theory [OB] I think, Shallan is being manipulated by Odium/Ashertmarn...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, emailanimal said:

If Rayse had access to the content and the context of the conversation Shallan had with Hoid, Rayse would have little doubt about who is talking to Shallan. 

We don't know how much he got.

[emailanimal he/him]

Just now, SLNC said:

We don't know how much he got.

But you are making the assumption that he got enough to mimic Wit's voice and send a message to Shallan.  You cannot really have it both ways.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

But you are making the assumption that he got enough to mimic Wit's voice and send a message to Shallan.

Voice memory is a big part of how we humans recognize persons, so I wouldn't be surprised, that he'd able to get Wit's voice from Shallan's mind. He probably got whatever Shallan decided to pick up and remember, which will probably be just the gist of it. Find yourself, forgive yourself, be yourself. That is what he is turning around.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[emailanimal he/him]

Just now, SLNC said:

He probably got whatever Shallan decided to pick up and remember, which will probably be just the gist of it. Find yourself, forgive yourself, be yourself. That is what he is turning around.

The explanation that Shallan's subconscious has chosen Wit's voice as a conduit of the message is simpler and requires fewer complicated assumptions.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

The explanation that Shallan's subconscious has chosen Wit's voice as a conduit of the message is simpler and requires fewer complicated assumptions.

Another question, if that is the case, why did Brandon take to deliberate care to clarify, that the melding creates a revealing connection between the individuals, which is what I am basing this on?

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[emailanimal he/him]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Another question, if that is the case, why did Brandon take to deliberate care to clarify, that the melding creates a revealing connection between the individuals?

Because this is something Shallan has a big problem with regardless of whether Odium is doing a man-in-the-middle attack on her.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, emailanimal said:

Because this is something Shallan has a big problem with regardless of whether Odium is doing a man-in-the-middle attack on her.

That is the context for her fear, Brandon doesn't just add such information as fluff.

[emailanimal he/him]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

That is the context for her fear, Brandon doesn't just add such information as fluff.

Your theory begs more questions than it answers. To me, this means, it is probably not correct.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, emailanimal said:

Your theory begs more questions than it answers. To me, this means, it is probably not correct.

And 'Shallan's subconcious used Wit's voice as a conduit' doesn't?

Mine atleast has some textual base, while you just don't want to acknowledge, that Odium just might have not recognized Wit as Hoid through the filter of Shallan's mind. The important part is what Shallan perceives, because that is what can be used to plant different thoughts in her mind.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[Calderis he/him]

I find it hard to credit that Odium could recognize the content of what Wit said to Shallan, and not recognize the speaker. The conversation they had was... Not the most subtle version of Hoid we've ever seen. There are not many beings old enough to have been old when the Heralds were babes. 

It could be Shallan's subconcious. It could actually be Wit. It could be something none of us have thought of. 

Off topic, I will say that the tone of the conversation has reached a point that this could go south rather quickly. Let's try to keep it civil. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Calderis

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The conversation they had was... Not the most subtle version of Hoid we've ever seen. There are not many beings old enough to have been old when the Heralds were babes. 

... but they basically talked about an old Rosharan children's story, interpreted it and Wit gave Shallan some life advice. I don't see how this could reveal Wit as Hoid.

Regarding the tone, you're right and I'm sorry, but that is how I react, when I feel like I'm being pushed into a corner.

[Calderis he/him]

@SLNC the majority of the conversation I agree with you. There's that whole section though where Shallan asked Hoid if he was a Herald... I don't see that fading from her  mind all that quickly. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

the majority of the conversation I agree with you. There's that whole section though where Shallan asked Hoid if he was a Herald... I don't see that fading from her  mind all that quickly. 

That is true, but that was a while before that. Not in that specific conversation... I think, that if Odium did get this access through the connection, of which we know that it only exists, but not what it completely entails, would search for some vulnerability to exploit. When Shallan had the connection with Re-Shephir, she only got a short glimpse of her most recent severe memory too...That she once was imprisoned by a Lightweaver, which she used to push against Re-Shephir and bring her to flee. I could see the same have happened in regard to Shallan's mind and added to that the recent memory of the conversation with Wit, which was just a few hours old.

