[OB] Taravangian and the Diagram -- not what we think?

[Jaconis]

I think people are being a little harsh on T. I think it’s clear his original goal (at least the non brilliant version’s) from the meeting with Odium was to save the entire world. 

Quote

“Your Passion,” Odium said, “does you credit. What is it you ask in barter?”

“Protect the people I rule.”

“Dear Taravangian, do you not think I can see what you are planning?” Odium gestured toward writing where the ceiling had once stood. “You would seek to become king of all humans—and then I would need to preserve them all. No. If you help me, I will save your family. Anyone within two generations of you.”

“Not enough.”

“Then we have no deal.”

The words started to fade all around them. Leaving him alone. Alone and stupid. He blinked tears from the corners of his eyes. “Kharbranth,” he said. “Preserve only Kharbranth. You may destroy all other nations. Just leave my city. It is what I beg of you.”

This dialogue is clear to me that T wanted to make the deal that he help Odium in exchange for Odium preserving those that T ruled, and T was trying to rule everyone. Odium saw through this, and agreed to only Kharbranth. 

Now, this seems like something brilliant T would have foreseen, so it’s entirely possible brilliant T only wanted to save Kharbranth. That said, it’s also possible he has a bigger plan to save all of Roshar, and getting into a deal with Odium was just part of it. 

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

Personally, I'm wondering how they are going to make the deal come back and hurt Odium.

Quote

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1217). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I foresee a marriage boon. 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

3 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

Personally, I'm wondering how they are going to make the deal come back and hurt Odium.

I foresee a marriage boon. 

Or some serious city expansion work

[TalenelStonesiniew]

15 hours ago, Storyspren said:

Understood that.

The evidence you quote comes, crucially, after the following:

“Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.”

Excerpt From
Oathbringer
Brandon Sanderson
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/oathbringer/id1198279804?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

So his approach is to say whatever is necessary to implement whatever it was he understood from the diagram. It’s not selling out the rest of humanity if it’s a lie from the beginning. 

The problem with with Taravangian is his boon was egocentric. "How can I save the world." instead  of "How can the world be saved." The difference might seem slim, but they are oceans apart. Taravangian is acting is his OWN interests. The double-cross is Nightwatcher/Cultivation is USING taravangian's self interest to achieve victory over Odium. Taravangian is not an instrument in Roshar's salvation, he is merely a tool.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

4 hours ago, Mulk said:

It's interesting to me that Renarin is...off the table.  I guess the one thing Odium could not or did not foresee is one of his creatures/tools breaking from the fold enough to give his enemies a weapon against him.  Renarin can make use of Odium's essence in a sense to see the future.  In a sense, it's like Odium and Renarin can both burn atium, but only Renarin knows they both can do it.  He knows he can be wrong in ways Odium doesn't, yet, and that may have a long chain of rippling effects reaching outward - it gives the KR a man on the inside, as it were.  I think it's a point in both Jasnah's and Renarin's favor - Jasnah's that she had compassion on her cousin who is bound to a corrupted spren, Renarin that he was such a young man as to engender said response - he's possibly the most genuine being we've seen in the series to date.  It's interesting that this kid who is likely on the spectrum is set up to be such a game-changer.

What I wonder is whether the Kholins will try to keep the truth a secret that Renarin bonded a corrupted spren, or admit the truth and just say they don't care and will kill anyone that tries to touch Renarin.

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Just as I think, Taravangian unknowingly is not saving Karbranth, but sacrificing it. 

That would be poetic justice. Although undeserved for the people of the city.

1 hour ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

Personally, I'm wondering how they are going to make the deal come back and hurt Odium.

I foresee a marriage boon. 

Thats technically quite easy. Just announce its alright for polygomany and marry an entire city to a person in Kharbranth. Then do this accross all of Roshar. Yet somehow I suspect this won't occur. Call it a gut feeling .

[TalenelStonesiniew]

6 hours ago, Darvys said:

I believe Cultivation IS trying to use the diagram to backstab Odium, but i doubt he'd be blind to that, she got him once, i find it hard to believe she'll manage to get him again. When both sides have a way however imperfect to see the future it becomes really difficult to make plans long term. While genius T could be using dumb T, there's nothing to stop Odium from cutting a string or two along the way and replacing them with his own. Curious to see how it'll play out, but i don't think it'll be to the benefit of mankind.

