[OB] The problem with Veil *emperor's soul spoilers*

[kmosiman]

Not to split the discussion Shallan's mental state, but I think I see why Pattern is getting scared and it has to do with Forging and I want to stay within the forum rules 

The new more detailed version of Veil takes a lot more stormlight to produce but very little to maintain. Pattern seems pretty happy with it because it's interesting. Shallan's other transformations are less interesting because they are more like makeup or giving herself a pep talk. 

This reminds me of Shai's normal essence marks. Each of these change her history so that she spent more time as a slightly different person, a warrior, a scholar, and a beggar, which allows her to adapt as needed. This is a much deeper transformation than Shallan's illusions, but with each of these Shai still knows her true past and can break the stamp before the 24 hour mark.

This issue I'm seeing with Veil is that Shallan seems to be going towards Shai's final essence mark. With this mark Shai would forget that she is a Forger and live out a normal life. The mark would also convince her to renew the stamp every day so she'd never let the spell fade.

I think Shallan could take this path with Veil. Once she has fully fleshed out Veil's entire history she could fully become her.

While Shallan's Lightweaving will eventually run out of juice, she also has the ability to Soulcast. With this power she should be able to make the change permanent. At this point Shallan would no longer exist, only Veil would remain. Either that or she could come up with a convincing enough lie to explain to her new self why the spheres around her kept growing dark. As long as she kept away from people who could make her remember, she'd never have to.

[OrangeJedi he/him]

Good theory! I like it and it makes sense but I don't know if that is were the book is going. What I can see is "Veil" becoming more like an essence mark, having a more fleshed out background story. I just don't think that Shallon permanently becoming Veil would make a good plot element.

[kmosiman]

I hope that she doesn't as well; but I can see the risk and why it would be tempting. 

We don't know what Dalinar asked for yet, but my current theory is that he asked to forget what he did to the people who killed his wife (which was gory enough that the soldier quit and became an Ardent). His curse was forgetting why he did it (his wife).

The problem I see with Shallan is that she also wants to forget. The difference is that she is actively working to improve her own illusion (delusion) that she is someone how hasn't gone through the same history. If she manages to block off those memories (again) and replace them with new ones; she could become a person that would never have become a Lightweaver.

[Sliverofnone]

I think this is really close to the mark. There are definitely similarities between Shai's testing of soul stamps and Shallan's attempts to create an identity. So far we have only seen Shallan disguised as someone else, but not really becoming someone else, until the OB chapters, where she has really began to make a change similar to Shai's essence marks. I think this will definitely be the struggle for her character. 

We kind of saw this with Brightness Radiant, I think, when she drew Adolin in a stance and strike and was able to replicate it. It would make sense that Shallan's powers allow her to forge her soul into a different version of herself with different experiences, just like Shai. But I think that she could also transform herself into someone completely different and lose herself in the identity, as you suggest. This should be a very interesting read.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Sliverofnone

[aemetha he/him]

I agree, this was the same thought I had about Shallan's character development. To me that makes much more sense than a conscious development of an unconscious mental disorder (DID). It can be related back to something stated about the order of Lightweavers in Words of Radiance too.

Quote

Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault. 

Seems like far more than a simple artistic impression if it so profoundly restored morale of the orders after a great defeat. Perhaps this, if it is shown to be the case can affect more than just the lightweaver.

Edited October 4, 2017 by aemetha

[Nebty]

48 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Seems like far more than a simple artistic impression if it so profoundly restored morale of the orders after a great defeat. Perhaps this, if it is shown to be the case can affect more than just the lightweaver.

We've already seen Shallan do something like this. When she convinced the deserters to become heroes in Words of Radiance.

Quote

“They listened,” Pattern said, buzzing from beside her. “You changed them.”

“I can’t believe it worked,” Shallan said.

“Ah . . . You are good with lies.”

“No, I mean, that was a figure of speech. It seems impossible that they’d actually listen to me. Hardened criminals.”

“You are lies and truth,” Pattern said softly. “They transform.

And she continued that transformation later when she started drawing their portraits.

This is one of the most interesting things about Lightweavers for me; their ability to inspire by showing people what they could be. It's also deeply tied to Shallan's personas (and now we can see the unhealthy flip-side of it in the new chapters). Shallan hates herself, and imagines herself as someone else in order to do the things she needs to do, because deep down she doesn't think that she's capable enough.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Nebty