[OB] Shallan

[Nebty]

17 hours ago, Alderant said:

Well, we have...twice. She turned a goblet to blood and a ship to water through soulcasting, which is the Surge of Transformation.

True. I should've clarified that we haven't seen how her soulcasting interacts with illumination. Adhesion and Gravitation go hand in hand for Windrunners. And I think it'd be odd if a lightweaver's surges could be kept 100% separate.

4 hours ago, Alderant said:

I have no problems with this idea. What I oppose is that Shallan's Lightweaving is affecting permanent changes on the people around her, and that's why people are "changing". Which I just don't believe is what's happening. I believe that the powers are augmenting an aspect of Shallan, but they are not the cause of the changes in those around her--Shallan herself is.

It's a chicken and egg situation. Like Kaladin's fighting. Are spren attracted to people with these abilities, or do the abilities come with the spren? It's the same debate about whether rotspren cause rot or are just attracted to it, and the answer seems to be both yes and no. Ultimately, I agree with you. I think Shallan's natural ability to inspire people is being enhanced by her surges. But I also think that the reason she's a lightweaver is because she can change people in this way. Kaladin's desire/ability to protect, Shallan's desire/ability to transform... They're part of who they are, just like their powers. It's very difficult to separate them out.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Nebty

[Alderant she/her]

1 minute ago, Nebty said:

It's a chicken and egg situation. Like Kaladin's fighting. Are spren attracted to people with these abilities, or do the abilities come with the spren? It's the same debate about whether rotspren cause rot or are just attracted to it, and the answer seems to be both yes and no. Ultimately, I agree with you. I think Shallan's natural ability to inspire people is being enhanced by her surges. But I also think that the reason she's a lightweaver is because she can change people in this way. Kaladin's desire/ability to protect, Shallan's desire/ability to transform... They're part of who they are, just like their powers. It's very difficult to separate them out.

Okay. I will concede on that point. Let me point out, again, that I'm not saying the powers are 100% separated, though your last line here I would like to point out my thoughts.

"Kaladin's desire/ability to protect, Shallan's desire/ability to transform"

I don't think it's Shallan's desire/ability to transform that makes her a Lightweaver. Or at least, that's not the way I would phrase it. I think it's the desire and ability to better those around her. That's a little different to me, but you might see it as just semantics. In which case, that's fine. I appreciate your patience and willingness to debate.

Ultimately, I think the Lightweavers were paragons of spiritual sustenance because out of all the orders, a fully realized Lightweaver was the most grounded in who they were. War is trying times, and many men's hearts falter. Lightweavers could help others from getting lost in the conflict. I think, if Shallan can come to grips with her own trauma and acknowledge it, she could do the same for the many struggling characters in the series.

Finally, have a cookie. Great arguments.

Spoiler

 

[Nebty]

2 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Finally, have a cookie. Great arguments.

Yay! I finally got one! 

And you too. I find this stuff so interesting. I've started my WoK + WoR re-read in advance of Oathbringer and it's nice to be able to talk about them.

[Alderant she/her]

1 hour ago, Nebty said:

Yay! I finally got one! 

And you too. I find this stuff so interesting. I've started my WoK + WoR re-read in advance of Oathbringer and it's nice to be able to talk about them.

Same...  I've read them five or six times each on audio and I'll probably do so again before I tackle Oathbringer. 17th Shard is the only place that gets as into this stuff as me... 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Okay. I will concede on that point. Let me point out, again, that I'm not saying the powers are 100% separated, though your last line here I would like to point out my thoughts.

"Kaladin's desire/ability to protect, Shallan's desire/ability to transform"

I don't think it's Shallan's desire/ability to transform that makes her a Lightweaver. Or at least, that's not the way I would phrase it. I think it's the desire and ability to better those around her. That's a little different to me, but you might see it as just semantics. In which case, that's fine. I appreciate your patience and willingness to debate.

It would be interesting to know if their Order could fit into the "style" of the others in terms of having specific Oaths... or whether it's just too vague...

 

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Ultimately, I think the Lightweavers were paragons of spiritual sustenance because out of all the orders, a fully realized Lightweaver was the most grounded in who they were. War is trying times, and many men's hearts falter. Lightweavers could help others from getting lost in the conflict. I think, if Shallan can come to grips with her own trauma and acknowledge it, she could do the same for the many struggling characters in the series.

It's hard to know how much to extrapolate from one person to an entire Order, but yes that's my feeling too. A sort of combination of bard, therapist, supplies (with Soulcasting) and general protection against the evil influence of Odium's minions. It would be interesting to know if Shallan's ability to feel something odd about Urithiru was related to her Order or simply her progression as a Radiant.

[Steeldancer he/him]

On 10/27/2017 at 3:28 PM, Alderant said:

Same...  I've read them five or six times each on audio and I'll probably do so again before I tackle Oathbringer. 17th Shard is the only place that gets as into this stuff as me... 

I know... even my local Sanderfans just aren't as hard core as me.