What was Adonalsium?

[Fakeout]

I was browsing through forum discussions on here and I found this quote in a topic about the Nightwatcher: 

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Questioner

Speaking of the Stormfather, would the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren be on the same level of spren as the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

...The Nightwatcher, yes. Um... There are, I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also much-- a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that's what Cusicesh is.

Questioner

So the Nightwatcher is a spren you'd say?

Brandon Sanderson

The Nightwatcher-- I mean, they call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That's what they would call-- that's what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive.

Bystander

Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

So they would call Nightblood a spren. They would call-- That's the word for what all of these things are. They would probably've called Adonalsium a spren…

What stood out to me more about this quote though was the bit about Adonalsium at the end. Maybe I've just missed this or something, but I personally believed Adonalsium to be the original Power of Creation that was held by a person similar to how people hold the Shards. I believe Brandon referred to Adonalsium as a "he" at one point, which may not necessarily have been a reveal of any sort. However, there was also this quote from Khriss in Secret History:

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"Anyway, there was a God. Adonalsium. I don't know if it was a force or a being, though I suspect the latter. Sixteen people, together, killed Adonalsium, ripping it apart and dividing its essence between them, becoming the first who Ascended." 

So it's seems Khriss also believed Adonalsium to be a being holding the power. However, the bit at the end of the WOB seems to be Brandon slipping out that Adonalsium was the original, whole Power of Creation that had become sentient, similar to a Splinter, which is a known property of Investiture when not held by a being for a time. This idea seems very cool to me, as when Brandon writes the Dragonsteel books and we learn more about Adonalsium, it would be very interesting to see what kind of mind a pure force/energy like that would have, especially when not influenced by the intents of the sixteen Shards. I would expect it to really be a God figure in temperament, because Brandon has said that the intents of the Shards were loosely inspired by attributes of deity. The fact that Adonalsium would be a sentient being of pure energy from the Cosmere rather than a human or other mortal being given that power could also lend Adonalsium credibility as a true God figure in the eyes of some. And from what we've seen of The Liar of Partinel potentially implying that Adonalsium was destroying Yolen through the fain life, it would be interesting to see what potentially went wrong in its mind, since it could be some effect of the Investiture. This could also be the reason the sixteen Shattered Adonalsium, because its Investure mind went wrong somehow and they believed that humans/other species needed to hold the power to prevent this. 

I think it could ultimately go either way (Adonalsium being a being or sentient Investiture) but if Adonalsium really was pure sentient Investiture, I'd be very excited to read more about that.  Let me know if this was already commonly accepted information though. 

[Calderis he/him]

Eh. I think that Rosharans would call any sentient investiture a Spren. If they weren't so busy deifying their Shards, they'd have called them spren too. 

[Ciridae]

I guess it boils down to whether or not Adonalsium had a vessel, but I honestly doubt it. Brandon has said that a theme of the cosmere is what happens to mortals who have been given the power of gods, how that power influences them and how they chose to wield it. Adonalsium was that power, the story is about how it came to be in the hands of mortals. The shift in power should be from god to mortal, not from mortal to mortal. 

This is just personal preference, but I think the story of sentient investiture is more interesting. A mortal who gets all that power is going to be colored by their own history, their own perception, their own aspirations, their own set of morals. We see how this plays out in 16 different ways already. Adonalsium should be something more than just a bigger shard with balanced intents.

[Stormcrown]

We know that Adonalsium created Roshar, the continent, specifically. It is of his touch and design. (Second letter and WoB, saying he designed continent.).

How would Adonalsium do that if he wasn't sentient?

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Stormcrown said:

We know that Adonalsium created Roshar, the continent, specifically. It is of his touch and design. (Second letter and WoB, saying he designed continent.).

How would Adonalsium do that if he wasn't sentient?

Investiture doesn't need a Vessel to become sentient. The argument is whether it had a Vessel or not. 

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Argent

You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)?

Brandon Sanderson

Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.)

 

[Stormcrown]

@Calderis Ah, I agree then. I recall Brandon referring to Adonalsium as a He, but that doesn't indicate a vessel.

With the information at hand it easily could be either, but no vessel makes more sense to me. It's why Shattering Adonalsium might've been their own option, a vessel to direct the power could've given them options that were previously impossible.

