[OB] Parshendi/Listeners vs Parshmen vs Voidbringers

[Guest Edonidd]

Things just aren't adding up between the way I am understanding things and the way some other people seem to understand things based on comments I have consistently read on this forum.  So i thought I'd throw this thread out there to see if we can all get on the same page.

I'm not even 100% sure of the races actual name, but will call the race as a whole "Ancient Ones" as I think that's what the spren have called them.  We know they were on Roshan before humans, possibly the dominant native race.  Known to have 4 genders Male, Female, Malen, and Femalen (male and female neutrals, not child bearing)

Parshmen = Ancient Ones who are not bonded to a spren.  Also called slaveform by the Listeners.  They are considered to have "no soul."

Parshendi = The Listeners = a splinter group of the Ancient Ones on the Shattered Plains who were voidbringers but rebelled against Odium and their gods/the unmade.  They did this by intentionally taking on dull form.

Known Parshendi forms; 

1.  Dullform = very similar to Slaveform, but seems to still be bonded to some type of spren.  Can become this form on purpose, but also on accident.

2.  Workform = bigger stronger better almost direct upgrade over dullform.  

3.  Nimbleform = not as big or strong or enduring as workform but more... nimble also more dexterous and possibly smarter.  

4.  Mateform = basically like an animal in heat.  Hard time thinking about or doing much of anything beside making baby Ancient Ones.  

5.  Warform = bigger stronger faster than Workform.  Also more violent as workform doesn't fight.  Have armor carapace growing outside of their skin.

Voidbringers = Ancient Ones who were bonded to void spren.  Implications are "all" have red eyes.  Controlled by their gods who we believe to be the unmade.

Known Voidbringer forms;

1.  Stormform = bigger stronger faster than warform.  Not armor carapace, but some armored bone sticks through the skin.  Can control lightning to an unknown degree.  Called the everstorm by 20-30,000 gathering and singing/chanting. 

 

 

We also know from edgedancer that there are/were other splinter groups of Ancient Ones who were still voidbringers.  Possibly other "good guys" like the parshendi exist. 

 

It is implied that Mateform is the only parshendi form that can make babies.  But not sure if that's absolute.  Assumed that slaveform/parshmen can have the babies too.  Not clear what the lifespan of any form of Ancient Ones is, nor what kind of baby making logistics they use.  I assume they're live births like humans and probably one at a time with occasional twins or whatever.  If they were laying eggs, or having cremling babies, or huge clutches of 5+ at a time I feel like differences that big would have been mentioned.

 

Now some logistics that I feel the big discrepancies are coming from.  

Parshmen-slaveform have no spren bond.  I feel like if they are in a storm they get bonded by a voidspren with no choice.  If there is one around.

Parshendi of any form already have a spren.  They only change if they want to.  Thats why Eshonai forced everyone to volunteer.   They're also not of Odium, and aren't by any means inclined to do "evil" voidy things.  Many are just the opposite.

[BlackYeti he/him]

I agree with most of what you've put here, but there are a couple of things that need clarification.

The name of the species is actually the listeners (note that this name is not capitalised; in the same way that you wouldn't capitalise the name of any other species).

The Parshendi is the name of the nation of listeners on the Shattered Plains (hence Parshendi is capitalised).

Mateform is a specialisation: other forms are capable of mating, however, the vast majority are completely asexual.

[Guest Edonidd]

4 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I agree with most of what you've put here, but there are a couple of things that need clarification.

The name of the species is actually the listeners (note that this name is not capitalised; in the same way that you wouldn't capitalise the name of any other species).

The Parshendi is the name of the nation of listeners on the Shattered Plains (hence Parshendi is capitalised).

Mateform is a specialisation: other forms are capable of mating, however, the vast majority are completely asexual.

 

Is it specific individuals that are then of the 4 different genders?  I guess I had it in my head that for instance everyone in mateform became male or female.  While everyone in Warform was malen or femalen?  Could there be male and female in warform?  Likewise could there possibly be malen and femalen in mateform? 

[BlackYeti he/him]

20 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

Is it specific individuals that are then of the 4 different genders?  I guess I had it in my head that for instance everyone in mateform became male or female.  While everyone in Warform was malen or femalen?  Could there be male and female in warform?  Likewise could there possibly be malen and femalen in mateform? 

I believe that male/malen listeners swap between those genders as they change form (likewise with female/femalen listeners). 
Warform is an asexual form, so all warform listeners are either malen or femalen. And likewise, all mateform listeners are either male or female. Possibly there are outliers that we haven't heard about, but certainly, this is true for the overwhelming majority.

Presumably, dullform is sexual to some extent at least, since there was a time when the listeners knew of no other forms, and they still had to reproduce. And the same must apply to the parshmen as well by the same reasoning.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, BlackYeti said:

The name of the species is actually the listeners (note that this name is not capitalised; in the same way that you wouldn't capitalise the name of any other species).

The Parshendi is the name of the nation of listeners on the Shattered Plains (hence Parshendi is capitalised).

Actually Parshendi is just the Alethi name for Listeners, and Listeners is the name this tribe has chosen for themselves. We've not been given an actual name for the species. 

