[OB] Dalinar and the archer - foreshadowing?

[aemetha he/him]

Apologies if this has already been raised. It just occurred to me and there are too many posts to read through to try and figure it out if it has already been noted.

So I wonder if this scene where Dalinar invites the archer into his service might have been intended to set some precedent where Dalinar takes a very pragmatic view of the realities of loyalty (and oaths) to a particular side. I can see that it would give him some degree of forgiveness toward Eshonai because she was very much a soldier. Who I wonder about though, is Szeth. I think the scene may be intended to demonstrate that Dalinar is capable of accepting Szeth into the fold in his new order when he is made aware of the circumstances of Szeths assassination of Gavilar. As is mentioned in the other threads, when it comes to keeping oaths and following the ideals of honor there is nobody who does that as completely as does Szeth. I think the purpose of the scene was less about exploring the history of Dalinar, and more about exploring the character and how he is capable of forgiving what is done in war in service to your cause.

Thoughts?

[Blacksmithki]

It seems in line with that one death rattle (I can't remember the wording) about standing between the one who tried to destroy us (szeth) protecting him from the one who saved my life (Kaladin)

can someone post that one? Pretty sure it was tWoK

Edited October 5, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[aemetha he/him]

This one?

Quote

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds. ”

— Collected on Tanatanev 1173, 18 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed mother of four in her sixty-second year.

It's understood to refer to Kaladin protecting the king from Moash.

Edited October 5, 2017 by aemetha

[Daishi5]

Dalinar's character has some influences from Mongolian history, and Ghengis-Khan is famous for recruiting one of his enemies because the enemy hit him in the neck with an arrow and admitted it to it when they asked the person to come forward.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebe

I don't think there is foreshadowing in the recruitment of Teleb, it is more a call-back to a famous moment in history.

[Salkara]

3 hours ago, aemetha said:

Who I wonder about though, is Szeth. I think the scene may be intended to demonstrate that Dalinar is capable of accepting Szeth into the fold in his new order when he is made aware of the circumstances of Szeths assassination of Gavilar.

I actually don't think there will be an issue there unless something changes. If Szeth shows up with Nale, I don't think Dalinar will be able to do much. He may not be happy with it, but a Herald will outrank Urithiru's new "highking" by huge degree.

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

1 hour ago, Daishi5 said:

Dalinar's character has some influences from Mongolian history, and Ghengis-Khan is famous for recruiting one of his enemies because the enemy hit him in the neck with an arrow and admitted it to it when they asked the person to come forward.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebe

I don't think there is foreshadowing in the recruitment of Teleb, it is more a call-back to a famous moment in history.

We know Sadeas says "another one?" So it appears Dalinar did this more than once.

[Calderis he/him]

51 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I actually don't think there will be an issue there unless something changes. If Szeth shows up with Nale, I don't think Dalinar will be able to do much. He may not be happy with it, but a Herald will outrank Urithiru's new "highking" by huge degree.

Yeah... I don't know about that. First they have to prove they're the Heralds, and next, I don't think the Stormfather is going to speak to highly of the oath breakers that are the Heralds. 

So I guess the Stormfather will be the proof in the same moment he condemns them. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Calderis

[Salkara]

Just now, Calderis said:

Yeah... I don't know about that. First they have to prove their the Heralds, and next, I don't think the Stormfather is going to speak to highly of the oath breakers that are the Heralds. 

I'd be surprised if the Stormfather doesn't name Nale as a Herald. Aside from that, there are the statues of the Heralds in Urithiru (which is how Szeth recognized Nale).

Then it just comes down to who people side with. Based upon things Kadash has said, I think the ardents will follow a Herald over a spren. Aside from the protagonists, I think a lot of the Vorin people in Urithiru will make the same choice, even if they like Dalinar. To most of them, the Heralds are holy, and the Stormfather is something else.

What will be interesting is if/when Nale confirms the Almighty's death.

[Calderis he/him]

@Salkara there's already a split between Dalinar and the Ardentia. This won't change that.

The Heralds trying to take charge is a problem to be dealt with. If they do step in and take over it will be temporary. 

[+Wax he/him]

Genghis Khan also had an unique episode with his wife

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan

Quote

As previously arranged by his father, Temüjin married Börte of the Onggirat tribe when he was around 16 in order to cement alliances between their two tribes. Soon after the marriage, Börte was kidnapped by the Merkitsand reportedly given away as a wife. Temüjin rescued her with the help of his friend and future rival, Jamukha, and his protector, Toghrulof the Keraite tribe. She gave birth to a son, Jochi (1185–1226), nine months later, clouding the issue of his parentage. Despite speculation over Jochi, Börte would be Temüjin's only empress, though he did follow tradition by taking several morganatic wives.^[19]

Börte had three more sons, Chagatai (1187–1241), Ögedei (1189–1241), and Tolui (1190–1232). Genghis Khan also had many other children with his other wives, but they were excluded from succession. The names of at least six daughters are known, and while they played significant roles behind the scenes during his lifetime, no documents have survived that definitively provide the number or names of daughters born to the consorts of Genghis Khan.^[20]

Jeez:  people were falling off way before 60!

Edited October 5, 2017 by axcellence

[Salkara]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Salkara there's already a split between Dalinar and the Ardentia. This won't change that.

The Heralds trying to take charge is a problem to be dealt with. If they do step in and take over it will be temporary. 

I'm not sure any of the Heralds actually will try to take over, but I agree, if they do, it probably won't last that long.

