can fracture much later than you seem to believe (based on international research as summarised in medscape). It does have to happen on a background of childhood abuse or neglect, but doesn't have to manifest until much later. Indeed, that is one of the major challenges of treating it.

This is a description of OSDD. Alters don't have to be unaware of each other - indeed Shallan is actually textbook for this one specific subtype of this  case. http://did-research.org/comorbid/dd/osdd_udd/did_osdd.html (paragraph about halfway down the page is the one i mean)

The difference between a persona and an alt is the understanding of the autobiography. From what I understand, in a pathological persona system (which is a variant on the normal coping mechanism), there is one identity that identifies overly strongly with one aspect of that person - eg their job. That persona knows who and what they are and what they have done. They may have repressed memories and even false memories but they don't sometimes think they are different people. Even of there is more than one persona , each is still identified as "me". It might be "home me" and "work me" and "17th shard me" but they are all still "me". 

Alts are different and this is clearly demonstrated by Veil. No matter which alt we get, we see them think as Shallan, Veil or Radiant and they talk about each other as separate individuals. On top of that, we see Veil doesn't identify with Shallan's autobiography when she talks about Shallan lightweaving as a child. Even at the wedding Veil says something like "This is good for you" (em mine).  They have different characteristics because the core personality is split. They split their skill sets, indeed even if either Veil or Shallan were to hold the shardblade, only Radiant actually knows anything about it so chances are they would be less proficient than her. This is not a normal reaction, or indeed a normal variant. It is uncontrolled much of the time and switching tends to happen when an identity is faced with a stressor that the identity isn't built to handle. 

Regarding DID, you mentioned that recalling memories is key and this is what Shallan is doing so it can't be DID. I disagree. In order for DID or OSDD to start the process of reintegration the person needs to accept the truth of the situation - Shallan hasn't really done this yet. Oh she said the words, but she isn't thinking about it at all as far as we can see - she tries to stuff it into the back of her mind and when she can't she fragments. That gives her an alt she can push the pain onto. The lightweaving can augment fragmentation because she can change the outward appearance of each alt too. I don't think lightweaving can be said to relate more to personas than alts. They both work.

50 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think you misunderstood what I meant about the art. Shallan draws strong borders. She does the same in the Veil persona. Strong borders are symbolic of cohesion. (Also keeping things out, and keeping things in; protection too.) It’s keeping the psyche safe. This implies that Shallan is preserving her psyche even when she is Veil, which is a good sign regarding healing.

You are right, I didn't understand, and I still don't think I do. How do you define borders in this case so I can see what you mean? Could you give me an example of what a "weak border" might look like of absence of borders?

I haven't read all the Jungian stuff but I'll go and have a look now and get back to you regarding it. 

50 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Laughs! You’re an ENTP? I’m an ENFP! So we’re pretty close actually. The Myers-Briggs test was based on some of Jung’s theories. I found it very accurate for me, including the ‘least extroverted of the extroverts.’ Literally, I was an E by one question

Yeah it was very accurate for me too. I think the MB is a really good test considering how little time psychology has actually had to get in with the "real science" crowd. I mean, it still gets a lot of trouble for being a "soft science" but it will get there eventually - it's just got to get past the initial rejection and that takes time. I got listed as "the debater" which was really accurate because I love playing devil's advocate. It has occasionally got me in trouble -  I can't think why.....  

55 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Based on your description of how you think, I might give you different rulers and let you play around with them in different patterns and positions.

Yeah, that sounds much more like fun! And I wouldn't worry quite so much about not being able to rub things out because I could plan a bit better with the ruler. I know that Art therapy is totally non-judgmental but at the same time, it would always be there at the back of my mind. And the stupidest thing is I would then worry about worrying about it. *rolls eyes* And I hate feeling stupid! 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The creation of alters is also generally unconscious. Shallan consciously creates personas as an adult to deal with pain. This is rather different than DID.

I feel like, that there is a combination going on. She consciously creates her personas, but unconsciously splits into alters while doing so.

From what I've read, especially if you go with the theory of structural dissociation, that says, that persons don't start with a fully integrated identity, but rather, that persons start with many unintegrated parts, that continually integrate to form an integrated identity, but situations of high stress (which was given in any situation, that Shallan created new personas/alters) disrupt that integration, which lets a part of the keep being unintegrated. This does not necessarily has to be during childhood. That is how I understood it. Maybe clarify with your resources, @PhineasGage? (Note: I don't want to give the impression, that we are double-teaming you @Kingsdaughter613. It is just, that Phin is more or less an expert there and has access to resources, while I am just a code monkey )

Edit: Did we just post at exactly the same time?