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

If as you assume Odium got that much out of her, it wouldn't be a stretch at all to link her state to the one order that would be deeply vulnerable to such disorders, yet later he sends his minions to search for an Elsecaller and an inkspren, which is what his spies in Urithiru would have told him about the redhaired Radiant. I think Odium would put more stock with his own conclusions than hearsay.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Darvys said:

If as you assume Odium got that much out of her, it wouldn't be a stretch at all to link her state to the one order that would be deeply vulnerable to such disorders

Why are the Lightweavers considered to be deeply vulnerable to dissociative disorders? All we know is that they were mainly comprised of artists and people with mnemonic abilities. It is not like all Windrunners were depressed wretches like Kaladin too... As far as we know Shallan's condition is a unique thing to her.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

Crosspost from SLA thread: 

I was thinking about this and trying to think about how it might work. The biggest point (in my opinion anyway) in it's favour is the telepathic aspect. It's biggest flaw is that the statements made by Wit in the scene when Shallan melds with Ashertman may not contradict what Wit says in the first place.

Ok, so I was initially sceptical of this idea when first raised because I did not see that there was a significant difference between Wi't's first asdvice, and the second. That said, that change from mind - which very much reflects what is happening to Shallan (she has a surgebinded assisted OSDD) to emotions which is something very much associated with Odium. I still see how both could be the advice viewed through different lenses, but the more I have read about DID and OSDD (both formerly called multiple personality disorder) the more I think Wit's first piece of advice (which is definitely from Wit because we can see him) fits with the best practice for current treatment practice of OSDD and DID. On the other hand, "ruling" the alternative aspects of the core personality is not the standard practice amongst medical professionals - they aim for people to control their anxiety and then help the personalities re-knit. The king and subjects line doesn't really fit - BS is known to research these kinds of things to a good depth.

Ultimately though, how different you view these lines is a matter of personal perspectives, so other than pointing out the possible disparities it is probably not the best way to solve this one way or the other. As a result, I started to think about telepathy.

 We have never seen true telepathy on Roshar. Indeed we have never seen it in the cosmere to my knowledge. The closest thing we see to it is in Mistborn

Spoiler

Where Ruin speaks into Vin's mind because she is spiked by metal. He is able to pretend to be her brother because (at least I understood it to be this way) she presumed it to be her brother and he just let her run with it. He could only speak to people in this way if they had been spiked by metal - in some way "ruined". He could also alter memories, stuff written on paper etc but could not affect things carved on metal. Note he was not technically omnipresent, he needed to be in the right place to do these things.

We have some interesting close similarities on Roshar - the Stormfather can convey images to people - but it is clear that either he or Dalinar must be in their presence to do so. As a second point, we see Dalinar hear "Unite them" but it is unclear exactly where this comes from. I think we all thought is was from Honor before OB but there have definitely been some questions raised (with good reason) about this. Thirdly, Dalinar hears "I forgive you" as he connects to the spiritual realm, presumably from Evi but it may not be. Fourthly, (sorry this got longer as I was writing it) Kal sees a vision of the future in the crystal ball when he touches it (palantir anyone?). That was almost certainly of Odium. Lastly, Dalinar sees "warmth and light" both at the end of WoR and OB. It is suggested that this may be from Cultivation but it may also be that he always has a link to the spiritual realm.

 There are two important things that all of these share. Proximity and an entity with access to the Spiritual realm. The only other aspects of "telepathy" occur with Syl/Pattern talking to their respective humans when in Blade form. There is a strong cognitive bond here and again, physical contact has to be made. It is not clear that Syl or Pattern could communicate this way with someone else holding them. With one notable exception (in Shadesmar where the rules are different) Kaladin and Syl never speak mind to mind without there being contact as far as i can remember.

To our knowledge Wit cannot have been near the Heart of the Revel - indeed he specifically states that he cannot get close in an earlier chapter (I think - can someone confirm? My cremcrusted Kindle has decided to stop letting me search for things) Secondly, whilst Wit is known to be a worldhopper, we do not know how much access he has to the Spiritual realm. Given that he refused to carry a shard of Adonalsium, and he claims to be "just a man" I think we can infer that he probably does not have direct, controllable access. On top of this Shallan certainly does not have access.

