What did Dalinar ask?

[Calderis he/him]

So with Oathbringer coming up, it's likely we'll finally get the answer to what Dalinar asked, and what his boon/curse were. 

So I was thinking it would be interesting to see what we all think he asked. 

Personally, I think that he was responsible for his wife's death, whether directly or indirectly, and asked for the guilt to stop. 

So I think his boon was forgetting, mainly because in way of Kings were he says he "foolishly" washed her away. So I think he only wanted to forget the things leading up to her death and lost everything, but as for his curse... No clue. 

What do you think? 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Calderis

[Ammanas]

I'll put forth a idea that's a little crazy. Dalinar feels guilt for his wife's death and asks the Nightwatcher for a chance to redo that decision. Dalinar goes back in time and makes a different decision, but still the result is his wife dying. And we all know the price. 

[Lightning he/him]

Hmmm.... I always had the impression that forgetting his wife was the curse.  It would be quite a twist for it to be the boon.

I can't picture Dalinar as so weak as to deal with guilt by asking for a memory wipe though.

[Calderis he/him]

15 minutes ago, Lightning said:

Hmmm.... I always had the impression that forgetting his wife was the curse.  It would be quite a twist for it to be the boon.

I can't picture Dalinar as so weak as to deal with guilt by asking for a memory wipe though.

I actually find Dalinar's explanation of himself as a weak man bound by the codes as very apt. 

He's very prone to guilt, and is the type to just... Do what base emotions and instinct push him towards. The codes have been his crutch, and he is greatly improved by them. I don't think the Dalinar we know is the same man as existed then. 

[Ammanas]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I actually find Dalinar's explanation of himself as a weak man bound by the codes as very apt. 

He's very prone to guilt, and is the type to just... Do what base emotions and instinct push him towards. The codes have been his crutch, and he is greatly improved by them. I don't think the Dalinar we know is the same man as existed then. 

I have always pictured a Dalinar that wasn't weak, but a Dalinar that had no restraints. Whatever he wanted he did/took and did not care about consequences  (the one exception being deferring to his brother). It will be exciting to find out in November!

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Ammanas said:

I have always pictured a Dalinar that wasn't weak, but a Dalinar that had no restraints. Whatever he wanted he did/took and did not care about consequences  (the one exception being deferring to his brother). It will be exciting to find out in November!

I suppose it depends on how your defining weakness. I think the definition I'm thinking is the same Dalinar is when he describes himself as weak. 

He was definitely physically strong enough to take what he wants, but lack of self restraint is a weakness in and of itself. He clings so strongly to the codes because his own restraints were exceptionally weak. 

[+Extesian he/him]

Firstly, the boons and curses are cognitive so that confines our choices 

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CHEESE NINJA

Nightwatcher's curses all appear to be neurological in effect, are the boons limited in any particular manner?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

Quote

QUESTION

I kind of envision the Old Magic working a little bit like Hemalurgy, where some-- takes a part of the Physical DNA of the person and transmutes it onto the Cognitive DNA because everything seems to be a Cognitive shift for the person, am I thinking along the right lines?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You are thinking along very-- Yes you are thinking along the right lines. I won’t tell you exactly but you are thinking along the right lines.

So I like the idea @Ammanas but unless we're being misled it can't be that. 

We also kinda know he visited after Gavilar's death

Quote

QUESTION ()

Did Taravangian go to see the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar's assassination?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, oh man. I'm going to have to look at my timeline. I believe it's before, but I can't guarantee I'm right, because these things are all happening around the same time.

QUESTION

Because he says that Gavilar confided in him the night of.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ooooh, you're right. Nope, it's after. It is after. You can send that question to Peter so we can confirm it. There might be something I'm forgetting about Taravangian.

[Peter said by PM: "As far as I can tell from what the book says, he went to the Nightwatcher after the assassination

While I like the story element of forgetting Evie being the boon I feel like Dalinar had such a wake up call from being a drunk buffoon as his brother died that he wouldn't be selfish enough to ask that as the boon. I think the boon was something around being given the ability to protect the ones he loves and the curse is forgetting the one he loved the most. Either that or the grief of his wife was stopping him from being the man he needed to be to protect people, and PART of the boon, that he didn't ask for, was forgetting. 

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, Extesian said:

We also kinda know he visited after Gavilar's death

That WoB is about Taravangian. 

