Calderis he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Glys was corrupted by Odium's investiture, but not by Odium. He is a Truthwatcher spren, "enlightened" by Sja-anat. What that means towards his loyalties is unknown. But just like we have Malata serving Taravangian, the source of the investiture doesn't tell us much. "odiumspren" implies loyalty. We have no reason to think that Glys is loyal to any shard. 2
digitalbusker he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 1 minute ago, IronBars said: Red investiture signifies one shard's investiture being "corrupted" by another's. Which is why Glys is red. Not that Odium isn't involved, in all the cases you cite. He is. It's just that Glys's color doesn't necessarily indicate that he's controlled by or loyal to Odium. That above quote made it seem you were implying glys wasnt corrupted by odium, unless i somehow misread it, but its how it seemed, and since cultivation is the other shard on roshar seemed you implied she corrupted say a spren from honour. Fair enough if i misread it I see where the misstep is now. When I granted you Odium's involvement in "all the cases you cite," I meant that to include Glys. Glys is definitely carrying around some of Odium's investiture. Sorry for being all haughty above. My argument is that Glys was until recently a standard member of whatever you call the kind of spren that bonds Truthwatchers (carrying whatever mixture of Honor and Cultivation is standard for his type), but was"corrupted" by Sja-Anat, which turned him red and changed the powers he can grant to Renarin. What it does not seem to have done, however, is make Glys switch sides. Is Glys still a Truthwatcher spren? Are the corrupted pain spren in Kholinar still pain spren? It seems like a philosophical question more than anything. Which is why I say the question of whether Renarin is a Truthwatcher is complicated.
IronBars he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, MountainKing said: So corruption works, by forcing your influence on another shard's investiture. They can do that because all investiture used to be assigned to Adonsalium, but now it's not. But because the spren is sapient, even if Odium's "hacks" in to his investiture, he doesn't have to follow Odium, but Odium can influence him, and he has access to Odium's version of the shards. Yes so going by this glys is an odiun spren, right? And renarin cant be a truthwatcher correct ? Is it said anywhere what type of spren glys even actually used be ? People assigned renarin to truthwatcher based on TWoK/WoR, where renarin saw the future, but no indication truthwatchers could do that is there ? 2 hours ago, digitalbusker said: I see where the misstep is now. When I granted you Odium's involvement in "all the cases you cite," I meant that to include Glys. Glys is definitely carrying around some of Odium's investiture. Sorry for being all haughty above. Its fine no worries i read them as seperate. 2 hours ago, digitalbusker said: My argument is that Glys was until recently a standard member of whatever you call the kind of spren that bonds Truthwatchers (carrying whatever mixture of Honor and Cultivation is standard for his type), but was"corrupted" by Sja-Anat, which turned him red and changed the powers he can grant to Renarin. What it does not seem to have done, however, is make Glys switch sides. Is Glys still a Truthwatcher spren? Are the corrupted pain spren in Kholinar still pain spren? It seems like a philosophical question more than anything. Which is why I say the question of whether Renarin is a Truthwatcher is complicated. Thats my issue, we dont know what kind of spren glys was before so and as i said above renarin was put in truthwatcher based on the assumption that order could see the future, because it fit the name and renarins abilities, we now know that isnt the case so rather then being complicated i think its simple - renarin isnt a truthwatcher in any sense (with the info we currently have) i dont see how anyone can argue that. Edited February 18, 2018 by IronBars
digitalbusker he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, IronBars said: Thats my issue, we dont know what kind of spren glys was before so and as i said above renarin was put in truthwatcher based on the assumption that order could see the future, because it fit the name and renarins abilities, we now know that isnt the case so rather then being complicated i think its simple - renarin isnt a truthwatcher in any sense (with the info we currently have) i dont see how anyone can argue that. Renarin definitely has Progression, and it seems to work normally, so we assume that Glys started out as a spren from an order with Progression. Wyndle is pretty clear that no other Cultivationspren have been sent to bond, so that rules them out, and Truthwatchers are the other order with Progression.