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

@SLNC I haven't seen anything about Jungian personas and their relation to OSDD. I'll go and have a look. There is definitely something there because Shallan uses fairly normal personas initially that then take on their own individual identities that fight to dominate the consciousness and drive the body. They are a representation of very poorly crystalised personality which is a result of poor attachment in childhood. The structures that are formed are at risk of fragmenting because they are relatively loosely held together and usually the person knows very few healthy coping strategies. I'll need to read the Jungian basics that @Kingsdaughter613 sent first though so I can tease out more detail from the texts I find. 

[Guest]

Just now, PhineasGage said:

I'll need to read the Jungian basics that @Kingsdaughter613 sent first though so I can tease out more detail from the texts I find. 

Cool.

Looking forward to it!

[Kingsdaughter613]

The biggest reason I’m against the DID diagnosis is because there hasn’t been much time since she created the Personas, and during most of that time she had access to Stormlight. 

Not knowing which components are magical is tricky.

Actually, pathological Personas can be quite complicated. Ever heard of an actor getting lost in a role? The part becomes so real they can lose track of themselves. There have been actors who admited to not knowing who they really were. This feels more like that to me than DID, especially due to the progression.

While I do believe DID exists, it’s also very rare. It’s over used in media so much that I really want this to not end up as DID. Brandon’s already done that, after all. I’d prefer something different. And he did refer to them as Personas not alters. Maybe someone could get clarification on this?

Mistborn spoilers:

The figure below has strong borders. It’s a cartoon, so it has to. When Shallan draws she starts with thick, bold strokes for an outline. That’s a border.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[aemetha]

It would be a mistake to conflate OSDD to DID so specifically. OSDD is a catch-all for dissociative conditions that don't meet all the criteria for DID. Shallan certainly doesn't have DID, because she consciously chooses her alts, and is fully cognisant of them at all times. DID is an unconscious response to trauma, while Shallan consciously chose it for herself, in what could be described as self-brainwashing. Her exact condition is a close fit to what has in the past been referred to as OSDD-1b which you can read about here: http://did-research.org/comorbid/dd/osdd_udd/did_osdd.html

[aemetha]

The Myers-Briggs type indicator is also quite dated. The five-factor personality model is more comprehensive and has a greater level of acceptance of its validity. You can read about them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

I personally don't put a lot of stock in that type of personality grouping or childhood attachment though in treating people. I like the approach of Ellis and Beck in treating people, where if it isn't immediately relevant to the problems a person is facing, it just isn't discussed. It's quite a significant departure from psychodynamic approaches which seek to uncover the past issues that have been repressed and find acceptance with those. In the cognitive therapies of Ellis and Beck a therapist works with the client to uncover the faulty assumptions that lead to irrational (Ellis) or dysfunctional (Beck) cognitions.

So what you have in psychoanalytic methods is a lot of exploration of the past and the unconscious, with the goal of bringing the unconscious events affecting a person into the conscious in a way that is tolerable, and behaviour and cognition being modified as a function of acceptance and understanding of the issue.

In the cognitive methods, the past events are skipped, because while they are relevant to the creation of a faulty assumption, they are not relevant to correcting the faulty assumption. New information is processed through the lens of our schema, which is made up of our cognitions, emotions, motivations and behaviours. Each of those is based on assumptions that we develop through experience. When a faulty assumption is introduced to that lens through which we interpret new information, it creates a cognitive vulnerability, which in turn causes a cognitive shift in the information processed by it. Cognitive therapists use Socratic dialogue and collaborative empiricism to help a client come to the realisation that the assumptions are faulty, and subsequently develop more accurate assumptions to correct the cognitive vulnerability.

I think childhood attachment has implications on the aetiology of mental disorders, but is largely unhelpful in the treatment of them. There can be a tendency for people to arrive at the conclusion that their disorder is inevitable because of unalterable events at a very young age which they have no ability to influence. First and foremost to facilitating change, is getting acceptance that the situation can be changed. There are similar issues with personality grouping, people have a tendency to say "I'm like this because of my personality group" which implies a certain permanence that isn't evident in individual who are open to changing.

[Kingsdaughter613]

So Jung is technically psychoanalytic, not psychodynamic. The basic idea is that people are made of disparate parts which come together to form a whole.

