Do we have evidence for Future-Sight being of the Voidbringers?

[Stormcrown]

Re-reading Words of Radiance, and when Szeth attacks in the Castle/Palace the first time, Syl and Pattern both warned of Odium's actions, saying something bad is going to happen/he's coming. Syl and Pattern both seem to lose control of themselves as well.

Szeth is attacking due to Taravangian being able to "See the Future" from the Nightwatcher's Boon/Bane. 

We know that Cultivation can see the future, but this absolutely suggestions that Odium is the one responsible for Taravangian's actions, who assumes he is saving the world. 

Would this be evidence to support Odium/Rayse corrupting things much like Ruin did in Mistborn? Did he corrupt something of Cultivation's to make it happen? Does Syl/Pattern's behavior support Odium corrupting/manipulating them?

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by Stormcrown

[The One Who Connects he/him]

9 minutes ago, Wreith said:

I don't suppose you could find that theory?

Sure. It's come up from multiple people across multiple threads, so there's some new info for me too.

---

A Line from the Kaza Interlude that started the discussion.

Spoiler

"There are those who can pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds."

From Blightsong back in May(after the Kaza Interlude was read at a signing)

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In the first Dalinar chapter in WoR he is in a vision set in the purelake. Him and a bunch of other soldiers, including a radiant, are hunting for a spren that has been "touched", or corrupted, by something named Sja-anat. The title of this chapter? Taker of Secrets.

It makes a lot of sense to me that something that can take over cognitive entities would be able to extract information from someone after they died and before they passed to the beyond.

From Kimni back in August.

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Maybe all Moelach does is tweak that so people can see a glimpse of the future before they are actually completely dead?

Though that does leave the question why, and if all death rattles are actually the future, since some seem to reference the past. Perhaps Moelach is just gathering as much information as possible because he (she? it?) can't target anything specifically? In the hopes that if there are enough death rattles, eventually there will be something important (king of quantity over quality)?

I think the ability to see the future after death is something the Unmade can't do, so they tap random dying humans for information?

From Calderis in September.

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My reasoning for that is that the death rattles, outside of Taravangian's harvesting, are largely ignored (somewhat intentionally as they make people uncomfortable) as "dying delirium." I don't think that the rattles are meant to mislead, because I think they're a side effect of something else. 

When Moelach seeps into a soul, it think he's taking information from that person's memory. Probably things that they aren't even aware that they know. But this is a two-way street, which allows the dying person a glimpse into the spiritual realm. 

So I'm in agreement that Taravangian is on a side path that is probably more harmful then the slight bits of information he gain are helpful, but I don't believe that the rattles are intentionally misleading (just so vague that they're easily misinterpreted), because this would require them to be the point of what Moelach does. I don't think that's the case. 

[Wreith he/him]

To answer the posts title

WoR ch.23 epigraph

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"Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to foresee. / As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. / A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens."

 

My theory is that Odium is corrupting the diagram, not directly rewriting, but by providing the Deathrattles that are being used to supplement it. I don't necessarily think the original diagram was something of Odium or that the original words have been changed. This could obviously be wildly wrong as we're only aware of a small portion of the diagram

 

Again with the Syl and Pattern possibly being manipulated, there is evidence provided in Dalinar's vision at the Purelake that another of the Unmade is capable of corrupting spren it comes into contact with. I doubt that happened in the scene you're referencing. I think they were just aware and anxious about events

 

I also think we have a WoB that Odium can't really affect things the way Ruin did, but I'd have to hunt it.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Wreith

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 minutes ago, Wreith said:

1 hour ago, Stormcrown said:

Would this be evidence to support Odium/Rayse corrupting things much like Ruin did in Mistborn?

I also think we have a WoB that Odium can't really affect things the way Ruin did, but I'd have to hunt it.

It's something that Odium can do, but pulling a Ruin is not really "his thing."

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Blightsong

Can Odium change written word on Roshar like Ruin could on Scadrial? (I was wondering this because it would make it easy for him to manipulate Mr.T that way.

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehensive* This is not really a thing that Odium does. Um, yea.

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17 minutes ago, Wreith said:

To answer the posts title

WoR ch.23 epigraph

Of note in that epigraph is "As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered."
The Parshendi Gods are "of Odium," so I'd imagine that nightform was something separate. We'll have to wait until we learn what Spren a Listener has to bond to enter nightform.

21 minutes ago, Wreith said:

My theory is that Odium is corrupting the diagram, not directly rewriting, but by providing the Death Rattles that are being used to supplement it.