MountainKing Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Corruption spren should look close enough to the original that you know what they were originally were. He matches the description of Ym's and Stump's spren except he was colored red.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, IronBars said: People assigned renarin to truthwatcher based on TWoK/WoR, where renarin saw the future, but no indication truthwatchers could do that is there ? Oh no? Quote "Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this." 30-20 a particularly small emerald 2 minutes ago, IronBars said: Yes so going by this Glys is an Odiumspren, right? You are generalizing, when not all Spren are the same. Take.. Spark, or Ivory. If Spark is 60/40 in favor of Cultivation's Investiture, does that make them a Cultivation Spren? Then they get corrupted, and the ratio is 30/20/50 in favor of Odium's Investiture, does that suddenly make them an Odiumspren? Ooh, here's a better example. As an Honorspren, Syl is probably 90/10 in favor of Honor's Investiture. Say her corrupted ratio is 45/5/50 in favor of Odium's Investiture. Does that make her an Odiumspren now too? A case could be made that a corrupted Ashspren could be "of Odium," but you can't make that argument with a corrupted Honorspren. We don't know the ratio for Truthwatcher Spren, so an argument can't be made either way. 8 minutes ago, IronBars said: We don't know what kind of Spren Glys was before so and as I said above Renarin was put in Truthwatcher based on the assumption that order could see the future, because it fit the name and Renarin's abilities. We don't know the type of Spren that Truthwatcher's Bond. We do know that Glys appears to be a corrupted version of a Truthwatcher Spren. That isn't up for debate. Quote Glys: "...bright red, shimmering like the heat of a mirage. A crystalline structure, like a snowflake, though it dripped upward toward the ceiling." Truthwatcher Spren: "the shimmer you see on a wall when you shine light through a crystal." He has Progression, which is limited to Edgedancers and Truthwatchers on the KR side. Wyndle(Edgedancer) is a vine, not a crystal, and he doesn't glow either. If Kaladin bonded with a corrupted Syl, still had normal Gravitation, and a new power theorycrafters could easily assign to Adhesion, would you consider him as a Windrunner? 4
IronBars he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, digitalbusker said: Renarin definitely has Progression, and it seems to work normally, so we assume that Glys started out as a spren from an order with Progression. Wyndle is pretty clear that no other Cultivationspren have been sent to bond, so that rules them out, and Truthwatchers are the other order with Progression. He could have progression from its odiumness like being able to see the future tho, couldnt he ? 1 hour ago, MountainKing said: Corruption spren should look close enough to the original that you know what they were originally were. He matches the description of Ym's and Stump's spren except he was colored red. Does he ? "The red spren rising from renarin - like a snowflake made of crystal and light" OB page 1097 in my copy. "A spren rose from his back, bright red, shimmering like the heat of a mirage a crystalline structure like a snowflake though it dripped light upward toward tge ceiling" In her pouch she carried a sketch of the proper spren of the truthwatchers, and this was something different" page 1085 my copy of OB. Seems to me jasnah would no if what you said there was correct 1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said: Oh no? No. 1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said: You are generalizing, when not all Spren are the same. Take.. Spark, or Ivory. If Spark is 60/40 in favor of Cultivation's Investiture, does that make them a Cultivation Spren? Then they get corrupted, and the ratio is 30/20/50 in favor of Odium's Investiture, does that suddenly make them an Odiumspren? Ooh, here's a better example. As an Honorspren, Syl is probably 90/10 in favor of Honor's Investiture. Say her corrupted ratio is 45/5/50 in favor of Odium's Investiture. Does that make her an Odiumspren now too? I dont get your point here, if a spren is 60% odium, 10% honour and 30% cultivation then yes its an odium spren. 1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said: If Kaladin bonded with a corrupted Syl, still had normal Gravitation, and a new power theorycrafters could easily assign to Adhesion, would you consider him as a Windrunner? No because he isnt one, he would be more like a fused who has similiar abilities to a windrunner (dont know there name) then a windrunner Edited February 18, 2018 by IronBars
Greywatch she/her Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 If Glys is a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, it follows that Renarin is a kind of Truthwatcher, even if a corrupted one.