Still, if Nale shows up with Szeth and says, "Yeah, this guy? He's with me," I think Dalinar will back down. I doubt there will be a question of identity. The Stormfather will probably confirm Nale is Nale, and the statues of Nale are good enough that Szeth recognized him. The broken oathpact will probably trouble Dalinar, but I don't think he'll challenge Nale on that.

I mean, Dalinar's best course of action in that scenario is to make good with Nale. In doing so, Dalinar's KR orders have their ranks bolstered with members of the one order which did not disband, and Dalinar gains a possibly significant ally against the ardentia. People might shake their heads when Dalinar says the Almighty is dead and wonder what crazy thing he'll say next, but if/when one of the Heralds says the Almighty is dead... I think that would lend a lot of weight to what Dalinar is saying.

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I mean, Dalinar's best course of action in that scenario is to make good with Nale. In doing so, Dalinar's KR orders have their ranks bolstered with members of the one order which did not disband, and Dalinar gains a possibly significant ally against the ardentia. People might shake their heads when Dalinar says the Almighty is dead and wonder what crazy thing he'll say next, but if/when one of the Heralds says the Almighty is dead... I think that would lend a lot of weight to what Dalinar is saying.

Call me a cynic, but I don't see the Ardentia outside of Urithiru accepting the word of someone claiming to be a Herald who also happens to back Dalinar's claims. 

[Nix]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Call me a cynic, but I don't see the Ardentia outside of Urithiru accepting the word of someone claiming to be a Herald who also happens to back Dalinar's claims. 

I agree. Heck, even the ardents at Urithiru who have experienced some rather insane things at this point are being extremely stubborn. Who cares if the Stormfather is a spren? Until a few weeks ago they still thought the Stormfather was God himself (or something like that). Now they're willing to accept that out of hand but feel differently about their beliefs concerning Honor? They seem to be picking and choosing whatever is convenient to sustain their belief system. Which isn't surprising, frankly. 

[Salkara]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Call me a cynic, but I don't see the Ardentia outside of Urithiru accepting the word of someone claiming to be a Herald who also happens to back Dalinar's claims. 

I fail to see how the ardentia (or any Vorin peoples) outside of Urithiru matter in this scenario. Dalinar wants/needs more surgebinders. Making good with Nale (and Szeth) does this for him. Dalinar also can't have the people in Urithiru being opposed to him. If he pits his word against the ardentia, I think he risks fracturing his support. On the other hand, if one of the Heralds publicly agrees with Dalinar about the Almighty being dead, I think it adds a lot of weight to Dalinar's position.

[Calderis he/him]

1 minute ago, Salkara said:

I fail to see how the ardentia (or any Vorin peoples) outside of Urithiru matter in this scenario. Dalinar wants/needs more surgebinders. Making good with Nale (and Szeth) does this for him. Dalinar also can't have the people in Urithiru being opposed to him. If he pits his word against the ardentia, I think he risks fracturing his support. On the other hand, if one of the Heralds publicly agrees with Dalinar about the Almighty being dead, I think it adds a lot of weight to Dalinar's position.

Do you really think it's beyond people to think he's propping up a lookalike to support false claims? People believe what they want to, and they don't want to believe their God is dead 

[Nix]

4 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I fail to see how the ardentia (or any Vorin peoples) outside of Urithiru matter in this scenario. Dalinar wants/needs more surgebinders. Making good with Nale (and Szeth) does this for him. Dalinar also can't have the people in Urithiru being opposed to him. If he pits his word against the ardentia, I think he risks fracturing his support. On the other hand, if one of the Heralds publicly agrees with Dalinar about the Almighty being dead, I think it adds a lot of weight to Dalinar's position.

Pitting himself against the ardentia is exactly what he's done. He smacked Kadash down and flared stormlight to assert his theological dominance. Basically, "Yeah, I may be a heresy straight out of myth, but I'm a powerful, tangible, and undeniable heresy (who has proven himself consistently honorable." He actively undermined Vorinism to everyone watching. 

[Salkara]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Do you really think it's beyond people to think he's propping up a lookalike to support false claims? People believe what they want to, and they don't want to believe their God is dead 

I agree that people don't want to believe their God is dead, which is why Dalinar needs something more than his word. The word of a guy

• who looks like Nale statues,
• gets called Nale by the Skybreakers,
• named as Nale by the Stormfather,
• who is loaded with ancient fabrial tech and knowledge,
• and who has an honorblade (and can probably do some pretty outrageous things with it),

will probably go a long ways toward helping Dalinar. Some will probably think he's a fake, but there will also probably be quite a few who are convinced Nale is Nale.

[Solant he/him]

For some reason I had just assumed the flash back with the archer was just a roundabout way of relating the story of how he earned his nickname. If I remember right, the arrows were black.

[Mulk he/him]

I'm with Calderis in this - people disbelieve reality if it's not what they want it to be all the time.  I think we're going to have a religious battle (even if it's "only" words and not actual fighting) and it will get ugly.

I'm also with Salkara - what will probably help Dalinar in the whole is this guy (or these people if Nale winds up bringing Ishar, Jezrien, Ash and all along for the ride) a Herald or no is all of the knowledge he/they will have of times before, of tech they don't likely currently have along with specifics on Surgebinding skills that have been lost to time.

But in reality, some will refuse to believe in spite of proof.  That's life.  I mean really, people still smoke, drink excessively, drive while texting and a whole slew of other bad habits in spite of all of the deaths these things have caused.  I expect it to be nasty between Dalinar and the ardents and that it won't be fully resolved within this book or possibly the whole Stormlight Archive.