FiveLate Posted August 19, 2017 Posted August 19, 2017 (edited) We know that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds. What we don't know is exactly when the Oathpact was formed. Was it in response to Odium showing up? Was it in anticipation of this event? Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with Odium?Here answer 1. Spoiler INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013 Steelheart Signing Report - Shardlet (Verbatim) WETLANDER Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact? BRANDON SANDERSON Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no. WETLANDER Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, indeed. TAGS heralds, honor, odium, oathpact, Here answer 3 Spoiler INTERVIEW: Mar 19th, 2014 WoR Signing Report - darkanimereal1 and luke (Verbatim) QUESTION () What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture. BRANDON SANDERSON Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end. QUESTION Oh. So they've got a time limit. BRANDON SANDERSON They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again. QUESTION So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations? BRANDON SANDERSON They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think. TAGS desolations, heralds, Here answer 4. Spoiler Spoiler] INTERVIEW: Mar 19th, 2014 WoR Signing Report - darkanimereal1 and luke (Verbatim) QUESTION () How many parties were there to the original Oathpact? BRANDON SANDERSON The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds). TAGS heralds, honor, oathpact, Here answer 6. Spoiler INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015 Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL QUESTION Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else? BRANDON SANDERSON Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it. TAGS Odium, oathpact, These all show that Odium had no part of the Oathpact, and his being stuck on Roshar is an indirect result of it. Now WAST time. The creation of The Dor, and the fight with Ambition surely could be felt by the other Vessels in the Cosmere. It could have become obvious that Odium was hunting Vessels and destroying them. While not diametrically opposed like Ruin and Preservation, there could be some issues with Honors focus on Permanant Bonds, and Cultivations more change centric intents. As lovers, they should have become aware of these issues fairly early after moving in together (on Roshar). Endowment splits off a splinter of herself in every Returned. The contests that selected the Heralds were designed to select 10 individuals. While some were martial in focus, not all necessarily were. Chana is noted for her great speed for instance. While Honor obviously presided over them, perhaps Cultivation was also a judge. Knowing that Odium would be coming, Honor decided to self splinter. This allowed him to focus his intent into specific individuals with the traits he was looking for, rather than the randomness of being shattered. A bunch of mini-champions if you will. While it might make him a bit weaker overalls to spreading out his power overall, it might make him more resilient in the end because of the individuals would be known. He might have forged a separate pact with Cultivation prior to this where she would also do the same to a lesser extent with the chooses, thus giving her a seat at the judgement. This would have allowed Brandon to state that the Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds, and not mention her. Now if each was looking for specific traits in the contestants, it would make sense if these became ingrained in the Vorin religion. We have this nice table of essences and relations to Heralds from the Vorinn religion.Divine Attributes Spoiler Spoiler] Herald. Primary Divine Attribute. Secondary Divine Attribute. Jezrien. Protecting. Leading Nale. Just. Confident Chanarach. Brave. Obedient Vedel. Loving. Healing Paliah. Learned. Giving Shalash. Creative. Honest Battar. Wise. Careful Kalak. Resolute. Builder Talenel. Dependable. Resourceful Ishar. Pious. Guiding [\Spoiler] Primary Divine Attributes of Protecting, Just, Brave, Loving, Learned, Creative, Wise, Resolute, Dependable, and Pious. I feel that I can tie all of these attributes to something Honor would be looking for in someone to hold part of his power. Secondary Divine Attributes of Leading, Confident, Obiedient, Healing, Giving, Honest, Careful, Builder, Resourceful, and Guiding. I feel I can tie all these attributes to Something Cultivation would be looking for. The individuals selected were to lead the people by being living representative of these ideals. Honor splintered off a fairly large bit of Investature to each, and Cultivation a smaller. But this infusion of Investature would seek to enhance these traits in each individual over time becoming more and more a part of their intent. Since they had strength in particular focuses these would be exemplified. Now this large amount of Investiture would probably have affected their life spans as we have seen on Nalthas and on Sel. Having extremely long lived individuals exemplifying ideals should lead to a highly stable society. Thus the Tranquiline Halls mythology. An almost to perfect society, yet not stuck on the now but also the future do to Cultivations influence. The Heralds had to make the Oathpact with Honor, but what was the Oath. TO UPHOLD THE IDEALS FOR AS LONG AS THEY LIVED. The Reward extremely long life. They would not be Heralds of War. But Heralds of Life. Heralds of Ideals. So then Odium shows up. We have the First Desolation. THEY ALL DIE. But due to the splinters they hold, they all become Cognative Shadows. Odium is set back, but these little fairly helpless Heralds are now trapped. They have held a splinter so long they have been warped on the SR to be almost programmed to stay and uphold these ideals. So each time a Desolation starts they move back into the PR and fight for these ideals against the one who killed them. Because of this Odium is stuck. Every time he tries to destroy Honor, they come back like Army ants attacking his flanks. And by coming back they inspire others to the same ideals. Thus indirectly trapping him in Roshar. He sences that Honor is weak, so his hatred won't let him leave, but every time he attacks, the Heralds show up to buffer honors strength. Thus he starts a long game as I outline in my 10 Heralds 10 Fools thread. Edited August 19, 2017 by FiveLate Fixing links and formatting 4
