[OB] Info about the orders

[DiamondMind he/him]

A made a small chart gathering all the information we know about the orders of Knights Radiant in one place. I believe it's pretty much confirmed that each order has a lesser spren associated with it that makes up their shardplate. Is there any other information that we learned from Oathbringer that can be added in? Did I miss anything?

Order	Surges	True Spren	Lesser Spren	Passive Resonance	Herald	Gemstone	Attributes
Windrunners	Adhesion / Gravity	Honorspren	Windspren	Strength and Number of Squires	Jezrien	Sapphire	Protecting / Leading
Skybreakers	Gravity / Division	Highspren		Identifying the guilty?	Naln	Smokestone	Just / Confident
Dustbrinders	Division / Friction	Ashspren			Chanarach	Ruby	Brave / Obedient
Edgedancers	Friction / Progression	Cultivationspren	Lifespren		Vedel	Diamond	Loving / Healing
Truthwatchers	Progression / Illumination	Mistspren?			Pailiah	Emerald	Learned / Giving
Lightweavers	Illumination / Transformation	Liespren/Cryptics	Creationspren	Mnemonic abilities	Shalash	Garnet	Creativity / Honesty
Elsecallers	Transformation / Transportation	Inkspren	Logicspren?	Soulcasting at a distance?	Battar	Zircon	Wisdom / Care
Willshapers	Transportation / Cohesion	Lightspren/Reachers			Kalak	Amethyst	Resolute / Builder
Stonewards	Cohesion / Tension				Talenel	Topaz	Dependable / Resourceful
Bondsmiths	Tension / Adhesion	Siblings	Gloryspren	Various?	Ishar	Heliodor	Pious / Guiding

Edited November 19, 2017 by DiamondMind

[aemetha he/him]

I think it should read "Stonewards" not "Stonewardens".

This is a great table. Can I ask where the information on the Skybreakers resonance comes from, or is that just a guess?

[DiamondMind he/him]

Just now, aemetha said:

I think it should read "Stonewards" not "Stonewardens".

This is a great table. Can I ask where the information on the Skybreakers resonance comes from, or is that just a guess?

Thanks. Anything with a question mark is a guess. I don't know if we're sure about mistspren, skybreakers were said to have the power of separating the innocent from the guilty and that could only be a resonance, and bondsmiths are just weird.

[aemetha he/him]

7 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

I don't know if we're sure about mistspren, skybreakers were said to have the power of separating the innocent from the guilty and that could only be a resonance, and bondsmiths are just weird.

In that case, I'm pretty sure the edgedancers resonance is shard cutlery

No, in all seriousness, I think that likely is the skydancers resonance, I was just curious if I'd missed some example of it in use. I'm a little in two minds with the mistspren. I had initially thought they could be the lesser spren for willshapers because they worked so closely with the lightspren and didn't really come across to me as on the same level as the other higher spren.

Edited November 19, 2017 by aemetha

[Aleksiel]

Hm, I would keep 'resonance' for what Dalinar and Shallan did creating the map of Roshar, and change that field to 'passive ability' or 'perk'. For now I can't tell if resonance is a Bondsmith related ability only or any two orders could create something new together.

Edit: a minor thing is changing the heralds to either all vorin or all actual names for the sake of consistency.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Aleksiel

[DiamondMind he/him]

15 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Hm, I would keep 'resonance' for what Dalinar and Shallan did creating the map of Roshar, and change that field to 'passive ability' or 'perk'. For now I can't tell if resonance is a Bondsmith related ability only or any two orders could create something new together.

Edit: a minor thing is changing the heralds to either all vorin or all actual names for the sake of consistency.

Unfortunately, "Resonance" is what it's been called up until Oathbringer, so until the community decides on a better name...I will change it to 'passive resonance' though.

And I took all the names from the Coppermind, so if some of them are wrong that has to be changed as well.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DiamondMind

[aemetha he/him]

Should probably add RIP or something next to Jezrien. Windrunners no longer have a herald.

[Aleksiel]

7 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

Unfortunately, "Resonance" is what it's been called up until Oathbringer, so until the community decides on a better name...I will change it to 'passive resonance' though.

There was another topic as far as WoK with excel file with similar info and those abilities are listed as perks there. I also remember it as passive abilities in other topics, so I don't agree resonance is the established term for those. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Anyone else finding it interesting that at the moment each Radiant is doing well at the first of their attributes but badly on the second, at least superficially?