Is it assumed thats what the Bondsmith Spren are? Before Honor's cognitive Shadow combined with the Stormfather that is.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Stormcrown

[Fakeout]

12 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I guess it boils down to whether or not Adonalsium had a vessel, but I honestly doubt it. Brandon has said that a theme of the cosmere is what happens to mortals who have been given the power of gods, how that power influences them and how they chose to wield it. Adonalsium was that power, the story is about how it came to be in the hands of mortals. The shift in power should be from god to mortal, not from mortal to mortal. 

This is just personal preference, but I think the story of sentient investiture is more interesting. A mortal who gets all that power is going to be colored by their own history, their own perception, their own aspirations, their own set of morals. We see how this plays out in 16 different ways already. Adonalsium should be something more than just a bigger shard with balanced intents.

You did a much better job of explaining my points concisely, I was having a hard time explaining what I meant by Adonalsium being sentient without a Vessel because I'd forgotten about that term.

2 hours ago, Stormcrown said:

@Calderis Ah, I agree then. I recall Brandon referring to Adonalsium as a He, but that doesn't indicate a vessel.

With the information at hand it easily could be either, but no vessel makes more sense to me. It's why Shattering Adonalsium might've been their own option, a vessel to direct the power could've given them options that were previously impossible.

Is it assumed thats what the Bondsmith Spren are? Before Honor's cognitive Shadow combined with the Stormfather that is.

 

 

Spren are referred to as male or female so I don't see Adonalsium being a him as a problem. 

Adonalsium would be similar to the Stormfather but with vastly more Investiture, excluding the influence of a Cognitive Shadow. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 9/30/2017 at 5:07 PM, Stormcrown said:

I recall Brandon referring to Adonalsium as a He, but that doesn't indicate a vessel.

Well you see, Brandon uses he because it's faster(same reason we abbreviate Taravangian to Mr. T and Adonalsium to Andy on here) He doesn't seem to use "they" as an all-purpose gender neutral term like I do, so he had to clarify that his usage of "he" meant absolutely nothing regarding vessels or gender,

On 9/30/2017 at 5:07 PM, Stormcrown said:

Is it assumed that's what the Bondsmith Spren are? Before Honor's cognitive Shadow combined with the Stormfather that is.

Spren are investiture that has gained sentience yes. That's Nahel Spren in general(not just Bondsmiths) due to their nature as Splinters. Seons and Skaze would count as well. Investiture that has gained sentience.

[Fakeout]

On 9/28/2017 at 7:32 AM, Calderis said:

Eh. I think that Rosharans would call any sentient investiture a Spren. If they weren't so busy deifying their Shards, they'd have called them spren too. 

I see what you mean, but the Shards (that haven't been killed by Odium) aren't sentient Investiture though, are they? Because they are held by a Vessel that directs the powers actions. I took what Brandon said about Honor in the OP to mean that if they knew Honor had been killed and was a Cognitive Shadow, they would call it a spren. They might confuse Odium or Cultivation for spren but so far that hasn't happened with Odium, and they would be technically wrong since the Investiture doesn't currently have sentience on its own for those two Shards.

[Calderis he/him]

40 minutes ago, Fakeout said:

I see what you mean, but the Shards (that haven't been killed by Odium) aren't sentient Investiture though, are they? Because they are held by a Vessel that directs the powers actions. I took what Brandon said about Honor in the OP to mean that if they knew Honor had been killed and was a Cognitive Shadow, they would call it a spren. They might confuse Odium or Cultivation for spren but so far that hasn't happened with Odium, and they would be technically wrong since the Investiture doesn't currently have sentience on its own for those two Shards.

Except their not just "holding it" anymore are they. While holding a Shard a Vessel is no longer considered human by Brandon, but if they were to put it down they'd be a Splinter, and presumably return to their human self. 

They no longer have a physical body, but are incorporated into the Shard. Just because the sentience that guides them wasn't originally investiture, doesn't mean that it isn't now. 

That's my personal opinion of it anyway. 

[Fakeout]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Except their not just "holding it" anymore are they. While holding a Shard a Vessel is no longer considered human by Brandon, but if they were to put it down they'd be a Splinter, and presumably return to their human self. 

They no longer have a physical body, but are incorporated into the Shard. Just because the sentience that guides them wasn't originally investiture, doesn't mean that it isn't now. 

That's my personal opinion of it anyway. 

Good points.

