[OB] Adolin's breaking

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Ooooh this coincides with one of my favorite WoBs:

source

This to me says that you don't need to be broken, you just need to be "open" for the nahel bound. Adolin has viewed himself with that blade so long and treated it as an extension of himself that I don't believe he will need to be "broken". 

While I don't necessarily disagree, as I've stated previously in the Mayalaran thread and quoted on the first page of this one, to say that Adolin isn't broken disregards everything we've learned of his life. 

He lost his mother as a teenager. He lost thousands of men many of which were friends at the Tower. The emotional roller coaster that was the four on one duel. The severe fear and paranoia he showed after Szeth's attack on Dalinar, pushing himself to the point of exhaustion to protect his father. He snapped enough to kill Sadeas due to his own emotional strain. 

Adolin is only unbroken when viewed in comparison to the main characters, which have been through such extremes that if their experiences were normal for Radiants, there would never have been Radiants in the thousands. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Calderis

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Alderant said:

I agree somewhat, but comparing something like SA or WoT to Harry Potter is very much comparing apples to oranges. Harry Potter has a very small cast that is written entirely from the viewpoint of one character. There are only a handful of significant characters, and since the entirety of the series is written from one viewpoint, there isn't any need for outside views on the situations, characters, or events. Harry Potter is not about Hermione, Ron, or anyone else--it is about Harry Potter.

Epic fantasy, however, is known for its large cast of characters. It's known for plots that involve entire continents and nations. So it is frequent to use alternative viewpoints on a semi-static character as a way of demonstrating aspects of other characters or situations from another viewpoint that is not the main characters'. With such a large cast of characters, the story is not about simply one person, it's about a group of people, as well as the situations and conflicts that swirl around them.

Unfortunately, what Adolin's character seems to be is that he is a viewpoint for us to learn plot points and character perceptions through. In WoK most of his viewpoints are Dalinar-centric. We get insights to him as a character, but he is used primarily as a tool to help us understand Dalinar from an outsider's perspective. In WoR he began to take on his own presence, though there were several scenes from his viewpoint that were Dalinar-centric as well as a few that were Shallan-centric. In OB, most of his scenes are Shallan-centric. This is also why we see very little development on his character--because he exists, as Brandon states, primarily as a device to further the plots that are occurring in the world and with the characters around him.

The Sadeas plot didn't ultimately matter because it was a segue for two plot points: the battle of Thaylen Field and the appearance of Re-Shephir.

I think this is primarily what is so frustrating about his character. We all want him to be a main character, but in Brandon's mind, he is not. He is a side character. Which is why I believe as the plot stands now, we have more to gain by losing him than by having him continue in a convoluted plot to resurrect a dead spren. His continued existence will probably be more of the same, but his absence will affect the main characters profoundly. But that last part's just my own thoughts on the matter.

I compared Adolin to Ron in response to another poster launching the comparison. I do agree Harry Potter and SA have a very different format and, as such, cannot be compared. I however strongly disagree with the idea Adolin is to SA what Ron was to Harry Potter for the mere reason Adolin actually is a viewpoint character, whereas Ron isn't. Obviously, the Harry Potter series was about... Harry and it narrated events happening to Harry. Ron and Hermione were the side-kicks which helped him navigate through the events, but he was the one things were happening to. Now, the major difference in between Adolin and Ron, apart from the viewpoint, is events are actually happening to Adolin.

• Adolin did murder Sadeas.
• Adolin do feel unworthy of his father's name.
• Adolin is the sole non-Radiant member of his family.
• Adolin does go through horrific events where people he cares for are brutally murdered.
• Adolin's childhood wasn't as perfect as all initially thought it was.

So all in all, events are happening to Adolin, to him and to no one else, but the narrative structure of SA is currently ignoring them. As such, while it is entirely true Adolin's purpose might be to "supplement" other characters narrative, the fact he was forced to face "significant events" make him more than a mere "minor supporting character". In other words, Adolin has outgrown the role the author first gave him by virtue of having been too central to the action. Now stuff has happened to the character, not broaching it, treating it as if it never happened is doing the narrative a great disservice.