I think a lot of people assume Wit/Hoid lies alot. He doesn't. He is truthful almost to a fault but he ties his truths up with so much trimming that the nature of the truth he speaks is not always clear until much later. I, therefore, tend to treat his words with caution, but I generally accept what he is saying, knowing that he is always at least 1 step ahead of me.

As a result, I think it is fair to say that Wit is a very unlikely source of the voice that Shallan hears when she "mind-melds" with Ashertmann. To those who mention Sja-Anat, remember that Shallan never touched her. They had a conversation through a mirror and the physical proximity is needed. Odium may not be able to control the communication without physical contact, just as Ruin cannot - the holders of the Shards of Adonalsium have limited presence in the physical realm and seem to have to reach through via certain specific lines of power. It may be that each also has specific things they cannot affect - again see Mistborn.

The next thing I want to say is that it is clear that Ashertman was part of a trap. It seems reasonable to conclude that Shallan would try to touch him/her/it after her encounter with ReShephir (who may have informed Odium of what happened in some way). Why not, as part of the trap - particularly given the way Odium clearly  has a number of back-up plans, ensure that even if Shallan survives (it is implied that whatever Sja-Anat did to the Oathgate was new and unpredictable) she would already be potentially vulnerable to Odium. Rayse knew Hoid before the shattering of Adonalsium. He likely knows Hoid is around, even if he can't find the man so perhaps he imitated him. On top of that, Shallan may simply have assumed it was Wit's voice (ooooh pehaps Rayse and Hoid are brothers...... lol for completely evidence lacking hypothesis) because they sound enough alike for her to confuse them.  We simply don't know.

Now, this is  a little complicated, but it does fit the evidence. I still would not rule out Hoid (of all people) being able to do some kind of telepathy but BS is known for hard coding his magic and I can't see him breaking the laws of his own universe just for a small moment like this. Better to have a set up where Hoid either is seen performing telepathy so we can see it, or have him unable to perform it - which follows the current knowledge we have and have him imitated at a crucial moment. 

I personally am not sure that Odium has any idea about the conversation that Shallan has with Wit. He may and he may even recognise Hoid in it but why would something that has the intent of "the void" be particularly good at searching people's memories in moments? Odium, clearly isn't omniscient - he cannot see the part Renarin will play after all and he does not oredict Dalinar's ascension. IMO he wasn't trying to replicate Wit, it is just as likely Shallan simply thought it must be Wit speaking because of the words that were spoken.

As a side note, people have suggested that she "gets better" after this. This is straightforward wrong. Shallan is getting worse. You can argue about whether she is worse at the end (if she were IRL OSDD then I would say she definitely is in a worse state) of OB but when Ashertman leaves, she knows she failed. And it seems reasonable to think that she also failed to unite herself. 

Side point perhaps Dalinar's "Unite them" is for him to help Shallan unite her alts back into one personality. 

[Darvys]

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Why are the Lightweavers considered to be deeply vulnerable to dissociative disorders? All we know is that they were mainly comprised of artists and people with mnemonic abilities. It is not like all Windrunners were depressed wretches like Kaladin too... As far as we know Shallan's condition is a unique thing to her.

Because advancing in their order requires them to admit and face truths that they for whatever reason decided to lock away, and like with Shallan the more extreme cases might face the same struggles to cope ?

[Guest]

Just now, Darvys said:

Because advancing in their order requires them to admit and face truths that they for whatever reason decided to lock away, and like with Shallan the more extreme cases might face the same struggles to cope ?

You don't have to have a dissociative disorder to lack self-awareness. In fact, most humans are pretty damnation bad at being self-aware and aren't considered mental patients.

[Darvys]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You don't have to have a dissociative disorder to lack self-awareness. In fact, most humans are pretty damnation bad at being self-aware and aren't considered mental patients.

How is this relevant to what i said ? I didn't say that the disorder was a consequence or cause of the lack, but a possible consequence of forcing yourself to face painful truths you're not quite ready to handle.

[PhineasGage]

 

8 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Because advancing in their order requires them to admit and face truths that they for whatever reason decided to lock away, and like with Shallan the more extreme cases might face the same struggles to cope ?

Dissociative identity disorders are not common. The most common reaction to having the severe trauma associated with DID is actually to develop a personality disorder - often Borderline PD. It may have some dissociation - eg black outs, time lapse etc but true dissociation of personalitites into 2 or more alters is unusual. 

