An idea about the madness of Heralds

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I don't know if this has been brought up, or in that case how much, so I'll throw it out here:

When discussing the Heralds, and their madness, a lot of people seem to think that the traits of the Heralds have reverted, and turned into the opposites of what they were. So, for example, one of Nalans traits are Just. By the existing theory, his madness should have made him non-just (I know that aint the word, but my english isn't the greatest). But Nale isn't non just. He is actually just to an extreme, and obeys the law by the book, in all cases, no matter what. This makes him unjust, in a fashion.

Nales other trait is confident. But he is not. He is, in fact, confident to a fault, since (Edgedancer spoilers):

Spoiler

He is convinced that he can prevent a Desolation by killing Surgebinders, despite knowing that the Everstorm has come.

So my idea is this: the madness hasn't made the Heralds traits become the opposites of what they were before. If they had, Nale wouldn't have cared about the law, and he would have lacked any kind of confidence. Instead, the madness has made their traits become extreme, and as with all cases of extremism, this might sometimes make them become opposed to the original traits. 

So, I have now presented my theory, and my idea about Nale. I'll throw out some ideas about some of the other Heralds, and how their extremism might manifest real quick:

-Shalash: She was creative and honest before. Might be that she is now creative to such a degree that she wants a completely new kind of art. She wants real creativity, not just the same old paintings and statues. So she destroys the things that are not creative or original enough. She was also honest before. Baxil mentions the danger of asking her prying questions. Might be that she would rather harm/kill someone than actually lie in response to a question. 

-Jezrien: He is protecting and leading. A bit like Kaladin, Jezrien feels like a failure every time he fails to protect someone, which is why he drinks. To wash away the pain. 

-Chana: We have not seen her as far as we know, but her brand of extremism could prove very interesting. She is brave and obedient. Her bravery would basically turn into total recklessness, with no regard for her own safety. Her obedience would end up turning her into a very submissive person, who follows her orders no matter what they are (like Szeth in a way).

-Kalak: The guy is supposed to be resolute, and a builder. I propose that he is resolute to an extreme, and that the resoluteness takes form in his guilt and fear. He seemed to be a pretty anxious guy in the Prelude, and felt guilty when breaking his Oath. He is now extremely resolute in the fact that it was wrong. 

 

So, what do you guys think? Am I on to something? Am I partly on to something? Am I dead wrong? Maybe even mad? 

Thoughts please, if you have any!

 

[Calderis he/him]

I don't think they are reversed, but I also don't think they are all taken to an extreme. I think that they are all perversions of their original traits, and extremism is a perfect example of that. 

I think you're right on with Nale. He was supposed to be "just" and was all for upholding the law. This would include just punishment which he has completely foregone. Rather than just punishment as the law requires, he now intentionally manipulates the law to find loopholes that allow him to legally punish minor infractions with death. 

He's no longer upholding the law, but twisting it for his own purposes. 

In Kalak's case his case I believe you're also correct that he believes that they were wrong but he's perverted that resolution with an inability to act on it. Resolution is powerless without the conviction to act. 

Ishar is most is likely right on with your idea as well. Guiding Nale down an incorrect path which he believes for reasons he believes to be righteous (pious) 

[lyht]

I like this theory, but knowing Brandon it is rarely as simple as black and white. I think @Calderis's variation of "Perversions" still supports your theory, but might be closer to what is happening.

It gets me thinking about the source for of the madness. Is it possible those attributes were gifts of investiture from Honor. And now that he is gone, without his guidance, that investiture is getting corrupted somehow? Or maybe investiture draws unclaimed investiture, and thus their attributes are being heightened, and are becoming extreme... which is back to @Toaster Retribution's theory.

[phoenix2563]

Excellent points above.  However, one should note that Taln's particular form of madness doesn't seem to fit the same mold as the others.  Taln should be Dependable/Resourceful.  However, we have only seen him repeat the same words/phrases almost mindlessly and occasionally responds to threats around him (aka catching Iyatil's poison dart aimed for Amaram).  How is that "madness" in any way related to his attributes?  

Or maybe this is part of what is "off" with Taln that Brandon keeps hinting at?

[b4dave he/him]

Would Taln be subject to the same madness as he was the only one to uphold the oath pact? I think he would be the only one exempt from it...

[phoenix2563]

5 minutes ago, b4dave said:

Would Taln be subject to the same madness as he was the only one to uphold the oath pact? I think he would be the only one exempt from it...

Yet, the one who calls himself Taln is clearly mad nonetheless...

[Calderis he/him]

@phoenix2563 Taln is actually remarkably reliable. He's still delivering his message despite being completely broken mentally. He can barely function beyond speaking his litany, and dealing with perceived threats. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I do believe that Taln would be exempt from the general madness of the Heralds. That said, Taln is mad as well. But I believe that has more to do with two thousand years worth of eternal suffering and torture than the breaking of oaths.

[Calderis he/him]

22 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I do believe that Taln would be exempt from the general madness of the Heralds. That said, Taln is mad as well. But I believe that has more to do with two thousand years worth of eternal suffering and torture than the breaking of oaths.

This is purely my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think Taln is subject to the same madness as the others. 

I think it started because of whatever is done to them on Braize, and that their madness contributed to the decision to walk away from the Oathpact. 

Part of my reasoning is Kalak in the WoR Prologue saying (Paraphrased)

"She's getting worse. We weren't supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse?" 

This implies they're both aware of their mental conditions, and thought that walking away would stop the degeneration. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Calderis

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is purely my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think Taln is subject to the same madness as the others. 

I think it started because of whatever is done to them on Braize, and that their madness contributed to the decision to walk away from the Oathpact. 

Part of my reasoning is Kalak in the WoR Prologue saying (Paraphrased)

"She's getting worse. We weren't supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse?" 

This implies their both aware of their mental conditions, and thought that walking away would stop the degeneration. 

I don't know if I agree that they thought walking away would stop them from getting worse, it is a possibility though, as I think torture would make anyone go insane eventually. Although that would explain why Taln is more crazy now than all the others...

And it would explain their decision to abandon the Oathpact and Taln in the first place...

I've talked myself into it. I'm behind this one 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

This is purely my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think Taln is subject to the same madness as the others. 

I think it started because of whatever is done to them on Braize, and that their madness contributed to the decision to walk away from the Oathpact. 

Part of my reasoning is Kalak in the WoR Prologue saying (Paraphrased)

"She's getting worse. We weren't supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse?" 

This implies their both aware of their mental conditions, and thought that walking away would stop the degeneration. 

This sounds good. This might also explain why Kalak feels kind of scared and weak in the Prelude. I have wondered about that before. He doesn't seem to be Resolute in a good way in that scene either.

What speaks against it is that Taln seems to be very confused because of the torture. We see him recalling it in his POV.