Not every reader is agreeing with this, but as far as I am concerned, if a character is seen murdering another character, if this character is written has having issues, then I certainly expect those elements to matter in one way or another within the narrative. In OB, none which happened to Adolin mattered. The end result is Adolin has grown into a very frustrating character, not just because he isn't a main protagonist as some wish he were, but because he is basically one of the only character of importance the author seems resolute to force into a predefined role. We also have Navani who's being used as a supplement character, but unlike Adolin her narrative doesn't involve her doing or going through things, not significantly so, hence the absence of aftermath is expected, though many readers were disappointed not to read her reunion with Jasnah.

7 hours ago, Govir said:

I agree that it'll damage their relationship, but I do not think that in the long run it will be a big deal to Adolin. Specifically because of *how* it happened. Dalinar did not directly kill his wife. It was truly an unfortunate accident. Dalinar blames himself, and may not have forgiven himself for it, but Adolin has his mother's kindness in him too and I fully expect Adolin would either not blame or at least forgive his father. I expect there to be a bit of a drag out, similar to Elokhar's death (i.e. initially it will be super painful, and Adolin will storm out), but that eventually Adolin will think it over and come to the conclusion that it was a tragic accident.

Seeing how Brandon handled Adolin in OB, I would rationalize Dalinar having murderer Evi and torched the Rift is unlikely to matter to his character. Logically though, it should. In OB, Adolin speaks of how his mother was murdered to Kaladin and Shallan. He mentions how Sadeas has torched the Rift, how his father, overcome with grief and wounds, was unable to stop him... Adolin believes Sadeas is responsible for the Rift. Adolin believes his father would have stop him had he been able to.

How much of Adolin's pre-Tower betrayal hate towards Sadeas was fueled by thinking the man burned an entire town and his inhabitants?  

So while yeah, it can be argued Dalinar is "not really responsible for Evi being there when he ordered the Rift to be burned", it cannot be argued he is NOT responsible for the event. Realistically speaking, everything we know of Adolin ought to make him react really badly to those news. Narrative-wise it seems unlikely this will be an event for the mere reason Brandon has decided nothing would ever matter to Adolin by the choices he made in OB for his character.

4 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

This to me says that you don't need to be broken, you just need to be "open" for the nahel bound. Adolin has viewed himself with that blade so long and treated it as an extension of himself that I don't believe he will need to be "broken". 

The WoB states there are other ways to open one's mind to the Nahel Bond. I sincerely believe Lopen is one such case. My thoughts are to open a mind to the Nahel Bond, one has to want it, one has to seek it, one has to be willing to surrender to it. 

One cannot however accidentally form a bond with a dead-Blade just because "he's nice to it" and "he likes to talk to it". Adolin is not attempting to form a bond with Maya, he isn't trying to connect with her, he just wants to use her for what she is supposed to be used for. He respects her and he owes her his life. He isn't however purposefully seeking a Nahel Bond with her, he isn't "opening his spirit" in any visible way. 

Hence, if Maya is connecting with Adolin, it isn't because he has an "open-mind" on top of being near perfect, it has to be for the real reasons. I am also of the opinion having Adolin bond Maya just be being "so open" it works would be about the worst narrative choice. I mean, most readers are against Adolin becoming a Radiant in the first place, him becoming a Radiant out of being so perfect is magically works would just ruin the entire story, IMHO.

I also really don't get the plea for Adolin "not to be broken". The guy has been literally dismissed, criticized, ignored and openly hated by his father during his entire teenage years which came after a golden age period where Dalinar was the perfect father. This is called parental abuse. He's witnessed more people he cared for and tried to protect dying than Kaladin, including his own cousin. Kaladin is broken because he failed a handful of people: Adolin failed one thousand people. He's been giving everything he's got at everything possible occasion and yet this was not enough for a Nahel Bond. 

I mean, Brandon can continue to write Adolin as if nothing ever happened to him, as if he was the most resilient individual within the entire world, but at some point, a narrative has to be realistic. The argument Adolin is "not broken" and should "remain forever unbroken" doesn't exactly hold the road with the narrative we were given.

[stormlore]

I find it difficult to believe that people are calling Adolin a Mary Sue at this point, we haven't even seen him enough to judge. Wait until the end of book 5.