I can go into detail if necessary. Point is that in 100 people who experience similar levels of early childhood trauma, only 1 might go on to dissociate their identity. On top of that, DID and OSDD are strongly linked to early childhood abuse. You could become a lightweaver later in life as a result of trauma later in life but you'd be unlikely to dissociate your identity - you'd develop PTSD instead. 

If you were going to point at a disorder and say "that's the one for lightweavers", PTSD would be way ahead of the rest because, if nothing else it is way more common as it has multiple ways in which it can arise.

Edited November 24, 2017 by PhineasGage
typo

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I personally am not sure that Odium has any idea about the conversation that Shallan has with Wit. He may and he may even recognise Hoid in it but why would something that has the intent of "the void" be particularly good at searching people's memories in moments? Odium, clearly isn't omniscient - he cannot see the part Renarin will play after all and he does not oredict Dalinar's ascension. IMO he wasn't trying to replicate Wit, it is just as likely Shallan simply thought it must be Wit speaking because of the words that were spoken.

Hm. I could get behind that. The simple fact I think is, that Odium, through the connection, got wind of Shallan's fear and condition of fragmentation and decided to weaken his enemy by trying to hold it up. While I first thought, that it might be his goal to hinder her progress as a Lightweaver, that doesn't make sense, when he later searches for an Elsecaller... Or maybe Sja-anat has outdated information, since there wasn't much time between Ashertmarn and the teleportation to Shadesmar, where Shallan speaks with Sja-anat.

Edited November 24, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

I suspect Odium thought she was an Elsecaller because they ended up physically in Shadesmar - and he didn't realise Sja-Anat had helped them.

Shallan was obviously dissociating, both when she fought ReShephir and when she fought Ashertman. There is no particular reason I can think of that would prevent her being an Elsecaller just because of a mental health diagnosis. Looking at our definite Windrunners, Teft has an addiction problem but I would not suggest he is depressed like Kaladin is. Lopen is not depressed at all from what we have seen, though clearly something is going on there - I haven't got a specific diagnosis for him so perhaps he doesn't have one - "broken" might not only mean mental health issues - it might simply be that his trajectory had been disrupted by losing an arm so he lost the ability to view himself as a useful member of society - even without becoming depressed. I am unsure. I have been looking through my psych textbook and havent yet jumped on anything that has made me go "oh yeah there's Lopen!"

Anyway, as I menitoned before dissociating identities happen as a result of very early trauma. It is usually abuse but can be anything in theory. It is usually seen as a condequence of disrupted family attachment in the first few years of life. That doesn't strike me as something that would automatically result in someone becoming a Lightweaver. Sure the "lies" of the dissociation might be attractive to a Cryptic, but if the person either managed to reassemble themselves, or focussed on being someone who spent their life looking for answers (like Jasnah) it would allow them to bond something else potentially. I don't see why, in a different situation for example,  a cultivationspren wouldn't have looked at Kal and gone - yeah he'll work for me.... He is a natural healer and if anything has trouble forgetting people!

Perhaps it also helps that lightweavers and elsecallers share a surge so it is easier to get them mixed up? 

[ScavellTane]

Didn't Hoid said that Odium would level the city if he found out he was there or something. Or am I crazy?

Quote

On the other hand, if Rayse learned that Wit was in the city, he’d order his forces to level it—and would consider that a cheap price for even the slimmest chance of ending him.
 

Found it.

Edited November 24, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Jace21 he/him]

There is another example of telepathy and it isn't from a Shard. 

Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

Paalm speaks to Wax telepathically in SoS. He theorises she has figured out how to do what Ruin dies since he is wearing his earring. She may be right, she may not.

But it shows that non-shardic telepathy is possible at least.

So it is certainly possible that Hoid could have figured out how to do it and if he can I doubt it would be breaking cosmere rules, just following a method we are not yet aware of.

It could also just be Shallan using his voice in her subconscious as other have said. I still dont see the two pieces of advise as different, just seperate explanations of the same thing.

I concede it is possible it was the unmade/odium as there is no direct evidence against it, but the other options seem much more likely to me.

[ScavellTane]

How did Wit make Shallan Allomanticly burn Gold?

Edited November 24, 2017 by ScavellTane