[OB] The Dagger

[insert_anagram_here]

 

On 11/28/2017 at 6:42 AM, Mahoka said:

Now, the Honorblades were invested with Honor,  which binds things, allowing surgebinding. An Odiumblade would be invested with the void, which draws things in.

I love this approach for some reason. Basically it simplifies what is the difference between the two Shards, and possibly why Odium is unable to fully manifest in Roshar. Maybe he is afraid of being binded instead of drawing the Investiture into himself.

On 11/28/2017 at 7:06 AM, Sprendiferous said:

I think the fact that Moash, a human free from Odium's direct influence, was required to commit the murder is very significant. Great pains seem to have been taken to cultivate Moash to be favorable to their cause yet free from any compromising of free will.

It could be a test for Moash to make sure that he isn't a 'son of Honour', that Honour's investiture cannot reside inside him, anymore.

On 11/28/2017 at 5:52 AM, Sprendiferous said:

Lastly Odium and the Fused seem to have made a very special effort not to coerce or influence Moash in any way. Possibly a stipulation of the oathpact? Possibly a way for Odium to free himself outside of the Champion route that Dalinar has offered?

Or it could be as it was said earlier, the Fused were afraid of the blade itself. (coincidental Joe Ambercombie reference)

On 11/28/2017 at 7:29 AM, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The Heralds were not free of the Oathpact, despite what they believed. The Oathpact still existed and even with the Everstorm, may have served to bind Odium if the Heralds returned to damnation. 

I agree with you that Moash wielding the blade is significant, but I think the gemstone ripped the piece of investiture that made Jezrien a Herald from his soul, and he is truly dead and gone. 

So my theory is that Honour's Investiture is what made the Heralds come back to life, basically binding their presence from the Spiritual realm back to the Physical one. (like Perpendicularity ?)

On 11/28/2017 at 5:52 AM, Sprendiferous said:

I do believe that the sapphire is the most important element to the weapon.

So the saphire can trap Jezrien's Honour essense, much like spren are trapped in fabrials and Unmade in perfect gems. Sadly, that means that Jezrien is now dead

From the Endnote of The Way of Kings we have the rest of the essence information linked to this.

On 11/28/2017 at 4:53 AM, WalksIntoMordor said:

Odium will create (or at least try to create) nine others, each with the proper polestone.

So yes, I agree that this will be his course of action from now on, probably by combining all essenses into one weapon and/or person (Champion of Nine Shadows?). Not sure about combining all 10 essenses though. That could possibly have the opposite effect to what Odium wants. (Honour's resurrection maybe? haha.. I only dare to hope)

[Cenanin]

On 11/27/2017 at 6:53 PM, WalksIntoMordor said:

As a note, I had this theory before listening to Shardcast's reactions to the book, but credit where credit is due - they pointed out a colorscheme element I missed, and reminded me of perfect gems.

So the Dagger: it was made of a white-gold metal (colors we see associated with Odium in his appearances, as Shardcast pointed out), with a sapphire on the end, and was used to kill the Herald Jezrien.  The manner of death, it is pointed out in the book, felt to Jez like it was taking him somewhere.  It wasn't a normal death - somehow done in a way that wouldn't allow him to go back to Damnation and lock it with the Oathpact again (or so we can infer, since it was Odium's idea).

The knife itself is strangely Invested - it managed to leave a smoking, blackened wound, like a certain sword we know, though unlike Nightblood it doesn't seem to feed on the user's life force.  And, after the kill, it caused the gem to glow.  However, the kill wasn't instant, the way a shardblade or Nightblood cut would be.  It took a few moments for him to die, enough for a short dialogue between Jez and Moash.

So, I have a few theories.  Some of these may not add up, but these are my theories all the same:

1. The gold-white metal is, as Shardcast theorizes due to the color similarities, Odium's godmetal.  This may explain the smoking as well - invested metal does odd things to victims.

2. The knife is a variant hemalurgical spike, used to draw Jezrien's essence, or some part of it, out of him and into the gemstone (possibly whatever made him a Herald/bound him to the Oathpact - Brandon has said that hemalurgy is really flexible and can be used to steal almost anything).

3. There will be ten knives total - one for each Herald.  This is based on the sapphire - a stone associated with Jezrien and the Windrunners founded in his honor.  Odium will create (or at least try to create) nine others, each with the proper polestone.