Unless Taravargian is a puppet dangling on Cultivation's strings. SHE decides when he has good days and when he has bad days. 

[Mulk he/him]

30 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

What I wonder is whether the Kholins will try to keep the truth a secret that Renarin bonded a corrupted spren, or admit the truth and just say they don't care and will kill anyone that tries to touch Renarin.

Hopefully, they've learned from the secret keeping though I suspect they will try to keep it off the table.

[emailanimal he/him]

I am actually quite happy to see this conversation start.  Prior to Oathbringer, the going assumption of a lot of people was that the Diagram was influenced by Odium, and that Odium was controlling Taravangian. This: despite clear indications that this was all the work of Cultivation.

 

Now, it seems like the things are swinging in the other direction. We have seen that Cultivation can play a very mean long game with only relatively light touches.  We know that there are three people touched by her and two have already been pretty crucial in fighting Odium.  So, it does stand to reason that Taravangian is another ace in her deck.  My earlier assumption was that he would be the second Bondsmith, bonding Cultivation's godspren (Nightwatcher).  This is still a possibility, in case of a double-cross; less so, if we have observed a Face-Heel Turn.

 

I really want to believe that Taravangian is playing a much longer and more complicated game, because I see him as a tragic, not a villainous character, but if the result of his interaction with Odium is a true Face-Heel Turn, then he has slid from tragic and into villainous. I do not want that. I want a complex character with strange morals and with a different view of what it means to save Roshar to be actually trying to save Roshar his way.  Even if unsuccessfully. Even if this interferes with Dalinar.  But Taravangian carrying water for Odium? This is less interesting.  

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

Quote

 

“Kharbranth,” Odium said. “The city itself, and any humans who have been born into it, along with their spouses. This is whom I will spare. Do you agree to this?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1217). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

What I wonder though is what Odium's intent is on what he means by spare? 

 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

10 hours ago, emailanimal said:

I really want to believe that Taravangian is playing a much longer and more complicated game, because I see him as a tragic, not a villainous character, but if the result of his interaction with Odium is a true Face-Heel Turn, then he has slid from tragic and into villainous. I do not want that. I want a complex character with strange morals and with a different view of what it means to save Roshar to be actually trying to save Roshar his way.  Even if unsuccessfully. Even if this interferes with Dalinar.  But Taravangian carrying water for Odium? This is less interesting.  

I really want to believe T is a dupe and an idiot which Cultivation is using for her own ends. I hope something good comes out of the Diagram, but not because of anything T has hidden, just because Cultivation is that awesome. I know many people admire T, and I respect that opinion, but I always deeply disliked him. IMHO anyone that honestly believes they can get anything good out of killing innocents and great people in some cases has some serious issues, and nothing good can (intentionally) come out of him.

4 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

What I wonder though is what Odium's intent is on what he means by spare? 

 

My thoughts exactly. The wording could be twisted in so many ways, I could think of 3 without too much effort. 

Spare as in, I will make sure no-one from Karbranth dies when I take the city and that the city is intact too.

Or, I will capture everyone from Karbranth and keep them as slaves for the parsh.

Or, I will lay siege to Karbranth and watch everyone starve to death although I won't personally lift a finger to harm them.

[emailanimal he/him]

16 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I know many people admire T, and I respect that opinion, but I always deeply disliked him.

I do not admire him as a person.  But I admire him as a Brandon Sanderson character. If his arc goes towards outright villain, I will admire him as a character much less.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Just now, emailanimal said:

I do not admire him as a person.  But I admire him as a Brandon Sanderson character. If his arc goes towards outright villain, I will admire him as a character much less.

Fair point. Then I can say I admire his character too...but I deeply hate and despise him and will cheer so hard when he dies, or when his beloved city is destroyed and burnt to the ground...I really am too bloodthirsty . 

[rjl]

A slightly wild theory that came to me earlier is that maybe Cultivation's plan is for Mr T to end up as Odium's champion then fail in some way at a key opportunity.

[Calderis he/him]

Alright. I'm probably going to repeat a lot of what has already been said here, but it's a Taravangian thread, and that's my bread and butter, so deal. 

