Sariel he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Posted October 27, 2017 Hello, I'm Sariel. I joined yesterday. Nice to meet you all. like all of you (probably), I have a mile-length list of questions about the cosmere I'd like Mr. Sanderson to answer. Here's one I was wondering about: We already know that if someone had a lot of Breath when when he died, and then he turned into a Lifeless. he'd be more sentient, and will be able to control himself better. Arsteel is a good example for that. So is someone would take the body of a previous Shardholder, like Ati or Leras, what would happen? Would they be fully sentient and able to control their bodies? Would it matter if the Shardholder held the Shard for thousands of years, like Ati, or for a couple of hours, like Vin? What is your opinion?
Yata he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) Hi Seriel The scenario is a bit troublesome. Honestly I don't think the Clod's cases happens regularry when someone with a lot of Breath dies as the Breath will leave the corpse upon death. I belive that what happened with Astreel was caused by reciving Breath just before die. That Breath probably weren't completelly join with the Soul and therefore a part remained in the corpse. Probably it's those Breath who mimic poorly the former owner's mind Anyway returning to your actual question, if a Sliver's corpse is used as Lifeless's material, I think you will have mostly a regular Lifeless. The Soul and Mind is already gone...So it can't be fully sentient as it's the Soul the one deeply affected from holding a Shard. EDIT: I just realized you are new here, so maybe you don't know some terms. Sliver= Someone who helds an huge amount of Shard's power as the raw amount of Investiture, infused the Soul at the point to twist and change it also once the power is no more his. The former Vessel are by default Sliver and a Sliver upon death could always remains as Cognitive Shadow. Vessel= the canon term for Shardholder Cognitive Shadow= Upon death a Soul is pulled by the Beyond, it could remain for some time (usually seconds or minutes) before reach it. A Cognitive Shadow is someone that had his Soul replaced by pure Investiture. This allows him to remain for an unlimited time in the Realms after his death. This apply to him some other kind of restriction but it's not relevant here. Edited October 27, 2017 by Yata 1
Sariel he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Author Posted October 27, 2017 Thank you for the detailed comment, and the clarification of the terms! I've read most of the cosmere books, including Mistborn: Secret History, so I know terms like Vessel or Cognitive Shadow , I'm just not used to using them. I didn't know about Slivers.
Calderis he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) Eh, I disagree with @Yata here. We have a WoB saying that breath is strongly tied up in the physical realm, so while the corpse of a person decays, the breath will be released back into the system, I think that the breath isn't instantly released in death. The outcome of the question I don't disagree with. In contrast, the vessel of a Shard has that power imprinted into their Cognitive and spiritual aspects, so while the body was subsumed in the Shard itself, upon returning with the Vessels death there may be some residual effects, I don't think it would be different than a standard lifeless. Edited October 27, 2017 by Calderis 1
Vortaan he/him Posted October 27, 2017 Posted October 27, 2017 Wasn't there a WoB that Sazed studying the corpses of Ati and Leras would have provided some interesting results? Regardless I'm going to go with: you might get a Lifeless that is more sentient than Arsteel, but that sentience is probably going to be tied closely to the Intent of the Vessel. Have fun with your Ruin-minded zombie... 1
Yata he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 8 hours ago, Calderis said: Eh, I disagree with @Yata here. We have a WoB saying that breath is strongly tied up in the physical realm, so while the corpse of a person decays, the breath will be released back into the system, I think that the breath isn't instantly released in death. The outcome of the question I don't disagree with. Well here probably we have different views. The Death of someone with Breath made the Breath goes wild. I always assumed the Breath follow the Soul Upon Death and this transition is what made the Breath Crazy. Also I assume that if having a Breath or not change the Lifeless creation's outcome the Awakened Will know It. But the Awakening is at his beginning so this isn't real a proof. Indeed your scenario is possible, I have to considerate this.
Sariel he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Author Posted October 28, 2017 So, what would happen if Vin's body was made a Lifeless? She Ascended, but only for a little before she died, so her mind wasn't corrupted by the Shard yet, but she took a whole lot of investiture into her. It is similar to Arsteel's case in some aspect. I tend to think that she would be like Clod, but much more sentient.