[Steeldancer he/him]

I also feel like people throw around "Mary Sue" to shove off any character they don't like. Adolin is not a Mary Sue. He doesn't just magically find a way, and have no character depth. He has issues, that while not as deep or as important of a focus as Shallan or Kaladin, make him more than just a flat character. 

[MonsterMetroid]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

One cannot however accidentally form a bond with a dead-Blade just because "he's nice to it" and "he likes to talk to it". Adolin is not attempting to form a bond with Maya, he isn't trying to connect with her, he just wants to use her for what she is supposed to be used for. He respects her and he owes her his life. He isn't however purposefully seeking a Nahel Bond with her, he isn't "opening his spirit" in any visible way. 

Hence, if Maya is connecting with Adolin, it isn't because he has an "open-mind" on top of being near perfect, it has to be for the real reasons. I am also of the opinion having Adolin bond Maya just be being "so open" it works would be about the worst narrative choice. I mean, most readers are against Adolin becoming a Radiant in the first place, him becoming a Radiant out of being so perfect is magically works would just ruin the entire story, IMHO.

I agree that it shouldn't be because "he is nice to it" or "he likes to talk to it". It is because he views it as a part of himself

I believe Adolin formed a bond with the blade cognitively, he views it as part of himself so much that it is so. The other things which you mentioned are just symptoms of the true cause.

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

While I don't necessarily disagree, as I've stated previously in the Mayalaran thread and quoted on the first page of this one, to say that Adolin isn't broken disregards everything we've learned of his life. 

He lost his mother as a teenager. He lost thousands of men many of which were friends at the Tower. The emotional roller coaster that was the four on one duel. The severe fear and paranoia he showed after Szeth's attack on Dalinar, pushing himself to the point of exhaustion to protect his father. He snapped enough to kill Sadeas due to his own emotional strain. 

Adolin is only unbroken when viewed in comparison to the main characters, which have been through such extremes that if their experiences were normal for Radiants, there would never have been Radiants in the thousands. 

Yeah I think we are both saying the same thing just differently. To me "broken" means that the person cannot function: some examples of this among the Radiants are Kalladin at various times who is saved be syl (like the chasm), Teft who turns to the moss and ruined his life nearly to death and doesn't feel human without it, Dalinar who turned to drink and could not function until the night mother, and eventually his nahel bond helped him through the tough times. These people could not function in normal everyday activities, but the nahel bond they formed helps them through their difficulties, which usually are still there but are now bearable.

So thats why I dont see Adolin breaking (unless shallan divorces him then I will revise this) he has been through quite the crap storm but he is still functioning and helps lift Shallan and Kalladin up the best he can. He is an anchor in the storm that never lets go. Yes I'm sure he has cracks but like that spear analogy it just shows that he is battle tested and shown not to break.

[Greywatch she/her]

Completely broken down is not the only way. The level that Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan have experienced is not the minimum requirement; they are main characters and their issues are likewise central to the story and personally devastating, but we've had plenty of side and interlude Radiant characters who don't go this far to qualify. There's Teft... but there's also Lopen. For example.

[Alderant she/her]

12 hours ago, maxal said:

I compared Adolin to Ron in response to another poster launching the comparison. I do agree Harry Potter and SA have a very different format and, as such, cannot be compared. I however strongly disagree with the idea Adolin is to SA what Ron was to Harry Potter for the mere reason Adolin actually is a viewpoint character, whereas Ron isn't. Obviously, the Harry Potter series was about... Harry and it narrated events happening to Harry. Ron and Hermione were the side-kicks which helped him navigate through the events, but he was the one things were happening to. Now, the major difference in between Adolin and Ron, apart from the viewpoint, is events are actually happening to Adolin.

• Adolin did murder Sadeas.
• Adolin do feel unworthy of his father's name.
• Adolin is the sole non-Radiant member of his family.
• Adolin does go through horrific events where people he cares for are brutally murdered.
• Adolin's childhood wasn't as perfect as all initially thought it was.

So all in all, events are happening to Adolin, to him and to no one else, but the narrative structure of SA is currently ignoring them. As such, while it is entirely true Adolin's purpose might be to "supplement" other characters narrative, the fact he was forced to face "significant events" make him more than a mere "minor supporting character". In other words, Adolin has outgrown the role the author first gave him by virtue of having been too central to the action. Now stuff has happened to the character, not broaching it, treating it as if it never happened is doing the narrative a great disservice.