I assumed that he went to the Nightwatcher before as it's implied he was gone during the Roshone incident, which was before Gavilar's death.

I agree that after Gavilar's death that reasoning wouldn't hold. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

That WoB is about Taravangian. 

I assumed that he went to the Nightwatcher before as it's implied he was gone during the Roshone incident, which was before Gavilar's death. 

 You're obviously right good effort reading your own WoB, me. I think I'd conflated them in my own head and didn't think twice. Yeah if Dalinar went pre-assassination that makes the shshsh boon more likely. (Now I'm going over me own head canon trying to work out how long I thought that and how much head canon has been distorted because of it )

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Extesian said:

(Now I'm going over me own head canon trying to work out how long I thought that and how much head canon has been distorted because of it )

I've been there, and it's never fun. 

[Kered he/him]

26 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Firstly, the boons and curses are cognitive so that confines our choices 

So I like the idea @Ammanas but unless we're being misled it can't be that. 

We also kinda know he visited after Gavilar's death

While I like the story element of forgetting Evie being the boon I feel like Dalinar had such a wake up call from being a drunk buffoon as his brother died that he wouldn't be selfish enough to ask that as the boon. I think the boon was something around being given the ability to protect the ones he loves and the curse is forgetting the one he loved the most. Either that or the grief of his wife was stopping him from being the man he needed to be to protect people, and PART of the boon, that he didn't ask for, was forgetting. 

I agree with this. Dalinar describes himself as a man of extremes, most of the time theres no middle ground with him. The sacrifice of loosing the one he loved most would make for logical character development. 

[Andy92]

I've sometimes wondered if he asked for Navani to fall in love with him and was cursed with forgetting his former wife. That's part of why he's so hesitant to accept her advances after Gavilar was killed. He's feeling the guilt about what he asked for, especially after his brother was killed. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Andy92

[Krandacth]

I recently accidentally convinced myself that Dalinar must have asked for something that could be interpreted as spiritual healing (either that, or the Nightwatcher did that as a curse...). So I would question @Extesian's assertion that all boons/curses are cognitive (the WoBs don't say anything about the cognitive in their answers, just that playing with different realmatic -dna is thinking along the right lines).

Anyway, I came to this conclusion while wondering what it would look like if someone tried to magically heal someone's spiritweb after the loss of a loved one (the case in point was Kaladin and Tien). As far as I could see there were two options:

* Progressive, where broken Connections find new endpoints. This is how I think mundane spiritual healing happens, but more slowly/naturally. Magically, this would take the form of instantly developing new strong feelings and affinities for tangentially related things.

* Regressive, where broken Connections are also detached at source. This would take the form of all feeling for (and memory of feeling/opinion for) that person being wiped, as the Connections that embody those feelings are removed from one's soul.

I think it is important to note that Dalinar hasn't had all memory of her wiped, as he still has the memories she is involved in, but anything at all that would let him form and opinion of her is gone. This matches exactly the second option for magical spiritual healing.

I wonder if the Nightwatcher did this in part to prepare his spiritweb to be broken in just the right way by Gavilar's death... (Tying into my headcanon that the shape of the break in someone's soul is both determined by what caused it and determines the kind of Spren they are compatible with).

Edited July 10, 2017 by Krandacth

[+Extesian he/him]

@Krandacth looking at those WoBs again I see they don't necessarily mean the Old Magic affects the Cognitive Realm, it could actually be changing the physical realm to give someone a physical problem/ benefit that affects their cognitive abilities or perception. Thanks for pointing it out. 

And comparing the examples we know already strains that anyway. Lift metabolising food into investiture for example. Though that still could be a Cognitive Realm thing depending on the mechanics. And there was that dude who saw things upside down, which seems cognitive, but I think his boon was getting cloth? Of course others like Taravangian, and Dalinar's memory, seem cognitive. 

But I feel I should backpedal on my assertion that the Old Magic acts on the Cognitive Realm. Hopefully someone else will know something I don't..

[Ciridae]

I have a feeling that whatever he asked for seemed important at the time but has less meaning to Dalinar in retrospect. The Nightwatcher gives you what she thinks you deserve, and before Gavilar's death Dalinar was a violent, egoistic and jealous man. We know that Dalinar knows exactly what his boon and curse are, and we've had viewpoints, so we know there's nothing obviously funky going on with his mind or perception. I'm thinking that he might have asked for help unifying the highprinces. Maybe he asked to win a certain battle, or asked for a chance to win a shardblade. Tiny sort of Thrill spoiler

Spoiler

Considering how he won Oathbringer that would be messed up.