Jungian psychology focuses on the creation of the whole, a process known as individuation. Unlike Freud, Jung did not view the unconscious merely as a repository for suppressed feelings or memories. It was everything not part of the conscious mind; how we think, as opposed to what we are thinking. Jung was not about making the unconscious conscious; it was about disparate parts of the self work together to form a complete individual.

I’m not explaining this that well. The best description I can give is the Jung hovers between psychodynamic and humanistic theories. Due to the unconscious nature of art, his theories play a pretty big role in a lot of our work.

[aemetha]

Psychodynamic refers to a set of theories about psychology, while psychoanalytic refers to a set of techniques in which the perspective is applied in professional practices. I do get where you're coming from, and you're right that some of it does align with concepts from the humanistic perspective like the ideal self etc. Psychoanalysis is what you see portrayed on TV as the default technique with the couch so the patient is unable to see the reactions of the therapist. Most practitioners feel that this limits the interaction between the therapist and the client, and with the therapeutic alliance being the main determining factor in the efficacy of a therapy, the practice has become less prevalent. In reality most therapists are eclectic or cognitive behavioural, so you're really quite unlikely to see that from a therapist. You'd probably be more likely to see it from a psychiatrist as they apparently like the technique but psychiatrists despite their portrayal as therapists on televisions have far more in common with other medical doctors than they do with psychologists or therapists and psychoanalysis would in most cases only be a small part of what they do.

[PhineasGage]

Morning.  So I've tried to do some reading on the subject but I am still way behind you both on this. I have found a couple of pieces that I think relate somewhat to the discussion that might be of some interest.

This one is an abstract the briefly describes how Jungian complexes can fit into a system that devolves to true DID. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2808130 As It is an abstract it isn't very detailed but it does help reconcile the idea of personas into alters. It was published in 1989.

This one is a dissertation from 2010 https://search.proquest.com/openview/4d14bcf646dcb45a3f9472d4b44f4ac1/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y It does a decent literature review (at least I thought so but my background is admittedly extremely limited) and tries to use Jungs theories to view DID and other dissociation states as non-pathological (in that they are coping mechanisms rather that the result of disease). 

Obviously, they relate specifically to DID, not OSDD so there are limitations in them with regards to how I would relate them to Shallan, but there are interesting concepts in both because they allow for a "spectrum" between normal personals and the fragmentation of identity. On top of that, both are quite old in terms of understanding of DID and related disorders so there is likely more up to date information out there but I couldn't find any during my limited google search for topics I could understand that were also relevant. I could do a more thorough search but I am not sure it will add to the discussion at this time.

17 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The biggest reason I’m against the DID diagnosis is because there hasn’t been much time since she created the Personas, and during most of that time she had access to Stormlight. 

I actually disagree here - Shallan has been using personas in my opinion for some time. She puts on a face to confront Jasnah in tWoK that is much more assertive than the girl she seemed to be on the Wind's Pleasure. She also had slightly different personas at home - from the cringing, withdrawn girl to the one who made her brothers laugh "to drive back the darkness". She displayed different aspects of herself to cope with different situations. These are not to be confused with her dissociation that she goes through when she killed her father (the coldness of clarity) because that is more like a combat stress reaction than anything imo (there is likely a better term for this particular situation?).

I think she started using her personas more consciously as of WoR when she lightweaves (and maybe soulcasts ? it is unclear at this point) on herself to make herself able to face Dalinar and Navani to tell them of Jasnah's "death" and then obviously creating Veil. Veil at this point was still Shallan. Indeed in PoV she still thinks as Shallan, and considers Veil to just be a version of herself. Definitely a mask - one she created specifically to do a job Shallan never had to do - ie infiltrate the Ghostbloods. She starts thinking more abut Veil being different in the chasms with Kaladin (she thinks it is a pity Veil wasn't "down here") but even then, it isn't really more than a persona because as she relaxes with Kaladin the full personality comes out. This is not true with OB where she has definitely split and her identities are truly separate. She is definitely a "multiple" at this point because we can see them believe they have different selves (egos I guess in Jungian terms). This is not true for personas who all describe one ego that they represent in different ways. 