Not every reader is agreeing with this, but as far as I am concerned, if a character is seen murdering another character, if this character is written has having issues, then I certainly expect those elements to matter in one way or another within the narrative. In OB, none which happened to Adolin mattered. The end result is Adolin has grown into a very frustrating character, not just because he isn't a main protagonist as some wish he were, but because he is basically one of the only character of importance the author seems resolute to force into a predefined role. We also have Navani who's being used as a supplement character, but unlike Adolin her narrative doesn't involve her doing or going through things, not significantly so, hence the absence of aftermath is expected, though many readers were disappointed not to read her reunion with Jasnah.

I agree with everything you said here.

Your points are actually what I was trying to address, and maybe was misunderstood here. Adolin is a viewpoint character, but as I said with epic fantasy writing, merely being a viewpoint character does not necessarily mean that you are a main character (according to the author). In Harry Potter, Harry is the main character--there's only one, and with the style it is written in, only main characters get viewpoints. Ron and Hermione are the sole secondary characters, with the rest of the cast being relegated to tertiary or lower priority within the story. In this style of fiction, generally all characters other than the main are viewed as supplementary, with only primary (main) and secondary characters usually getting resolution at the end of the series.

In SA, Adolin fills a similar priority role to Ron, but due to the stylistic differences (where characters other than main characters get viewpoints), he gets much more screen time. He is not a "minor supporting character," as you mention here, though neither I would argue is Ron. Adolin is a secondary character--I would argue that Navani, your other example, is actually of tertiary importance in SA. She has very few conflicts, very little development, and exists primarily as a character dependent on a main character's development for her own. Adolin is not written this way. He has actual arcs, albeit they are small. He has independent plots that are written, as opposed to Navani. However, as a secondary character his primary role is to augment and support the main characters and their plotlines and developments. He's not wholly dependent on a main character for his development--he's in this weird middle ground where he matters just enough to us to be important, but not quite enough to be fully developed as we would like.

I do agree that he had begun to outgrow his role as a secondary character during WoR. The murder of Sadeas was, at the time, a big deal. It was a cliffhanger ending for the character, and one that promised a lot. Unfortunately, it appears that to the author, the murder of Sadeas was much less important than it was written to be, and because of Adolin's secondary nature, the aftermath for Adolin is not as important as other events. This is why what happened to Adolin never really mattered in OB, because although he appeared to start outgrowing his role, in the author's eyes this was simply never the case. This is also why I argue that the whole Maya arc will either A) not be as important as some believe (because Adolin simply isn't an important enough character to the plot), or B ) the Maya resurrection idea will be a catalyst for something that happens later of more significance to the plot. I would have liked to see more--it just doesn't seem like Adolin is being written that way.

56 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I also feel like people throw around "Mary Sue" to shove off any character they don't like. Adolin is not a Mary Sue. He doesn't just magically find a way, and have no character depth. He has issues, that while not as deep or as important of a focus as Shallan or Kaladin, make him more than just a flat character.

A Mary Sue character is generally considered to be one that never does wrong. Wikipedia - " A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character." It's not that he magically finds a way and has no character depth, its just that he's seemingly perfect. Ewan McGregor's character in Down With Love begins very much as a Mary Sue character--he's a "ladies' man, man's man, man about town." Loved by all, admired by all, all women want him, etc. This is very much in line with how Adolin is described and treated within the story. He's the most elegible bachelor in Alethkar, he's extremely handsome, charming, the best duelist, and honorable to boot. He puts others first, sacrificing his own desires and insecurities for what is best for those he cares about. All the main characters, and many supporting charcters, like him. He instantly wins bridge four over. And, I mean, if the guy can murder one of the most important and powerful men in the Alethi kingdom and no one cares/he is congratulated for it, I would argue quite strongly that Adoliln is a Mary Sue character.

 

And again, to everyone involved, please remember that I actually like Adolin. I might seem hard on him, but I like him about as much as I like Kaladin.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Alderant

[Greywatch she/her]

Mary Sue is a made up term used to denigrate female self insert characters in fanfiction back in the 90s/early 2000s and ever since its inception, the definition has constantly shifted to accommodate whichever kind of character the speaker dislikes. It's an archaic term that has a hundred different definitions and really useless for explaining why somebody might dislike a character. It's definitely useless for defining an in-canon character written by the actual author. 

