Eshonai's actions in stormform

[AngelDeath]

When i first read WoR i assumed that when Listeners whet into stormform they all became like Eshonai. That they lost part of they minds, and something else took over. But looking back on it a lot of Eshonai's action in stormform don't add up with that assumption. If every Listener in stormform fell under the control of Odium then it seams like the first thing stormform Eshonai would do would be to gather all the smartest, freest thinking Listeners and get them into stormform. As a way to neutralize any opposition. Instead she dose the opposite. She seams afraid of anyone too smart going into stormform. She picks out people who take orders easily, and don't think for themselves as the first ones to take on stormform. At first i thought she didn't want strong willed people transforming because they might be able to brake out of being controlled. But then Eshonai super strong willed herself and that doesn't stop her from being controlled.   I'm guessing that stormform, and the other 'forms of the gods' make Listeners more pron to hatred, and violence, and open up a doorway for Odium to control them. But that he can only control a few at once. Probably only 9. I think the 9 people Odium is controlling (both Listeners, and humans bonded to voidspren) are spread all over Roshar. And that Eshonai was the only Listener on the Shattered Plains directly under Odium's control.                         

[Wreith]

31 minutes ago, AngelDeath said:

When i first read WoR i assumed that when Listeners whet into stormform they all became like Eshonai. That they lost part of they minds, and something else took over. But looking back on it a lot of Eshonai's action in stormform don't add up with that assumption. If every Listener in stormform fell under the control of Odium then it seams like the first thing stormform Eshonai would do would be to gather all the smartest, freest thinking Listeners and get them into stormform. As a way to neutralize any opposition. Instead she dose the opposite. She seams afraid of anyone too smart going into stormform. She picks out people who take orders easily, and don't think for themselves as the first ones to take on stormform. At first i thought she didn't want strong willed people transforming because they might be able to brake out of being controlled. But then Eshonai super strong willed herself and that doesn't stop her from being controlled.   I'm guessing that stormform, and the other 'forms of the gods' make Listeners more pron to hatred, and violence, and open up a doorway for Odium to control them. But that he can only control a few at once. Probably only 9. I think the 9 people Odium is controlling (both Listeners, and humans bonded to voidspren) are spread all over Roshar. And that Eshonai was the only Listener on the Shattered Plains directly under Odium's control.                         

Venli also appears to be heavily influenced by something. Eshonai even takes note of the fact that her sister's personality doesn't seem to have changed much when she takes Stormform.

 

As to her actions, I think it was more about who she could reasonable expect to accept the form rather than, say, Zuln heading out in the Everstorm and coming back in Warform instead of Stormform. I think she was minimizing resistance by grouping the unwilling together and denying them ANY change, lest they mount resistance with a known form.

[SilverTiger]

It could be that an Unmade is controlling them, and as it is much less powerful than Odium, it can only control so many at a time (9 seems too few, though). I think Odium, who is a Shard, would be capable of controlling many people at once (see: Ruin and the Inquisitors and the Koloss).

[Wreith]

1 minute ago, SilverTiger said:

It could be that an Unmade is controlling them, and as it is much less powerful than Odium, it can only control so many at a time (9 seems too few, though). I think Odium, who is a Shard, would be capable of controlling many people at once (see: Ruin and the Inquisitors and the Koloss).

We have a WoB from a question about Odium doing things like Ruin that says if Odium is trying to influence someone, it's through the Unmade. So I take that as given...

[Calderis]

46 minutes ago, Wreith said:

We have a WoB from a question about Odium doing things like Ruin that says if Odium is trying to influence someone, it's through the Unmade. So I take that as given...

That WoB actually shows both options. With humans, it has to be indirect through the Unmade, but the listener bond with the Spren allows for direct control via the Spren itself. 

Quote

zas678 (paraphrased)

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that's what allows Odium to take control of them.

zas678 (paraphrased)

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created, so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

 

[Wreith]

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That WoB actually shows both options. With humans, it has to be indirect through the Unmade, but the listener bond with the Spren allows for direct control via the Spren itself. 

 

oh, you are correct, but that's not the one I was thinking of.

There was one where the questions was specifically about Ruin changing text.

 

edit: I can't find what I was thinking of. I may have lost my mind. It's fine...