I've seen a theory around somewhere that Moelach is using the Death Rattles as a source of information, rather than corrupting them. When a person gets close to death, the barriers between realms weaken, and they can see into them. A glimpse into the SR would show some manner of information they couldn't get normally, maybe even a hint of the future. I think the Rattles are legit, but maybe not a good idea to use either way.

1 hour ago, Stormcrown said:

When Szeth attacks in the Castle/Palace the first time, Syl and Pattern both warned of Odium's actions, saying something bad is going to happen/he's coming. Syl and Pattern both seem to lose control of themselves as well.

Pattern said something too? Forgot about that..  Anyway, Syl said "He's coming. The one who hates."
I felt like the "One who Hates" would be Odium, as it appears you believe as well. However, I think that's literally about Odium, rather than Szeth. Bringing up Ruin, he could appear before people, he could focus his gaze on a specific portion of the world. Perhaps Odium was doing the same. The Spren would probably sense his presence in a similar way to how Vin could sense Ruin via bronze pulses.
Spren are primarily Cognitive, so Odium's presence would probably rattle them a lot more than Ruin did to Vin. That could explain their erratic behavior. The sudden realization of "We need to leave. NOW", the panic and the fear, that stuff makes humans act rather crazed, why wouldn't a Spren follow suit?

[Wreith he/him]

46 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I've seen a theory around somewhere that Moelach is using the Death Rattles as a source of information, rather than corrupting them. When a person gets close to death, the barriers between realms weaken, and they can see into them. A glimpse into the SR would show some manner of information they couldn't get normally, maybe even a hint of the future. I think the Rattles are legit, but maybe not a good idea to use either way.

I don't suppose you could find that theory?

The Diagram epigraph about Moelach seems to indicate that he causes the deathrattles. I guess I just assumed he also supplied the content, but it makes sense that Odium is getting glimpses of the cognitive realm to use for his own information, he just can't/doesn't bother to control who else hears it. I hadn't considered it that way.

 

I'll just edit this since I was the last to post.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1097

The first one is the WoB I had in mind when I responded here initially

Edited October 3, 2017 by Wreith
found WoB

[Stormcrown]

 

19 hours ago, Wreith said:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1097

The first one is the WoB I had in mind when I responded here initially

Seems like Brandon was able to dodge answering the question we are thinking of, as his answer talked specifically about Odium directly controlling people the same way as Ruin. The magic systems of Roshar are different enough that it wouldn't technically be the "Same" thing. If Odium influences spren which influences people, then it is different but the end result can be quite similar. 

20 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Blightsong

Can Odium change written word on Roshar like Ruin could on Scadrial? (I was wondering this because it would make it easy for him to manipulate Mr.T that way.

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehensive* This is not really a thing that Odium does. Um, yea.

The apprehensive answer makes me a little suspicious still. Like, Brandon knows that Odium does something similar and was debating if saying no was a lie or not. Especially considering the question only says "written word".

Seems like we don't really get anything more specific than that. There is some Oathbringer stuff that I'm thinking of now, but I'll have to put that in the other board.

[Wreith he/him]

5 minutes ago, Stormcrown said:

Seems like Brandon was able to dodge answering the question we are thinking of, as his answer talked specifically about Odium directly controlling people the same way as Ruin. The magic systems of Roshar are different enough that it wouldn't technically be the "Same" thing. If Odium influences spren which influences people, then it is different but the end result can be quite similar.

The end of that response is what I take as relevant to this question.

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So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

We've seen one Unmade corrupt lesser-spren, but nothing points to corruption of information or direct control of individuals. The Thrill is the closest we've got to the latter and we've seen characters actively ignore it.

 

Also, in regard to OP, Tanavast implies that all of the Shards have *some* ability to see the future, Cultivation is just better at it than he was. His statements don't even mean that she is the best at it among the shards. It is theoretically possible that Odium is better at it than she is, though I suspect not.

[Stormcrown]

@Wreith Good points all around, I agree. I've spent little time talking with other Cosmere-fans, and there's a ton of WoB's and stuff that I need to catch up on.

The Unmade are a fun mystery to unwrap. They are splinters of Odium, so I believe that would allow Brandon to say Odium doesn't do any of those things, right?

[Wreith he/him]

5 minutes ago, Stormcrown said:

so I believe that would allow Brandon to say Odium doesn't do any of those things, right?

I think it's safe to say that Brandon could say Odium doesn't do something because the Unmade are the ones that technically do it, yes