Maybe Gavilar received the boon instead, as he was the main coordinator of the unification. Maybe the boon was what caused Gavilar to know all the things that he had no reason to know. Either way, I agree that forgetting his wife is the curse and I think that the boon wont be any spectacular magical ability like Lift's. I think it will be something comparatively mundane.

[Azul he/him]

My idea on this was always a bit boring.  I thought he felt overwhelming grief over losing someone he loved,  No idea if it was just from an unexpected death or as some have suggested over guilt and asked the Nightwatcher to relieve him of that grief.   So his boon would be losing the memories of his wife and his curse would be never being able to hear her name again.  Like i said, very boring.

[Rupert]

I'm with Azul, I think it's as simple as he was in so much grief that he wanted to forget his wife (so he could feel more pain, or to be able to function from a lack of guilt etc) and that was the boon he asked for.   Nightwatcher has the foresight to realize that he wont always feel that way, that grief goes through a cycle and whilst the memories bring pain/guilt right now they would also be pleasurable and left to his own devices he would be able to remember his wife fondly without pain. So both the boon and the curse were to forget his wife. If Night watcher gives in proportion to what she takes this would work out fairly similar.

 

 

[retrorocket1]

Maybe he asked for a boon that was specific to a certain order of knights and to do so his spirit web had to be broken in a certain way that caused him to forget his wife...might be stretching here, the idea came to me less than a minute ago.

[Guest]

My personal thoughts are he either asked to be cured of his sickening jealousy towards his brother and/or he asked to be absolved of his wife's death. I do not think he asked to be cured of his sadness over her death as I don't believe he was actually sad. Dalinar has had only one love and it is Navani. His flashbacks are very consistent with these thoughts.

I also do think Dalinar is a weak-willed man: he takes what he wants, when he wants, he has no restrain, no order, no restriction. He doesn't care if taking what he wants hurt others, it is all about him, he never had the strength to reign himself, to accept the word did not revolve around him and his needs. The codes are given him this structure he lacked for his entire life, but he can only have it if he remains very rigid. We will probably never find out, but I think it likely Dalinar was a spoiled kid who's every whims were absolved.

[Azul he/him]

I have to disagree @maxal.  We get several indicators that he did come to love his wife.

 

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“She changed everything,” Navani said. “You truly seemed to love her.”

Quote

“It’s all right,” he said. “Were you surprised that I married her?”
“Who could be surprised? As I said, she was perfect for you.”

As Dalinar has said, he is a man of extremes,  I while i agree he always loved Navani I believe he would have put his whole heart into loving his wife and losing her would have devastated him.

[Sparkrunner he/him]

I very unfounded, unproven idea of mine is that his boon had something to do with being the Blackthorn and essentially gaining a kingdom, or getting into the position where he could take it. I think this matches with what we know of the old Dalinar.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Azul said:

I have to disagree @maxal.  We get several indicators that he did come to love his wife.

 

As Dalinar has said, he is a man of extremes,  I while i agree he always loved Navani I believe he would have put his whole heart into loving his wife and losing her would have devastated him.

Once we know more about their stories then these quotes take an all new perspective. I don't think Dalinar loved his wife, he did not marry her out of love and if he perhaps came to appreciate her, I don't think he ever loved her.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

My current theory is that Dalinar asked the Nightwatcher to remove his feelings for the one he loved most to stop pining for Navani... only to have her remove the memories and feelings for Evie, who he had come to love more without realising.

Unlikely, I know, but it came to me yesterday and I thought I'd post it ^^

[Pattern he/him]

Interesting is that in the Oathbringer flashbacks "ShhhShhhh" becomes "Evie", so either the boon/curse runs out or the flashbacks are not memories from the present-day-Dalinar but written in the point of view of the past-Dalinar.

Unfortunately i am shamefully uncreative finding a boon/curse pair that hasn't been mentioned yet and doesn't violate the timeline. I'll go for a run and think a bit more on the topic...

[Azul he/him]

I am fairly sure that the flashbacks, at least the ones contained in their own chapters, are us seeing into the past and not someones memory of them.  At least I hope this is the case.  Peoples memory of the past would not be nearly as reliable.