Calderis he/him Posted August 19, 2017 Posted August 19, 2017 My main issue with this is that it does not address how the Heralds presence can spark a desolation. In this model, the Heralds react to the desolations, but it does not explain why they would have a "time limit" 1
phoenix2563 Posted August 19, 2017 Posted August 19, 2017 (edited) I'm with Calderis on this one. I think Odium came to Roshar originally to target the shards Honor and Cultivation. Why the Desolations and not just target the Shards directly? Because on Roshar, the investiture is powered primarily by the thoughts of men. To destroy as much civilization as possible would be in effect a weakening of the shards' power. and make them easier to destroy. The Heralds would be the champions chosen by Honor to specifically lead the fight against Odium's forces during the Desolations. The Oathpact may have been related to the bond made between the Heralds and Honor that fueled their power (since they are linked with a shard with an honorable intent, they would need to act in an honorable way to access the investiture fully). Their immortality would come simply from the fact of them having slivers of Honor. Since their torture on Braize somehow keeps the Desolations at bay for a time, this again is the honorable thing to do to subject themselves to this. I think later on, the effects of the Oathpact, in conjunction with the actions leading to Honor's splintering, may have accidentally been instrumental in capturing Rayse somehow, to where he can no longer leave the system. I'm partly grasping at straws here, but I have a hard time seeing a need for champions of Honor without the threat from Odium first. Edit: After re-reading your post, I actually agree with most everything, just I still think that the Heralds and the Oathpact were in direct response to Odium coming to Roshar. But you may have meant that anyway. To address Calderis' concern, if the Heralds are tied to Braize (ie the Tranquiline Halls), somehow as long as they stay there the bridge between Roshar and Braize is weakened somehow to where Rayse can't touch Roshar the planet directly. Edited August 19, 2017 by phoenix2563
FiveLate Posted August 19, 2017 Author Posted August 19, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calderis said: My main issue with this is that it does not address how the Heralds presence can spark a desolation. In this model, the Heralds react to the desolations, but it does not explain why they would have a "time limit" Yes this is one issue I have never been able to come up with a feasible explanation for, but everything else had come together, even if it was crazy guesses I coughed I would publish. 2 hours ago, phoenix2563 said: Edit: After re-reading your post, I actually agree with most everything, just I still think that the Heralds and the Oathpact were in direct response to Odium coming to Roshar. But you may have meant that anyway. I propose they were a preparation, not a response. A prepositioning of power, much like general's preposition troops for the best effect before a battle, or politics prepositions allies before a war. @Calderis and @phoenix2563 The closest idea I can come up with for causing another desolation when not leaving actually goes against part of the other theory, basically that since they are not "needed to fight" staying somehow works against that initial oath making honor appear weaker again to Odium... Edit: many thanks for the feedback. Edited August 19, 2017 by FiveLate
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted August 19, 2017 Posted August 19, 2017 I like a lot of @FiveLates ideas, specifically identifying the primary Heraldic traits as ones from Honor and the secondary as ones from Cultivation. I agree with @Calderis about the time limit though, and I also think that it is something more than Odiums hatred that binds him to Roshar, even though it would be cool for a Shard to be tied up by their own intent.
phoenix2563 Posted August 19, 2017 Posted August 19, 2017 Regarding the Heraldic traits, I think @FiveLate is on the right track, but I have a theory that is a bit more involved. Not sure if this will mess with the argument or not. I think that just as some of the radiant spren are primarily of Honor (ie Syl) or primarily of Cultivation (ie Wyndle), I propose that some orders draw their primary attributr from one shard with the secondary attribute related to the other shard. I think that Cultivation's attributes are related to atributes that are "cultivated" over time, almost like skills, which would include Wise, Learned, Resourceful, Builder, and Honor's attributes are related to actions/choices made by a person, including Honest, Careful, Protecting, Pious, Giving. Here is my full listing below based on this (Primary attribute indicated by *) Honor: Cultivation: Protecting* Leading Just* Confident Loving* Healing Resolute* Builder Dependable* Resourceful Honest Creative* Obedient Brave* Giving Learned* Careful Wise* Guiding Pious* Thoughts? @FiveLate don't mean to hijack your thread with this theory but thought it fit well into your line of thought. 3
Eilemelie Posted August 19, 2017 Posted August 19, 2017 (edited) There are a lot of good ideas in there, but I do not yet fell that the pieces to bind them together are there. Part of the purposed premise seems rather lacking though, specifically about the ideals and how they go together with the Shards. I simply do not see how the primary/secondary groupings would overlap to a fuller extent with the intents of Honor/Cultivation as they stand. There are ideals in both that would fit much better in with the other, specifically Shallash's ideals seem to be swapped as I can't fathom why Honor would choose for creativity, nor cultivation for honesty but the opposite would fit perfectly. As such, I think you are reading in too much into the groupings into a primary and a secondary ideal. I don't really see why you feel the need to encompass this into the same theory though as this seems loosely connected to the rest at most. Edit: Ninjad by phoenix2536 Edited August 19, 2017 by Eilemelie 1
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