Quote

AHOYMATEY

Are the Parshendi at the village the only Parshendi there are? Besides the parshmen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Parshendi as a people were all at Narak. Barring any scouts and things like that. That doesn't mean that there might not be any other Parshmen out there that have bonded spren, but they would not have been part of this nation – any more than if you found another human that they may not necessarily be American.

The Listeners is the name of this particular nation of Parshendi/Parshmen 

[DiamondMind he/him]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Actually Parshendi is just the Alethi name for Listeners, and Listeners is the name this tribe has chosen for themselves. We've not been given an actual name for the species. 

The Listeners is the name of this particular nation of Parshendi/Parshmen 

The WoB you quoted doesn't say this, only that the Parshendi are a nation as @BlackYeti said. "Listeners" could be how all people of that race refer to themselves. I think for now Parshmen/listeners/voidbringers, or maybe slaveform/sprenform/voidform (or some such) are the best distinctions we have.

[BlackYeti he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Actually Parshendi is just the Alethi name for Listeners, and Listeners is the name this tribe has chosen for themselves. We've not been given an actual name for the species. 

The Listeners is the name of this particular nation of Parshendi/Parshmen 

That WoB does not support your claim. Yes, the Parshendi is a human name for the nation of listeners on the Shattered Plains (and I did not claim otherwise). But it says nowhere that the listeners is an alternative name for that nation.

The name "listener" is consistently left uncapitalised throughout Words of Radiance which implies that it is not the name of the nation. For example:

Quote

The listeners had learned that capturing spren was possible from the humans, then had figured out the process on their own.

I-4, Last Legion

Quote

For the listeners, there was a certain romanticism to going out in the storm. Yes, the storms were terrible—but every listener would have to spend a number of nights out in them, alone. The songs said that someone seeking a new form would be protected. She wasn’t certain if this was fancy or fact, but the songs didn’t prevent most listeners from hiding in a cleft of rock to avoid the stormwall, then coming out once it had passed.

I-5, The Rider of Storms

 

[Calderis he/him]

@DiamondMind Brandon answered the questioner with the wording that they had used.

@BlackYeti the answer makes absolutely no sense if the listeners is not the name of the tribe. Parshendi is not a name they ever call themselves, and as it is used, the word itself would apply to any Parshmen who'd bonded a spren. It's literally "Parshmen who can think" it would not differentiate between Parshendi nations/tribes. Their own identification would. 

[DiamondMind he/him]

@Calderis I think we'll have to wait for another WoB on this one, because I read it narrowly as Brandon specifically referring to the Parshendi nation when answering the question. Yes, it is technically the Alethi name for that nation and not their own, but that's the only way we have to refer to that group right now. "Listener," since it is uncapitilized and is a description, is more likely to be a name for the race of which the Parshendi are a nation of.

[BlackYeti he/him]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@DiamondMind Brandon answered the questioner with the wording that they had used.

@BlackYeti the answer makes absolutely no sense if the listeners is not the name of the tribe. Parshendi is not a name they ever call themselves, and as it is used, the word itself would apply to any Parshmen who'd bonded a spren. It's literally "Parshmen who can think" it would not differentiate between Parshendi nations/tribes. Their own identification would. 

Brandon frequently corrects people, so I find the argument that he's simply regurgitating the questioner's incorrect terminology entirely unconvincing.

Brandon specifically calls the Parshendi a nation in that WoB, and it's not the only WoB in which he does this:

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

I also asked him about capitalization. He talked about how in modern English, capitalization is boring and doesn't happen often enough, referring back to the Victorian era where they would just capitalize Important Words. I asked him about parshmen vs Parshendi and he said that the Parshendi were a nation.

He also refers to slaveform (parshmen) as listeners here:

Quote

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

I don't see why you think that the initial answer does not make sense if listeners is the name of the species. No, they don't call themselves Parshendi because that is a human name. Why do you think that they must have an exact equivalent?

[Calderis he/him]

The Alethi think of the Parshendi as savages. The word describes them as a thinking group of a near mindless species. "Parshendi" doesn't work to me as a nation, because the Alethi don't think them capable of having nations. They're primitives.

"listener forms" makes perfect sense, as their the only group we've seen who have forms. 

I'll agree to disagree. 

[BlackYeti he/him]

49 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Alethi think of the Parshendi as savages. The word describes them as a thinking group of a near mindless species. "Parshendi" doesn't work to me as a nation, because the Alethi don't think them capable of having nations. They're primitives.

"listener forms" makes perfect sense, as their the only group we've seen who have forms. 

Then feel free to substitute the word "nation" for "tribe", that ultimately boils down to semantics. The fact is that Parshendi is the Alethi name for that group of listeners. This is indisputable, the Alethi made a treaty with the Parshendi, thus it is clearly defined as a specific group.

On your point about "listener forms", yes they're the only group we've seen to have forms, but, based off of Nale's comments in Edgedancer, they can't be the only such group.

Quote

"A fluke," Darkness said, his voice firm. "I contacted Ishar, and he assurred me it is so. What you saw are a few listeners who remain from the old days, ones free to use the old forms. They summoned a cluster of Voidspren. We've found remnants of them on Roshar before, hiding."

Therefore I'd argue that the term "listener forms" actually doesn't make sense if the name "listener" is only applied to that one group. He also refers to members of their species who are clearly not part of that group as listeners, so Nale clearly doesn't think that the word refers to that one tribe either.

Edited September 19, 2017 by BlackYeti