[Alderant she/her]

5 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Mary Sue is a made up term used to denigrate female self insert characters in fanfiction back in the 90s/early 2000s and ever since its inception, the definition has constantly shifted to accommodate whichever kind of character the speaker dislikes. It's an archaic term that has a hundred different definitions and really useless for explaining why somebody might dislike a character. It's definitely useless for defining an in-canon character written by the actual author. 

That is also a correct definition, though it existed prior to the "self-insertion" movement. With respect, however, the term originated in the 70s, and meant the definition I gave above. It was created because of Paula Smith's Lieutenant Mary Sue--it was a Star Trek fanfic about a character who was the youngest, brightest, and best in the intergalactic fleet. Just so you know.

[Greywatch she/her]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

That is also a correct definition, though it existed prior to the "self-insertion" movement. With respect, however, the term originated in the 70s, and meant the definition I gave above. It was created because of Paula Smith's Lieutenant Mary Sue--it was a Star Trek fanfic about a character who was the youngest, brightest, and best in the intergalactic fleet. Just so you know.

Who was a self insert.

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, Greywatch said:

Who was a self insert.

Not disagreeing with you there, but the original definition still stands in that it described a character who was seemingly perfect and could do no wrong. Over time however, its use did turn into the definition you described. I agree that the definition you used cannot be attributed to Adolin.

[Greywatch she/her]

Just now, Alderant said:

Not disagreeing with you there, but the original definition still stands in that it described a character who was seemingly perfect and could do no wrong. Over time however, its use did turn into the definition you described. I agree that the definition you used cannot be attributed to Adolin.

It was and has been.historically used for self inserts above all others. It started to be misapplied to female characters in their own canon but that came later.

[Alderant she/her]

2 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

It was and has been.historically used for self inserts above all others. It started to be misapplied to female characters in their own canon but that came later.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that point--but literally every time I have heard it used in context to a character, it has been applied in the context I have defined. Maybe that's because I don't read a lot of fanfiction (that stuff gets weird), so I didn't hear of the latter definition until later, maybe not, but if you want to take such a hard stance and say that only your definition is correct, then I am not going to try to keep arguing with you about it.

[Greywatch she/her]

13 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I'm not disagreeing with you on that point--but literally every time I have heard it used in context to a character, it has been applied in the context I have defined. Maybe that's because I don't read a lot of fanfiction (that stuff gets weird), so I didn't hear of the latter definition until later, maybe not, but if you want to take such a hard stance and say that only your definition is correct, then I am not going to try to keep arguing with you about it.

My stance is that as part of the fanfiction community since the early 2000s, I feel quite confident in saying that it was originally used in the context of fanfiction and the devolution of its use for characters in original published fiction came much after the term had been established - usually also as a comment on the quality of the writing, since comparisons to self-insert fanfiction has never been considered a compliment.

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, Greywatch said:

My stance is that as part of the fanfiction community since the early 2000s, I feel quite confident in saying that it was originally used in the context of fanfiction and the devolution of its use for characters in original published fiction came much after the term had been established - usually also as a comment on the quality of the writing, since comparisons to self-insert fanfiction has never been considered a compliment.

I understand that stance. I can relate with that stance. But as I said, the term originated in the 70s, and described an entire genre of narrative fanfiction-esque stories ("Mary Sue stories"), not the 90s or 2000s. When the fanfiction community blossomed with the advent of fanfiction websites, of course the word would have taken on new meaning and drastically. But I heard the term when I was a child, before I even knew about internet fanfiction, and used in reference to characters from published movies and books, so take that for what you will.

[Calderis he/him]

@MonsterMetroid that's exactly my issue with people saying Adolin isn't broken.

Broken does not mean non-functional. It is the exact same Cosmere mechanism as snapping in Mistborn. It's why I said there could never have been thousands if Radiants under that criteria. 

Being broken, in my view, only requires having experienced something emotionally severe enough to have changed you as a person, and it doesn't even have to be negative. 

From the HoA Annotations. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e8025

Quote

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

In my view the only way to be completely unbroken is to have lived an exceedingly privileged/sheltered life in which hardship, loss, and even extreme joy in contrast, are absent. 