Kaladin needs to learn (but has started) about delegation and letting losses go etc (nearly there) and other aspects of leadership (Adolin and Dalinar can help him surely?). He has vastly improved this book though, and that's why he's close to the 4th Ideal.

Shallan's lies are now a huge part of her character, keeping secrets re the Ghostbloods in particular but also her personalities and guarding her feelings (no resolution with Kal re her brother).

Dalinar has lost a lot of his religious faith and has been denounced as a Heretic. Odium is the god he knows now, but he still has some faith, so if he gets in touch with Adonalsium a bit more he'll get to his next ideal.

Szeth may well be just now, and seems it in his internal dialogue, but lacks confidence in his own ability to judge. Nin has actually lost this as well, which may be relevant.

Jasnah is wise but lacks compassion. However, she shows some glimpses at the end with Renarin, and there are suggestions that she made a temporary Plate and may be near her 4th Ideal.

Lift cares for others and does spread that agape-style love. Despite physically healing though, so far she has not done a lot of emotional healing. 

Renarin we don't see a lot of, but we see him as Learned for a while, but he is closed off and not especially giving.

 

Am I stretching this too far? I suspect that the 4th Ideal comes roughly along with the 2nd attribute

[emailanimal he/him]

The spren for Stonewards is ... .drumroll... stonepren. We saw them in Shadesmar.

Also, can we have a list of Oaths/Ideals for each Order?

 

@IndigoAjah: there is a lot of interesting things in what you are saying, which I believe work on three levels:

 

1. Ability with Surges.  Everyone seems to be doing much better with one of the Surges than with their other.  Lift slides, but does not heal as much. Renarin (albeit he is a special case) Heals, but barely Illuminates. Shallan Lightweaves, but doesn't Soulcast. Jasnah Soucasts, but barely Transports. 

2. Attributes. Just as you are saying.

3. Oaths. My new theory is that for most Orders of the Knights Radiant, their Oaths/Ideals are structured according to the following template:

       Ideal #1: Journey before Destination. 

       Ideal #2:  proclamation of a core value of the Order.  "I will protect", "I will unite", "I will remember", "I will serve the law",  "I will stand" etc.  This is the core principle of the Order.

       Ideal #3: kicks it up a notch. Picks a great fear and turns it into strength. This is seen in the cases of Bondsmiths ("I will fail") and Windrunners ("I will protect those I hate")

       Ideal #4: Acknowledges a key limitation.  We've not seen the fourth Ideal of anyone except for Skybreakers (and they are one of the two exceptions to me), but it is suspected that Kaladin was not willing to say the Fourth Ideal of Windrunners because it is about acknowledging that he can fail to protect some, and needs to move on to protecting those who still need it.  I also suspect that the Fourth Ideal of Elsecallers is something like "I will not lose my empathy". (see below)

     Ideal #5: something ultimate for each order. Not certain how else to say it.

In other words: #2 - first Attribute. #3: escalation of first Attribute. #4: second Attribute.

 

Caveats. Lightweavers have their own thing, and Skybreakers have ideals that kinda sorta fit the idea behind my #3 and #4, but I'd have to think more about it.

Thoughts on Elsecallers.  I used to think that their second Ideal is "I will go where no one will".  However, now I think that this is the Second Ideal of Willshapers. For Elsecallers, I see something like #2: "I will be the voice of reason".,  #3 (escalating) "I will not abandon reason even if everyone else has" (or something similar), and #4  "I will not lose my empathy".  I do not have strong reasons to believe all this. Primarily, I am reading what Elsecallers wrote on the gems, observing Jasnah's role in the proceedings (voice of reason to Kal's voice of passion), and am thinking about how intellect without empathy and empathy w/o intellect are disfunctional on the example of Taravangian. Elsecallers cannot fall into the same trap, so they must preserve their ability to empathize. Jasnah certainly has, and this is a major plot point in the book and the one clear sign of her character development.

 

[Edit]: looking at Stonewards. Their second Attribute is "Resourceful".  We seem to know that "I will stand when others fall" is their Second Ideal. I suspect that their third Ideal escalates that, but their fourth Ideal is essentially to the tune of "you don't have to sacrifice yourselves all the time, there are better ways to achieve the same goals".

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by emailanimal