Edited October 20, 2017 by Wreith

[Caevita]

2 hours ago, AngelDeath said:

When i first read WoR i assumed that when Listeners whet into stormform they all became like Eshonai. That they lost part of they minds, and something else took over. But looking back on it a lot of Eshonai's action in stormform don't add up with that assumption. If every Listener in stormform fell under the control of Odium then it seams like the first thing stormform Eshonai would do would be to gather all the smartest, freest thinking Listeners and get them into stormform. As a way to neutralize any opposition. Instead she dose the opposite. She seams afraid of anyone too smart going into stormform. She picks out people who take orders easily, and don't think for themselves as the first ones to take on stormform. At first i thought she didn't want strong willed people transforming because they might be able to brake out of being controlled. But then Eshonai super strong willed herself and that doesn't stop her from being controlled.   I'm guessing that stormform, and the other 'forms of the gods' make Listeners more pron to hatred, and violence, and open up a doorway for Odium to control them. But that he can only control a few at once. Probably only 9. I think the 9 people Odium is controlling (both Listeners, and humans bonded to voidspren) are spread all over Roshar. And that Eshonai was the only Listener on the Shattered Plains directly under Odium's control.                         

Honestly, I think it's most likely that parshendi in stormform are a bit like the Inquisitors in books 2 and 3 of Mistborn. If Ruin wasn't directly controlling Marsh, then Marsh had some degree of free will, but Ruin's influence was still a lot more significant that making Marsh "prone" to certain actions/feelings.

Also, Eshonai's decision to keep the strong-willed away from stormform may have stemmed from her desire for absolute power more than anything. She might have killed Venli if she thought she could get away with it - not because Venli feared stormform or even because Venli was so strong-willed, but because she was a threat to Eshonai's authority.

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/20/2017 at 11:02 AM, AngelDeath said:

She seems afraid of anyone too smart going into stormform. She picks out people who take orders easily, and don't think for themselves as the first ones to take on stormform.

It's Ambition(the trait, not the Shard). People who gain power fear only two things: losing that power, and someone gaining more power. Strength alone will only take you so far. Cleverness can take you further, but both cases require you to want to go far. Without the ambition to achieve, that clever mind and strong body waste away. Most likely, Eshonai understands this, and decides to give great power to those who would serve, rather than lead.

We already have a few examples in the Cosmere:

• Hrathen was worried about Dilaf because of his ambition and instability.
• Odium was worried about Ambition itself in the past. Odium also fears Harmony(more power), but Harmony doesn't have the ambition to act on that power advantage.

On 10/20/2017 at 1:17 PM, Caevita said:

Also, Eshonai's decision to keep the strong-willed away from stormform may have stemmed from her desire for absolute power more than anything. She might have killed Venli if she thought she could get away with it - not because Venli feared stormform or even because Venli was so strong-willed, but because she was a threat to Eshonai's authority.

You have probably described it better than I would have been able to.

[AngelDeath]

On 10/29/2017 at 6:38 AM, The One Who Connects said:

It's Ambition(the trait, not the Shard). People who gain power fear only two things: losing that power, and someone gaining more power. Strength alone will only take you so far. Cleverness can take you further, but both cases require you to want to go far. Without the ambition to achieve, that clever mind and strong body waste away. Most likely, Eshonai understands this, and decides to give great power to those who would serve, rather than lead.

We already have a few examples in the Cosmere:

• Hrathen was worried about Dilaf because of his ambition and instability.
• Odium was worried about Ambition itself in the past. Odium also fears Harmony(more power), but Harmony doesn't have the ambition to act on that power advantage.

You have probably described it better than I would have been able to.

But if she was afraid of others gaining power that implies she still had free will. When Marsh was controlled by Ruin he wasn't able to act in his own interest, or ambition. He just did what Ruin wanted him to. 

[Steelheart]

I took her voice screaming in the back of her head to be unique since she alone (as far as we know) was the only one to not have the proper mindset while Bonding. 

 

“No,” Eshonai said, stepping back from that spren. In a moment of panic, she cast from her mind the preparations that Venli had given her.

“No!”

The spren became a streak of red light and hit her in the chest. Tendrils of red spread outward.

WoR Kindle Loc 7798, emphasis mine

[Shoffart]

On 10/20/2017 at 0:59 PM, Wreith said:

oh, you are correct, but that's not the one I was thinking of.

There was one where the questions was specifically about Ruin changing text.

 

edit: I can't find what I was thinking of. I may have lost my mind. It's fine...

The one you're thinking of is when ruin slitghtly alters written letters to make it seem like vin has to give up the power at the well and later when someone( can't remember who) receives a loving letter that is read as a hateful one. 

Personally I think odium can do this and is in part responsible with so many of the ancient texts of Roshar being vague or destroyed. That was all he managed to do with what limited access he had to Roshar

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Shoffart said:

The one you're thinking of is when ruin slitghtly alters written letters to make it seem like vin has to give up the power at the well and later when someone( can't remember who) receives a loving letter that is read as a hateful one. 

Personally I think odium can do this and is in part responsible with so many of the ancient texts of Roshar being vague or destroyed. That was all he managed to do with what limited access he had to Roshar

Odium isn't able to do this. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/ctqh2mg/?context=3

Quote

Wolfbeckett

Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course.

Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.)

So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.