Yata he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sariel said: So, what would happen if Vin's body was made a Lifeless? She Ascended, but only for a little before she died, so her mind wasn't corrupted by the Shard yet, but she took a whole lot of investiture into her. It is similar to Arsteel's case in some aspect. I tend to think that she would be like Clod, but much more sentient. I assume the time you spent as Ascendent being means almost nothing with the degree of Investiture a Shard carries with itself. Rashek becomes a Preservation's Sliver holding a fraction of Preservation's Power for seconds/minutes. Vin held the whole Shard and longer than Rashek. As I said before, I believe a Lifeless from a Sliver will be a regular Lifeless. You cited the Mind corrupting effect of a Shard, but this is meaningless for a couple of reasons: 1) the affected mind (corrupted or not) is no more relevant to the topic as it's no more connected to the body....A corpse is just physical the Mind and the Soul are gone. 2) The Mind will mostly recover from holding a Shard after the Shard is gone. Of course there will be a little amount of side effects, but mainly the Shard's influx is gone....but again this is meaningless as the Lifeless is made by the physical alone. For sake of the argument if we assume that having an high Invested corpse matter when this corpse is turned into a Lifeless (and by the way, it is possible). Different kinds of Investiture could work differently. For example Breath is explicity easy to imprint with a Cognitive Aspect (it's the fondament of Awakening) and therefore a Breath could more easily carry the former Cognitive into the freshmade Lifeless. Other kinds of Investiture are not so strictly tied to this mechanic. But it's hard to give a definitive answer EDIT: @Calderis I just tried to ask to the supreme authority, I doubt to recive an answer but who knows Edited October 28, 2017 by Yata
Vortaan he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 8 hours ago, Yata said: 2) The Mind will mostly recover from holding a Shard after the Shard is gone. Of course there will be a little amount of side effects, but mainly the Shard's influx is gone....but again this is meaningless as the Lifeless is made by the physical alone. Any proof to back that up? I'm not even sure if a human -can- give up holding a Shard and survive the process.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, Vortaan said: Any proof to back that up? I'm not even sure if a human -can- give up holding a Shard and survive the process. I'm looking for the WoB, and I'll edit it in if I find it, but we do know that a Vessel can step down from Shardhood.
Calderis he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Vortaan said: Any proof to back that up? I'm not even sure if a human -can- give up holding a Shard and survive the process. Multiple WoBs on this. First the FAQFriday answer Quote Questioner Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish. As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like. Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?) And I'll try to edit in more when I can...
Vortaan he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Calderis said: Brandon Sanderson Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish. I'm sticking to the Intent altering the actual person to some degree until there's a WoB or scene proving otherwise. At least immediately after giving up a Shard and probably for some time after. I don't think if Ati had given up Ruin during Vin's time, he'd have gone back to being a decent guy right away.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calderis said: First the FAQFriday answer And I'll try to edit in more when I can... Oh right, FAQFriday. Forgot about those. Have a Supplementary WoB: Quote Q: Can a person holding a shard voluntarily give up the shard? Vin gave it up by killing herself, but could Harmony/Sazed just decide to quit? A: I will answer this eventually in the books. So a RAFO with a promise that you will actually get the FO part. The fact that he says it will be answered "in the books" is probably important. 1 minute ago, Vortaan said: I'm sticking to the Intent altering the actual person to some degree until there's a WoB or scene proving otherwise. I threw that into the Ultimate List a while back. On 7/1/2017 at 3:36 PM, The One Who Connects said: If say.. Tanavast had stepped down and let someone else ascend to Honor, would Tanavast still be the person he was before ascension or would he have become the walking definition of "Honor"? We'll have to wait and see if someone actually asks Brandon about it in the future.
Calderis he/him Posted October 28, 2017 Posted October 28, 2017 24 minutes ago, Vortaan said: I'm sticking to the Intent altering the actual person to some degree until there's a WoB or scene proving otherwise. At least immediately after giving up a Shard and probably for some time after. I don't think if Ati had given up Ruin during Vin's time, he'd have gone back to being a decent guy right away. I agree that the power would have changed the person to reflect the intent of the shard, but that would be a change on the Cognitive aspect of the individual. That aspect of a person is gone after death. The question in regards to the OP is whether that power alters the physical aspect. Considering that both Ati and Leras were Yolish, the things that could have been discovered with their bodies may have nothing to do with the Shards.
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