Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 Why didnt Tanavast go to the beyond? Part of Cultivations and his plan? Sacrifice Honor to find out how Odium shatters a shard? If Cultivation is the best at seeing or predicting the future, did she forsee Harmony coming about? Harmony a shard that may be able to reassemble shattered shards given his massive awareness and power? What is Tanavast now? A cognitive shadow like Kelsier. Quote "What do you think, Saze?” Kelsier asked, staring out over the world. “Is there a way for me to get out of this, and live again in the Physical Realm?” Sazed hesitated. “No. I do not think so.” He patted Kelsier on the shoulder, then vanished. Huh, Kelsier thought. He holds the powers of creation in twain, a god among gods. And he’s still a terrible liar. Did Preservation sacrifice himself before Honor died? Giving Cultivation a better prediction?
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Thanatos said: What is Tanavast now? A cognitive shadow like Kelsier. That's what he was. He then merged with the Stormfather. We don't really know what that did to him/them.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Why didn't Tanavast go to the beyond? As stated, he merged with the Stormfather for unknown reasons. Beyond that, he held a Shard for millennia. I think he's been sufficiently invested in life so as to resist the call of the Beyond indefinitely if he so chose. 13 minutes ago, Thanatos said: If Cultivation is the best at seeing or predicting the future, did she forsee Harmony coming about? We don't actually know that she is the "best" at Shardic Future-Sight, but that's not the point. She certainly could have seen it, but I doubt that she did. Her gaze should have been focused on the future of the conflict with Odium, not at the other worlds. 15 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Did Preservation sacrifice himself before Honor died? Giving Cultivation a better prediction? If you are talking about when Vin took out Ruin, then no. Not even remotely before Honor died. If you are talking about when Leras betrayed Ruin and trapped him in the Well.. that may have been before Honor's death, but I do not equate the two events in any way.
Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Calderis, I think he merged with the Stormfather so he could make a difference in the PR. Otherwise he would not be able to manipulate the PR or interact with people. The One Who Connects, Ruin held the shard for millennia as well. But went to the beyond straight away. Tanavast stayed for some reason. Part of the plan? Her potential forseeing of Harmony may be part of the plan with Odium. If and i say if only a double or more shard holder can reassemble a shard, Honors sacrifice makes sense. As Tanavast would chill for a bit and wait for Honors reassemble then he can retake Honor. This is all within the context of the OP theory. Edited July 18, 2017 by Thanatos
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Thanatos said: But went to the beyond straight away. As did the Lord Ruler. You forget that choosing to leave often requires just as much or more willpower than choosing to stay. 3 minutes ago, Thanatos said: As Tanavast would chill for a bit and wait for Honor reassemble then he can retake Honor. For the same reasons that Kelsier could not fully hold Preservation, I don't think Tanavast's Shadow could reclaim Honor. Not to mention that it would require the current holder who reassembled Honor to step down or be killed.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 25 minutes ago, Thanatos said: I think he merged with the Stormfather so he could make a difference in the PR. Otherwise he would not be able to manipulate the PR or interact with people. We know at least in part why he did it, and that was to force the Stormfather to pass on his visions. Reread all of the Stormfather parts though. Tanavast is gone. The Stormfather has been changed by the merge, but it's definitely more stormfather than Honor. He's not taking up a Shard.
Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 The One Who Connects, The way i see it is the more invested you are the less of a pull you have to the beyond. People who are massively invested have little to no pull. Its a conscious want to go to the beyond for these people. I didnt say Tanavast's shadow would reclaim Honor, im my OP i was alluding to Harmony creating a new body for Tanavast and putting him back together. Cultivation may be able to do this. Honor just needs to be assembled first.
Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 Calderis, We dont know the extent of the merge and if it can be undone. Tanavast is indeed dead... but so is Kelsier pre Arc 2 of Mistborn.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Calderis, We dont know the extent of the merge and if it can be undone. Tanavast is indeed dead... but so is Kelsier pre Arc 2 of Mistborn. I doubt it can be undone. Take two liquids and pour them together. Take them apart again. I think it's much the same. The Stormfather was the much bigger portion of liquid, as his is the personality that remains. 1
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Its a conscious want to go to the beyond for these people. Which was my entire point. Ati's departure was the result of a conscious choice, whereas a Vessel's lack of passing on does not automatically imply a conscious choice. Tanavast's merging with the Stormfather does, but his reasons for that are still unknown. 8 minutes ago, Thanatos said: was alluding to Harmony creating a new body for Tanavast. Ah... I don't see it. Literally and figuratively. Literally: I didn't really see you implying that. All you implied is that Harmony could rebuild Honor. Figuratively: I don't see Harmony getting involved with Stormlight. At all
Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 Calderis, Its not really like liquids. Its two souls, one human one spren. I think he bonded in a similar way Radiants bond with spren. We still dont know all the information so we can only speculate. The One Who Connects, I was responding to your comment of 'You forget that choosing to leave often requires just as much or more willpower than choosing to stay.' I was disagreeing with that. Its easy to stay in the CR if you are invested enough. Yes i did imply Harmony could reassemble Honor but i also said and quoted how Tanavast could retake Honor in full: Quote: "What is Tanavast now? A cognitive shadow like Kelsier." Quote "What do you think, Saze?” Kelsier asked, staring out over the world. “Is there a way for me to get out of this, and live again in the Physical Realm?” Sazed hesitated. “No. I do not think so.” He patted Kelsier on the shoulder, then vanished. Huh, Kelsier thought. He holds the powers of creation in twain, a god among gods. And he’s still a terrible liar.
Jonathon Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 13 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Calderis, Its not really like liquids. Its two souls, one human one spren. I think he bonded in a similar way Radiants bond with spren. We still dont know all the information so we can only speculate. I think this is the part where you're getting confused, it was mentioned that tanavasts cognistive shadow specifically merged with the stormfather rather than bonding with it. If it was stated that they bonded then I might be on board with your theory, however I don't believe that merging and bonding would have the same effect and therefore you wouldn't be able to separate them after a merge.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, Thanatos said: Its not really like liquids. Its two souls, one human one spren. I think he bonded in a similar way Radiants bond with spren. We still dont know all the information so we can only speculate. True we can only speculate, but it's nothing like a spren bond. It is a merge of two beings. The Nahel bond functions specifically because of how heavily physical people are, compared to the bond with Parshendi, who are closer to the Cognitive. A Cognitive Shadow is completely Cognitive and can't give the Spren what they need for the bond. As far as the Stormfather/Tanavast thing, here's something to consider. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1163#7 Quote QUESTION Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time... BRANDON SANDERSON Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are. Note the word "absorbed"
Fatling he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Take two liquids and pour them together. Take them apart again. Actually you can have two separate liquid phases in equilibrium, like you pour one chemical into another and it separates into two phases, one that's like 10% the one chemical and the other that's like 80% that same chemical. Kinda cool. Sorry, that's like a chem-e thing, it caught my eye while I was reading through this. Maybe that's what the Stormfather-Tanavast is like, like if they separate one will be 10% Tavanast and 90% Stormfather and the other one will be 95% Tavanast and 5% Stormfather (I don't know if Tavanast or Stormfather has a bigger will). But yeah I agree with most everyone else that this merging isn't the same as someone bonding a spren
Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Jonathon. point taken. So ill change it round. Does a vessel 'merge' with a shard when its taken up? Calderis, Sound to me in that WoB that the Stormfather is the cognitive shadow of Tanavast. Who is a spren but because of the absorption is now different. The Stormfather is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow. Edited July 18, 2017 by Thanatos
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Thanatos said: Sound to me in that WoB that the Stormfather is the cognitive shadow of Tanavast. Who is a spren but because of the absorption is now different. The Stormfather is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow. Except the Stormfather's personality shows that that is very much not the case. So the Stormfather as we see him in book, in combination with that WoB, seems to indicate that he's gained all of the spiritual connections of Tanavast's shadow, and so in essence is his shadow, but remains primarily the Bondsmith spren that existed since before Honor and Cultivation's arrival on Roshar. He has all the benefits of being Tanavast's Shadow, without being Tanavast.
Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Calderis. We dont know the Stormfathers personality prior to merging with Tanavast. We have only seen the new Stormfather. The visions you cant compare as Tanavast was depressed about his potential loss and death. I guess Brandons 'is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow' is ambiguous enough to be your view or mine. Or another. Hope Oathbreaker has alot of answers to our theories. Edited July 18, 2017 by Thanatos
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 13 hours ago, Thanatos said: I was responding to your comment of 'You forget that choosing to leave often requires just as much or more willpower than choosing to stay.' I was disagreeing with that. Its easy to stay in the CR if you are invested enough. I'm aware of what statement you were responding to. That statement of mine was in response to you saying "But [Ruin] went to the beyond straight away. Tanavast stayed for some reason." You implied that Tanavast chose to stay, and I was trying to point out that he didn't have to choose. Ati leaving was a choice. Tanavast staying did not have to be a choice. Merging with the Stormfather was a choice, but it doesn't have to relate to choosing not to move on. For all we know, he did what he did to save the Stormfather(to keep the Highstorm ecosystem running). It's certainly the more Honor oriented choice than the self preservation instinct.
Thanatos Posted July 18, 2017 Author Posted July 18, 2017 The One Who Connects The fact he chose to merge with the Stormfather is tantamount to him chosing not to go to the beyond. He didnt do it to keep the highstorm going, ecosystem maintenance or not. As the highstorms where there prior to Honors arrival.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, Thanatos said: The One Who Connects The fact he chose to merge with the Stormfather is tantamount to him chosing not to go to the beyond. He didnt do it to keep the highstorm going, ecosystem maintenance or not. As the highstorms where there prior to Honors arrival. That's a big assumption. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1177#12 Quote QUESTION Question about the stormlight itself : a highstorm, full of stormlight, fills the spheres. Then, the KR use the stormlight or the stormlight evaporates with time. Question : where does the stormlight in highstorms come from ? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the stormlight ? BRANDON SANDERSON the stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm. If the Stormfather had died. Stormlight would have died with him.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Thanatos said: The One Who Connects The fact he chose to merge with the Stormfather is tantamount to him choosing not to go to the beyond. He didn't do it to keep the Highstorm going, ecosystem maintenance or not. As the Highstorms where there prior to Honors arrival. You misunderstand what I was referring to. I've had this ecosystem/Stormfather argument before with Calderis. I do not intend to go through it again. Quote QUESTION About the Stormlight itself : A Highstorm fills the spheres. Then, the KR use the Stormlight or the Stormlight evaporates with time. Question : where does the Stormlight in Highstorms come from ? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight ? BRANDON SANDERSON the Stormlight in the Highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the Highstorm. The Stormfather existed before Honor arrived too. The implication of this WoB implies that his death would have broken the system.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said: You misunderstand what I was referring to. I've had this ecosystem/Stormfather argument before with Calderis. I do not intend to go through it again. The Stormfather existed before Honor arrived too. The implication of this WoB implies that his death would have broken the system. Yeah. While I still am not sure on the timing, I don't discount it as a possibility, because the Stormfather is massively important. This is also the reason I think that the sheer magnitude of the Stormfather is the reason that Tanavast's Shadow would have been absorbed into the Spren, and not the other way around.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 Just now, Calderis said: This is also the reason I think that the sheer magnitude of the Stormfather is the reason that Tanavast's Shadow would have been absorbed into the Spren, and not the other way around. Valid point. Should've brought that up last time, would've ended our argument right quick I still hold that he might have died from his wounds, it'd just take longer. Gives Tanavast a reason to do what he did.
Calderis he/him Posted July 18, 2017 Posted July 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Valid point. Should've brought that up last time, would've ended our argument right quick I still hold that he might have died from his wounds, it'd just take longer. Gives Tanavast a reason to do what he did. If I'd thought of it then I would have. Like I said though, I can't totally discount your idea, because Iif the Stormfather goes... So does everything else. Tanavast had to have some reason for it. Are the visions alone worth essentially sacrificing himself?
Thanatos Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) The One Who Connects Stormlight has nothing to do with the ecosystem from my understanding. Didnt know the Stormfather was pre Honor. Always thought it was his spren, nightwatcher Cultivation and the other one Uncle Andy. Is the Stormfather confirmed as pre Honor? Calderis. Why would the Stormfather go is Tanavast goes? Edited July 19, 2017 by Thanatos
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