Everyone experiences things that break them. Life has hardships for almost everyone, and we are changed by those experiences. We are shaken and left unable to view things in the same way we did before something happened that stole our innocence or naivety. 

Adolin has been through more than enough in his life. He has mental scars, even if he doesn't show them outwardly. I have no doubt there are Spiritual cracks that coincide with those scars. 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Calderis

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I wouldn't say that everyone is broken but I agree that broken doesn't have to mean non-functional and I think it's plausible that Adolin is spiritually cracked to the degree necessary to form a bond.

Edited January 24, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[BraidedRose]

One of the things that is fascinating about this discussion (and any discussion of Adolin really) is that if we take Brandon at his word, Adolin was supposed to be a "what you see is what you get" character and yet clearly he isn't since the readers see so many different interpretations. 

The trouble I have when people argue that Adolin is broken because of his difficult childhood is that we see his perspective and I don't really see any evidence of it (unless we are supposed to believe Adolin is as unreliable a narrator as Shallan is, which I doubt). I think Adolin's childhood was damaging enough that he could have been broken by it, but it doesn't seem to have happened that way so far. I agree that broken doesn't necessarily have to mean not functioning, but Adolin doesn't even seem to approach that, he goes through some terrible things and really seems to shrug it off for the most part. So I think if Adolin is going to form a Nahel bond there are two options for it to seem justified to those of us that are not buying that he is broken so far.

1. There are a few things potentially on the horizon that could lead to Adolin's breaking on screen, including the truth about Evi's death, potential breakdown of his marriage to Shallan, repressed guilt over his murder of Sadeas. We could see any or all of these things play out and actually see the "breaking" of a character in a way that we haven't so far. 

2. Adolin could be someone that forms a bond by being "open" rather than "broken" as @MonsterMetroid pointed out. I agree with @maxal that if this is the route it goes then we need to see more effort and intention on Adolin's part than just accidentally doing the right thing. I kind of prefer this option but I'm not someone who insists that Adolin should stay unbroken just because he is a nice guy. I want there to be stakes for him in this story too. 

Maybe neither of these things will happen because Adolin really is a secondary character and Brandon doesn't intend for him to have a complex arc. But I hope that Brandon sees that Adolin has evolved beyond his original intentions and gives him a meaningful storyline. Part of me questions that Adolin was really supposed to be so simple in the first place. Why make him a viewpoint character and give him as much page time as he has gotten for a secondary character if that was the case?

 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I can definitely see Adolin as the sort of person who would form a bond based on openess to it.

[Alderant she/her]

10 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

Why make him a viewpoint character and give him as much page time as he has gotten for a secondary character if that was the case?

I tried to explain this above. It’s got to do with the way epic fantasy in general is written. Secondary characters in epic fantasy are not just support for the main characters, as in other genres. They are plot devices through which our understanding of the world, the plots, the stakes, and the main characters themselves are expounded upon. Lift for example, though a main character in the back 5, is serving as a secondary character in the first 5 and aside from the novella, has some very small character arcs.

In epic fantasy, it's perfectly suitable for secondary and even tertiary characters to have viewpoints, as they immerse us more fully into what is going on. Unfortunately, this is also why epic fantasy books usually have a HUGE cast of characters.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Alderant

[BraidedRose]

Quote

4 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I tried to explain this above. It’s got to do with the way epic fantasy in general is written. Secondary characters in epic fantasy are not just support for the main characters, as in other genres. They are plot devices through which our understanding of the world, the plots, the stakes, and the main characters themselves are expounded upon. Lift for example, though a main character in the back 5, is serving as a secondary character in the first 5 and aside from the novella, has some very small character arcs.

 

Oh, I do get your point. I have read enough epic fantasy that I do understand the distinction. But SA seems to actually have relatively few viewpoint characters (especially if we exclude the one off interludes) and Adolin has way more than any other secondary character such as Navani or Jasnah. And if those are tertiary and Adolin is secondary than who else would we consider secondary?

My point was pretty minor I guess. Maybe there really is no interesting reason for Adolin to have so many viewpoints for a secondary character, it’s just a hunch I have that maybe he will end up going in some surprising direction. 