13 hours ago, aemetha said:

In the cognitive methods, the past events are skipped, because while they are relevant to the creation of a faulty assumption, they are not relevant to correcting the faulty assumption. New information is processed through the lens of our schema, which is made up of our cognitions, emotions, motivations and behaviours. Each of those is based on assumptions that we develop through experience. When a faulty assumption is introduced to that lens through which we interpret new information, it creates a cognitive vulnerability, which in turn causes a cognitive shift in the information processed by it. Cognitive therapists use Socratic dialogue and collaborative empiricism to help a client come to the realisation that the assumptions are faulty, and subsequently develop more accurate assumptions to correct the cognitive vulnerability

According to medscape treatment for DID and OSDD generally starts with CBT to help with leaning new coping strategies because you want the person to be able to choose different strategies other than switching alts or simply dissociating. Once that happens you can start to explore the past (but you have to be guided by the client of course) and this happens very slowly, usually in a spiral pattern where you retrun to CBT frequently. Spontaneous reintegration can happen and because it is unpredictable, the coping mechanisms are the most important - the person needs to have as many weapons in their arsenal as possible to face it. As I understand it, because treatment is patient centred you only go into the past in depth if the client requests it. That said, an important aspect of preventing anxiety that arises from the past is helping the client "accept" the truth of it and accept that they are in no way to blame. It seems that the dissonance of knowing the pain what was done whilst feeling to blame for what was done seems to be the core of the anxiety that presents later in life. Indeed I think this is why Shallan fractures when she does - she acknowledges the past (she killed her mother) but I don't think she has accepted that she was not to blame for her mother attacking her. That might just be my read on it though. My point is that different clients will need different amounts of time focusing on their personal history to get that "closure". 

 

4 hours ago, aemetha said:

You'd probably be more likely to see it from a psychiatrist as they apparently like the technique but psychiatrists despite their portrayal as therapists on televisions have far more in common with other medical doctors than they do with psychologists or therapists and psychoanalysis would in most cases only be a small part of what they do.

I'm doing my psych block right now and actually none of the psychiatrists I have seen do this at all. They just talk to the patient the same way any other doctor does. It just takes longer because their "examination" is of the thoughts and feelings of the patient rather than their heart sounds/ breathing sounds etc. Occasionally they may disengage from an aggressive patient by looking away or blocking the view of them, but in general it is just like the normal "talk across the desk" you see from any other specialty. If they think the patient needs more psychological support then they refer them to a psychologist because you should use the person best trained for the job. In the hospital here there are several clinical (? I assume) psychologists who work with the patients in much greater detail than any of the doctors. But then a doctor will see each in-patient every day (usually) whereas a psychologist likely will only see each patient once a week or so. The doctor's role is diagnosis and pharmacological treatment and then referral to specific therapists in accordance with what is likely the best for that individual case. The psychological training simply wouldn't be detailed enough (at least in the UK and Cyprus from what I've seen) to be of any great use. 

 

EDIT - ugh I've been made a son of Honor (rep title) - I didn't ask for that  

Edited December 5, 2017 by PhineasGage
Added thought

[aemetha]

41 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Once that happens you can start to explore the past (but you have to be guided by the client of course) and this happens very slowly, usually in a spiral pattern where you retrun to CBT frequently. Spontaneous reintegration can happen and because it is unpredictable, the coping mechanisms are the most important - the person needs to have as many weapons in their arsenal as possible to face it. As I understand it, because treatment is patient centred you only go into the past in depth if the client requests it. That said, an important aspect of preventing anxiety that arises from the past is helping the client "accept" the truth of it and accept that they are in no way to blame. It seems that the dissonance of knowing the pain what was done whilst feeling to blame for what was done seems to be the core of the anxiety that presents later in life.

Right, this is typical of cognitive approaches. Any exploration of past events is limited to events relevant to the present issues a client is facing. This is a key difference from psychoanalytic methods which tend to be focused on fixing the founding causes and treating the present difficulties as a secondary condition to the primary past trauma. Cognitive therapists maintain that it isn't necessary to fully explore a past trauma, just enough to identify and correct a cognitive vulnerability. Modern cbt is an evolution of Beck's cognitive therapy, which itself is influenced by Ellis's rational emotive behavioural therapy.

[Kingsdaughter613]

It should be noted that there are few recent studies because many psychologists do not believe DID, or its related disorders exist. 

I should have clarified. Her Personas as seemingly independent entities is a recent phenomenon, with this transition possibly being aided by access to surges, has not occurred for a long enough period to be determined as pathological. Does that make more sense?

Jungian therapy would probably focus on reintegration of the personae into Psyche.