I've said from the beginning that The Diagram reeks of Cultivation's intent. Nothing that's happened so far in the series would have been possible if not for Taravangian meddling. Considering what we saw of Dalinar's Boon and Curse, I have no doubt at this point that Taravangian isn't being maneuvered in the same manner. 

In the meeting with Odium, there was the section with Renarin that was hidden from Odium, but more importantly there were the words that he was given to speak. The ability to look through the Diagram and understand it all, means that something had to be shielding pieces from Odium directly. If Taravangian, on a stupid day, were to be speaking words directly from the Diagram at a time that Odium is looking over it himself, you can't tell me that Odium wouldn't notice. This is not merely the Diagram having hidden words, this is one Shard undermining another. 

Taravangian obviously believes that Odium can't be beaten, and that leads to the negotiation situation we saw. Now, with pieces hidden from Odium, and Odium believing that Taravangian works for him, Cultivation has placed a network to perform what she in a place that will be relatively ignored by Odium. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Diagram gets an update soon. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Taravangian obviously believes that Odium can't be beaten, and that leads to the negotiation situation we saw. Now, with pieces hidden from Odium, and Odium believing that Taravangian works for him, Cultivation has placed a network to perform what she in a place that will be relatively ignored by Odium. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Diagram gets an update soon. 

For once I agree with you regarding the Diagram. But part of why it works is I believe T is a dupe with no idea how Cultivation is using him. And that someone like T who fully believes he is serving Odium to save his tiny city will be happy with that deal...you can't tell me T is a hero after that negotiation.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

For once I agree with you regarding the Diagram. But part of why it works is I believe T is a dupe with no idea how Cultivation is using him. And that someone like T who fully believes he is serving Odium to save his tiny city will be happy with that deal...you can't tell me T is a hero after that negotiation.

I have never claimed he was a hero. Even my Bondsmith theory had him as a well intentioned villain. 

[Darvys]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

In the meeting with Odium, there was the section with Renarin that was hidden from Odium, but more importantly there were the words that he was given to speak. The ability to look through the Diagram and understand it all, means that something had to be shielding pieces from Odium directly. If Taravangian, on a stupid day, were to be speaking words directly from the Diagram at a time that Odium is looking over it himself, you can't tell me that Odium wouldn't notice. This is not merely the Diagram having hidden words, this is one Shard undermining another. 

That's not how i understood it, i think Odium did see the Diagram in its entirety and expanded it, but the branch linked to Renarin did not hold, as whatever manifestation of foresight or intellect this was could not account for another seer's interference, it's this reversal that he missed as he was focused on another section. Same for the words T spoke, Odium actually went to look at them again, they weren't hidden from him.

So if Cultivation is palying a game here, it's either far too intricate for Odium to infer from the Diagram alone, or he did notice it all and didn't let on. 

What i'm wondering is whether Cultivation is as blind to Renarin's potential as Odium is, would be funny if our little Kholin ended up upending both deities' plans only to come up with his own miraculous solution.

[lordofsoup]

I don't get what purpose siding with Odium serves him.  Mr. T's whole goal has been to save the many even it means that he must sacrifice the few along the way, so turning that on its head makes no sense.  It also doesn't jive with telling Dalinar that he wanted to seize control and was the one who sent Szeth and then immediately betraying them to Odium.  

Do we have any WoB stating that Odium has not tampered with the Diagram's written form like Ruin did?

[Leyrann]

52 minutes ago, Darvys said:

What i'm wondering is whether Cultivation is as blind to Renarin's potential as Odium is, would be funny if our little Kholin ended up upending both deities' plans only to come up with his own miraculous solution.

And now you've got me wondering "what if it isn't Dalinar who will pick up the Shards and become Roshar's version of Harmony, but rather Renarin?"

[Calderis he/him]

16 minutes ago, lordofsoup said:

I don't get what purpose siding with Odium serves him.  Mr. T's whole goal has been to save the many even it means that he must sacrifice the few along the way, so turning that on its head makes no sense.  It also doesn't jive with telling Dalinar that he wanted to seize control and was the one who sent Szeth and then immediately betraying them to Odium.  

Do we have any WoB stating that Odium has not tampered with the Diagram's written form like Ruin did?

He literally can't do that. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3614

Quote

Wolfbeckett

Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course.

Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.)

So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.