[MonsterMetroid]

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Completely broken down is not the only way. The level that Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan have experienced is not the minimum requirement; they are main characters and their issues are likewise central to the story and personally devastating, but we've had plenty of side and interlude Radiant characters who don't go this far to qualify. There's Teft... but there's also Lopen. For example.

 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@MonsterMetroid that's exactly my issue with people saying Adolin isn't broken.

Broken does not mean non-functional. It is the exact same Cosmere mechanism as snapping in Mistborn. It's why I said there could never have been thousands if Radiants under that criteria. 

Being broken, in my view, only requires having experienced something emotionally severe enough to have changed you as a person, and it doesn't even have to be negative. 

I mean once again we are basically just arguing over what the definition of broken is. I agree with you Greywatch they don't have to be completely non-functional Lopen is a great example (though he might be broken in the head a bit  ) I guess what I'm trying to say is that the definition of broken to brandon and to people on roshar and to each one of us could be completely different.

I do believe that there has to be cracks in the soul, but having cracks i wouldnt neccessarily say in and of itself makes you broken.

I feel like we are arguing over the definition of chair and whether a three legged stool is considered a chair. We all agree we can sit on it. But we might not all agree on if it is a chair.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It is the exact same Cosmere mechanism as snapping in Mistborn

I am interested on how you came to this conclusion though Calderis?

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by MonsterMetroid

[Alderant she/her]

1 minute ago, BraidedRose said:

Oh, I do get your point. I have read enough epic fantasy that I do understand the distinction. But SA seems to actually have relatively few viewpoint characters (especially if we exclude the one off interludes) and Adolin has way more than any other secondary character such as Navani or Jasnah. And if those are tertiary and Adolin is secondary than who else would we consider secondary?

My point was pretty minor I guess. Maybe there really is no interesting reason for Adolin to have so many viewpoints for a secondary character, it’s just a hunch I have that maybe he will end up going in some surprising direction. 

That's true. And that's actually why I think he's being set up for a big fall--we've had him as a pretty big viewpoint character, we all like him, but he's not getting much development. Surprising direction in store? Definitely. Will it be controversial? More than likely.

And I would consider Jasnah secondary and Navani to be tertiary. Jasnah has had some noticeable growth as a character in Oathbringer, she brings a lot to the plot table (even though she has only a handful of viewpoint scenes), plus she's a main on the back 5. I would also consider as secondary right now probably Teft (he's had multiple viewpoint scenes in WoR and OB, and his character is growing and developing quite well) and Szeth, probably. I think they're more akin to Adolin's priority level than Navani is. Though others may feel differently.

[BraidedRose]

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3 minutes ago, Alderant said:

That's true. And that's actually why I think he's being set up for a big fall--we've had him as a pretty big viewpoint character, we all like him, but he's not getting much development. Surprising direction in store? Definitely. Will it be controversial? More than likely.

And I would consider Jasnah secondary and Navani to be tertiary. Jasnah has had some noticeable growth as a character in Oathbringer, she brings a lot to the plot table (even though she has only a handful of viewpoint scenes), plus she's a main on the back 5. I would also consider as secondary right now probably Teft (he's had multiple viewpoint scenes in WoR and OB, and his character is growing and developing quite well) and Szeth, probably. I think they're more akin to Adolin's priority level than Navani is. Though others may feel differently.

 

I agree with your assessment, both about Adolin being set up for some kind of fall and with the secondary/tertiary distinctions. And to further my point (maybe more than it deserves), Adolin so far does have far more viewpoints than Jasnah and Szeth, both of whom we know will get flashbacks so will presumably increase significantly at some point. Again, maybe there’s no particular reason for that but it does seem a little odd since we know Adolin is not one of the ten flashback characters and is considered secondary.

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, BraidedRose said:

I agree with your assessment, both about Adolin being set up for some kind of fall and with the secondary/tertiary distinctions. And to further my point (maybe more than it deserves), Adolin so far does have far more viewpoints than Jasnah and Szeth, both of whom we know will get flashbacks so will presumably increase significantly at some point. Again, maybe there’s no particular reason for that but it does seem a little odd since we know Adolin is not one of the ten flashback characters and is considered secondary.

Oh I think there is a reason for it. It's just not a reason most would like. It's not so odd if you think about it from the fall standpoint.