The original theory though still has potential. Brandon said, "The more investiture clumped together, the more likely [it is for Investiture to gain sentience] -- and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain." Would having Investiture at least equal to sixteen times the amount of the Shards before they separated to their different planets give it greater intelligence than humans? Also, I agree with Ciridae:

On 9/30/2017 at 7:07 AM, Ciridae said:

I guess it boils down to whether or not Adonalsium had a vessel, but I honestly doubt it. Brandon has said that a theme of the cosmere is what happens to mortals who have been given the power of gods, how that power influences them and how they chose to wield it. Adonalsium was that power, the story is about how it came to be in the hands of mortals. The shift in power should be from god to mortal, not from mortal to mortal. 

This is just personal preference, but I think the story of sentient investiture is more interesting. A mortal who gets all that power is going to be colored by their own history, their own perception, their own aspirations, their own set of morals. We see how this plays out in 16 different ways already. Adonalsium should be something more than just a bigger shard with balanced intents.

Brandon does like doing the unexpected, and having Adonalsium just be a "bigger shard with balanced intents" seems too much like the simple answer that I'm sure Brandon has some kind of unique twist on it.

It would speak volumes of the original sixteen and those involved in the Shattering that though they might have thought they were doing the right thing, they had the naïveté to interfere in what would essentially be a natural process/force of nature/God and split up the power between themselves believing that they could do the job better. It kind of has an element of man vs nature in it. I really like the idea personally, though there isn't really any hard evidence. I'm excited to see what Brandon has in store for us. 

[Guest]

When you think about the prospect of a vessel, though, a vessel has to be human, right? So, if Adonalsium created the first humans, how could he be a human? Also, if he created everthing, what created him? We know what happened after he was shattered, but I think an equally important question when regarding the identity of Adonalsium is what happened before he was shattered? When he made the world? When he made the whole cosmere? It would make more sense if he were actually a mass of power become sentient, seeing also as order/entropy stuff. The universe degrades from order to entropy, so why shouldn't the Cosmere? It would be quite fitting if it all began as tiny ball of incredible power and slowly degraded over time. Any other ideas?

[Calderis he/him]

35 minutes ago, Krypton Savant said:

When you think about the prospect of a vessel, though, a vessel has to be human, right? So, if Adonalsium created the first humans, how could he be a human? Also, if he created everthing, what created him? We know what happened after he was shattered, but I think an equally important question when regarding the identity of Adonalsium is what happened before he was shattered? When he made the world? When he made the whole cosmere? It would make more sense if he were actually a mass of power become sentient, seeing also as order/entropy stuff. The universe degrades from order to entropy, so why shouldn't the Cosmere? It would be quite fitting if it all began as tiny ball of incredible power and slowly degraded over time. Any other ideas?

A vessel does not have to be human, it just needs to be a sapient being. Not all of the current Vessels were human. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 10/4/2017 at 7:11 PM, Calderis said:

While holding a Shard a Vessel is no longer considered human by Brandon, but if they were to put it down they'd be a Splinter, and presumably return to their human self. 

Shouldn't this be "Sliver"?

On 10/7/2017 at 11:20 PM, Krypton Savant said:

1. When you think about the prospect of a vessel, though, a vessel has to be human, right?
2. So, if Adonalsium created the first humans, how could he be a human?
3. Also, if he created everything, what created him? We know what happened after he was shattered, but I think an equally important question when regarding the identity of Adonalsium is what happened before he was shattered. When he made the world. When he made the whole Cosmere.

1. As Calderis stated, sapience is the requirement. We know for a fact that not all of the original vessels were human, and odds are favorable that not all of the current vessels are either.
   • We also know that Investiture can attain Sapience on its own. I'd call that process something akin to a Shard creating a Vessel for itself(which is what I think happened)
2. He doesn't have to be. It is entirely possible that Adonalsium was from a species that predates humans. An extragalactic species from outside the Cosmere, an extradimensional species(like Calamity, oh wait.. ) etc.. Do I think he is any of those? No, but the possibility remains open.
3. I'd like to talk to you about the Big Bang... We don't know how our own universe was actually created, so this query is not getting answered in Cosmere either.
   • Of note, Roshar(the Continent) is based off the Julia Set. Roshar was specifically "grown by Adonalsium." Combining those two, some conclusions can be drawn(by those more educated than I, as I'm not yet sure what the significance of the Julia Set is on Earth)

[Calderis he/him]

22 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Shouldn't this be "Sliver"?

Yes. Yes it should.