IronBars he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, Greywatch said: If Glys is a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, it follows that Renarin is a kind of Truthwatcher, even if a corrupted one. I disagree on this. From OB i assume there is 10 types of fused same as there are 10 heralds, (ones similiar powers to kaladin/lift so safe to assume they match up to other 8 heralds in my opinion) they share simularities with eachother ie there powers/surges So i think renarin is the fused equivalent of a truthwatcher if indeed glys is a corrupted truthwatcher spren. Which would make renarin a completly different thing to a truthwatcher
MountainKing Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Quote Glys is still a truthwatcher spren even if he's corrupted.
digitalbusker he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 We don't know that Fused have two surges a piece. So far we've seen one per Fused.
Calderis he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, IronBars said: From OB i assume there is 10 types of fused same as there are 10 heralds, (ones similiar powers to kaladin/lift so safe to assume they match up to other 8 heralds in my opinion) they share simularities with eachother ie there powers/surges There are 9 according to Moash, and this fits with there being 9 Unmade. And as Busker said, we've only seen any of the Fused use one surge at a time. Edited February 18, 2018 by Calderis 1
IronBars he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 15 minutes ago, digitalbusker said: We don't know that Fused have two surges a piece. So far we've seen one per Fused. Ya thats true but stand to reason they also have 2 imo but ya might only have one 7 minutes ago, Calderis said: There are 9 according to Moash, and this fits with there being 9 Unmade. And as Busker said, we've only seen any if the Fused use one surge at a time. I dont think the fused are linked to the unmade the way radiants are to hearlds, im open to be corrected on that though.
Calderis he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 Mentioning this here just because it bears thinking about. We don't even know that the Fused are using "Odium's versions" of the surges. On the voidbinding chart in tWoK, the radial symmetry of the surge glyphs is changed, and considering we have confirmation that Renarin is voidbinding, the surges should function differently. His version of illumination is very different than Shallan's after all. Because of this, I don't believe that the Fused are voidbinding, but are using a hacked version of surgebinding. I also believe they only have access to one surge, because the surge comes from the nature of the bond they have. Surgebinders bond with a spren, two parties, two surges. The Fused have no spren beyond their own Cognitive Shadow inhabiting a stolen body. One party, one surge. That last bit is admittedly wild speculation, but until we see a Fused use a second surge, I'm holding to it. 1
IronBars he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, Calderis said: Mentioning this here just because it bears thinking about. We don't even know that the Fused are using "Odium's versions" of the surges. On the voidbinding chart in tWoK, the radial symmetry of the surge glyphs is changed, and considering we have confirmation that Renarin is voidbinding, Do you have a link for that chart ? Dont remember seeing that in tWoK
Calderis he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, IronBars said: Do you have a link for that chart ? Dont remember seeing that in tWoK Second picture in this link
IronBars he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 25 minutes ago, Calderis said: Mentioning this here just because it bears thinking about. We don't even know that the Fused are using "Odium's versions" of the surges. On the voidbinding chart in tWoK, the radial symmetry of the surge glyphs is changed, and considering we have confirmation that Renarin is voidbinding, the surges should function differently. His version of illumination is very different than Shallan's after all. Thanks for the link in the previous post. About the comment above after WoR release brandon said we hadnt seen voidbinding, since the release of OB has he said if we have seen it ? Besides from renarin
Calderis he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 20 minutes ago, IronBars said: Thanks for the link in the previous post. About the comment above after WoR release brandon said we hadnt seen voidbinding, since the release of OB has he said if we have seen it ? Besides from renarin Not that I'm aware of. The only real input on what voidbinding is is from Argent, and they discuss Renarin, but move on to voidbinding. Quote Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Is that what voidbinding is? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. source I personally think that, whether it's powered by Stormlight, as is Renarin's case because of a corrupted spren, or Voidlight as I think would be the normal way of things (whatever that ends up being), that it will be different abilities. Primarily because of those altered glyphs.
IronBars he/him Posted February 18, 2018 Posted February 18, 2018 15 minutes ago, Calderis said: Not that I'm aware of. The only real input on what voidbinding is is from Argent, and they discuss Renarin, but move on to voidbinding. I personally think that, whether it's powered by Stormlight, as is Renarin's case because of a corrupted spren, or Voidlight as I think would be the normal way of things (whatever that ends up being), that it will be different abilities. Primarily because of those altered glyphs. Voidlight is what we see the fused use id guess, maybe they only use one surge because are new to the bodies and after time will gain the ability to use more ?
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