Calderis he/him Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, PallonianFire said: Brandon himself says it does, so... Right there, Brandon says that Kaladin's cracks are due to his depression. No where in that does he say those issues cause the cracks directly. I fully agree that the things people go through because of those parts of their personality could make them more prone to achieving those cracks. The things Brandon says here though, say that those people are whole including those issues, so I think the mental disorders don't cause the cracks directly, just make people more prone to emotional states and situations that would result in them. It's a fairly minor difference, but significant to the individual I think.
PallonianFire he/him Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 Given the context (I asked if Shards could heal the cracks without mentioning mental disability and Brandon immediately started talking about mental disability), I'd say that's a pretty strong indicator that that's what the cracks are in Kaladin's case.
Guest Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 8 hours ago, PallonianFire said: Brandon himself says it does, so... Right there, Brandon says that Kaladin's cracks are due to his depression. Not exactly. What he says is mental illness is part of how a given individual perceives himself which is why it may never be healed. He doesn't say Kaladin is a Radiant because he has depression nor does he say Renarin became one because he is autistic, but illness might increase the likelihood of someone enduring hardships strong enough for a bond to install itself. Would have Kaladin broken down enough following Tien's death had he not been prone to depression? The story does not say, but the story does say Kaladin almost destroyed his bond and one of the culprit was his depression. So I'd argue it goes both ways: maybe an illness helps, but it might also diminishes the chances of a given individual of succeeding in reforging himself. There is also the fact Radianthood isn't hereditary, it isn't genetic, while mental illnesses are. If mental illnesses were a requirement and/or a means by which individuals became Radiants, then we wouldn't be able to say it isn't genetic, because it would be. This being said, as far as we can tell, being broken is only one requirement to forge a Nahel bond, it isn't a given: not all broken individuals will become Radiants, not all bearers of mental illnesses will be chosen by sprens. The spirit web only is one component which is required, the other one, perhaps much more important, is for an individual to befit a given's orders characteristics. Had Jasnah not been able to put rational thinking above emotions, even with a broken spirit web, she would not have been chosen. Hence, Renarin wasn't chosen because he is autistic, but the fact he is autistic likely made it so his very easy life was challenging enough to break him (whereas it wouldn't have broken another individual). He was chosen because he ought to have done something which attracted a Truthwatcher spren. He just didn't sit there doing nothing only to get awarded super powers: he had to show he was worthy, he had to do something for Glys to chose him. We didn't get to see it but it does not mean it isn't there. It is the same for Kaladin, he wasn't chosen because he had depression, he was chosen because he tried to protect others despite having watched his brother died.
Calderis he/him Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 @maxal well said. In addition to the internal ramifications there's also the external caused by their condition. Renarin is regarded as creepy because of the way he interacts with people. Kaladin's brooding puts a lot of people off. Their conditions lend themselves towards some I'll treatment. Many people will react to that treatment in ways that are not conducive to being a Knight. And as you state even for ones who do attract a spren, their conditions may make maintaining their oaths even more difficult.
PallonianFire he/him Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 Hard disagree. I asked that question, and he understood the context. He absolutely meant that healing the cracks in Kaladin's Spirit Web that allow for the Nahel bond would be healing his depression—and I never mentioned depression. My entire interaction with him was based around Shards healing the cracks that allow Investiture in, and he immediately brought up Kaladin's depression and couched it in the context of his wife's mental illness.
+Extesian he/him Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 From a purely textual basis I don’t think that WoB is authoritative on the question of whether Kaladin’s depression entirely constitutes the cracks in his spiritweb. But I’m also not going to argue with the person who actually asked the question J I will make a couple of points though. Firstly, I think mental illness is not required, but can cause, cracks. However I think it’s only an exacerbating factor. Look at how different main characters have dealt with hardship. Shallan – repressed it, pretended it never happened. Kaladin – depression, self-hatred, inertia. Dalinar – determination to become better, to live life the opposite to how he used to. Each of them had traumatic episodes that could crack a person. But given how differently they all dealt with it, I don’t believe mental illness causes these things. Depression, for example, is sometimes just there, but often it’s a proclivity that only comes out subsequent to a traumatic event. I think Kaladin would have the requisite cracks even if he never developed depression, because of the things that actually happened to him. But I definitely think depression exacerbates it – depression may come from terrible events but then makes it harder to deal with future terrible events, alters your thinking and, in my mind, basically shoves a wedge into the cracks already there and widens them. So I’ll disagree with all of you, or perhaps agree with all of you I think cracks are independent of mental illness, but I definitely think a mental illness will often widen them further, and can almost definitely be the sole cause of cracks in the case of mental illness that doesn’t require trauma to manifest. And yes, I think Kaladin’s mental illness widens his cracks, but I think even if he didn’t have depression, his life would’ve caused those cracks anyway.
Krandacth Posted June 9, 2017 Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, PallonianFire said: Hard disagree. I asked that question, and he understood the context. He absolutely meant that healing the cracks in Kaladin's Spirit Web that allow for the Nahel bond would be healing his depression—and I never mentioned depression. My entire interaction with him was based around Shards healing the cracks that allow Investiture in, and he immediately brought up Kaladin's depression and couched it in the context of his wife's mental illness. But you did mention healing. Prerequisites: The Spiritual Realm and the entities therein (Connection, Identity, etc.) have some relation to the Physical and Cognitive Realms; the names of those entities are appropriate given our understanding of the words; and a 'break' in a web of connections means the detachment of some of those connections from either/both ends. Response: From what I understand, a Spirit Web constitutes ones core Identity and all the Connections from it to others (both individuals and concepts/ideals), thereby representing, collectively, the result of both nature and nurture on a person. Cracks in the spirit web may be in either of these two spiritual areas, but in either case involves broken Connections. For example, Kaladin was massively Connected to Tien, and his brother's death essentially severed all of those Connections, leaving a hole. That hole, however, constitutes all of Kaladin's feelings for both Tien and his death, by virtue of all the severed Connections still attached 'at one end' to Kaladin. Depression may well constitute breaks in his Identity*, but has definitely also prevented many of those Connections to Tien finding other entities to connect to (this is what I would consider mundane healing of the Spirit Web). I understand how magical healing of one's Identity may manifest, (re)forging the Connections between the 2+ existing entities that have been dissociated. This would, I guess, be what Brandon talked about with you, as it most cleanly maps to a notion of healing. However, I fail to see how magical healing of the remainder of the Spirit Web could manifest in anything other than either delusion or the loss of free will: either Kaladin would lose all memory of and feeling for Tien** as the broken Connections are detached from him; or he would be forcibly and arbitrarily Connected to the spiritually-nearest things as those broken Connections are reforged, but without the original endpoints available. Neither of those options for 'healing' the spirit web feel like they could be classed as 'healing' in the way that the term is normally applied in the Cosmere (reverting to a 'well' version of how one sees oneself). Therefore it seems likely to me that Brandon talked about the kind of breaks (or irregularities?) that could be healed in that conventional sense. * I would probably assert that a hereditary mental illness such as Kaladin's depression appears to be is an unusual configuration of his Identity with missing Connections rather than broken ones, if I were designing the system, but I can see both sides. ** OMG guys, new Theory on the mechanics of Dalinar and the Nightwatcher. Edited June 9, 2017 by Krandacth 1
Recommended Posts