4. The hardest sell/biggest leap: this hemalurgy is different than Scadrial's.  Normal hemalurgical spikes leak power outside a host, though blood can significantly slow the leak down.  Something about this version, though, allows the power to last longer.  Perhaps it is because it isn't directly fueled by Ruin, thus changing its nature somewhat; or, perhaps, because the gem on the pommel is a perfect gemstone, and whatever was stolen isn't stored inside the dagger (as hemalurgy usually stores in the spike) but rather in a gem that can't leak it out into the world.

As I said, these are just theories, but I am curious as to others' thoughts - what do you think was up with the dagger?

The fused wouldn't do it Moash said. I don't think they could. I think it HAD to be done by a human by intent. Odium probably had these daggers for a long time waiting for a human to use. Why have Moash do it? Why couldn't/wouldn't a fused do it? They know Jez was completely insane. Anyone could have done it, why did it have to be Moash? Could it be he still has some kind of a link to Kaladin, and it had to be a windrunner or at least a windrunner squire to kill Jez? Was it all the knife? I don't think it was "just the knife." In fact the more I think about it, the more I find that less plausible. 

[Shardmancer he/him]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but maybe this is similar to the unmade and the gem used to trap it inside. Jez is human (the greatest human in fact) and to trap something you need to "understand it" maybe that's why Moash has to do it. They sphere is much like the one Dalinar used to trap The Thrill; Moash uses this special Dagger (with gemstone) related directly to the Windrunners to trap Jez - them both being human is why he can do it. Now that his soul or essence or whatever is trapped he does not go to damnation and repeat the cycle.

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 12/13/2017 at 1:54 AM, WestTea said:

If I remember correctly the stormfather mentions that Heralds could do surgebinding because it was part of what they were and they did not receive it through the honorblades.

Then the Stormfather is mistaken.

Quote

Rybal

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their [Honor]Blades, and if not are they under the same restrictions the Radiants are?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] I will say that the Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you are familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do, but they are incapable of the powers you are familiar with throughout the book.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

On 12/15/2017 at 11:18 AM, Shardmancer said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned but maybe this is similar to the unmade and the gem used to trap it inside. Jez is human (the greatest human in fact) and to trap something you need to "understand it" maybe that's why Moash has to do it. They sphere is much like the one Dalinar used to trap The Thrill; Moash uses this special Dagger (with gemstone) related directly to the Windrunners to trap Jez - them both being human is why he can do it.

I think this is an interesting point, I think that there may be something to the human vehicle using the knife needing to exhibit an intent opposite to the Divine attributes of the Herald that is killed with the Odium blade. that instead of just understanding them like a person capturing an unmade needs to, the herald killer has to represent the opposite of their divine attributes. Moash abandons bridge 4, and Kaladin (the opposite of protecting) and he betrays them all (the opposite of leading).

When Leshwi the fused comes to find Moash while he is breaking up Kholinar palace to ask him to kill a god, there is the following exchange:

Quote

(Leshwi) "Your passion does you credit."

"I have no passion. Just numbness."

"You have given him your pain. He will return it, human, when you need it."

That would be fine, as long as he could forget the look of betrayal he'd seen in Kaladin's eyes.

The thing that has broken Moash is that he chose the wrong path, he chose his own personal vengeance over the ideals and principles of his friends, and especially Kaladin.

I think that Moash's dark charcter arc will widen to encompass all of the inverse intents of the Heralds, and that he will be the main vessel for Killing the remaining Heralds. There is this bit during that same scene (chapter 121 Ideals) where Hnanan, a fused  equivalent of the light-eyes is talking to Moash:

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"I have called myself wise," she said, "and felt pride for Leshwi at picking you out. For years, my brother, sister, and I will boast of having chosen you." She looked to him. "Odium has a command for you. This is rare for a human."

This heavily implies that Odium has picked him out as being a very special tool.

I think that over the next 2 books we will see Vyre (Moash's godkiller name) pick off the remaining heralds, other than Taln and Ash.

I think it's going to be particularly dramatic when Vyre takes out Ishar and Nale, because they believe that they are on Team Odium, but Moash has no qualms about betraying those he is working with.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

If the fused can return via the ever storm, could that allow a slain herald return in a similar manner?