Concerning Nin's Fabrial

[Caevita he/him]

So, I was rereading Words of Radiance the other day (I gotta find a better intro seriously) and I was thinking about the fabrial which Darkness/Nin/Nalan uses to revive Szeth.  At the time Words of Radiance came out, I just kinda accepted it as a thing that apparently happened in the cosmere but I didn't know how.  There's a lot of that in the Cosmere.

Then Secret History came out, giving us a behind-the-scenes look at death in the cosmere, people's cognitive shadows briefly hesitating in the cognitive realm before moving on to the true afterlife in the series (the Tranquiline Halls or whatever you want to call it).  People with a significant amount of Investiture can stay a bit longer, but will eventually get pulled in.  Unless you're a Shard, of course.  Szeth isn't, which is why I figure Nin's fabrial works via pulling someone's cognitive shadow back in their body before they can move on.  It explains Nin's comment about "seconds later, and it would have been too late."  Szeth was about to move on, but Nin decided he wasn't done yet.

Always assuming my assumptions are correct, this raises two lines of thought in my mind.

Firstly, I assume something similar happens for Kelsier.  I am very curious just how similar.  We know he's spiked now, and we know Hemalurgic spikes can transfer power from other magic systems.  I mean, it's always possible that two distinct magic systems happen to share an ability, but I'll believe that when I see it.  And yes, fabrials are as much technology as they are magic in the traditional sense, but they seem to imitate other magics as often as not (see Oathgates and the bonding gem in a Deadblade).  Time will tell on that one.

Second, just how far can this ability stretch?  The only known limitation is that Nin needed Szeth's body for the fabrial to do anything.  It puts a stopper on some of the more outrageous possiblities (i.e. resurrecting Tanavast or bringing a spren fully into the Physical realm), but Kelsier suggests that rule may not be hard and fast.  His body was eaten by a kandra, yet here he is.  Maybe it isn't his original body he's in now, but that just raises more questions.  I don't know what to make of this many possibilities, but lemme know if you guys do. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Caevita

[manukos he/him]

i have the same problem with my intros  i think it is quite fine .

as for your hypothesis it seems sound since Nalan says that his body was dead ,his soul having lefthis body , but his brain had to be alive.
 

i dont  think that kelsier's return is the same  cause brain, unless his soul went into an other body ,(which is my theory ) and i belive that if resurecting a shard , or even a vessel was that easy Tanavast would have been resurected eons ago

[Yata he/him]

I think you are mixing things.

Szeth was physically dead but he was still in the timeframe of recovery.

He was not a Cognitive Shadow and his ties to the physical were still there.

Simply enough Healing was enough to resurrect him.

You May notice the same thing happened into Lift's Interlude with the Azish's Emperor, with Wax into BoM, Miles in AoL or any other being with tons of Healing avaliable.

Nale Simply used a Progression Fabrial to do the trick (we saw another Progression Fabrial in One of Dalinar's visions).

Edited May 21, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis he/him]

In addition to what @Yata said, Szeth had to still be alive for the fabrial to function. The effects of the fabrial start targeting the physical body. If Szeth had reached the point that his tie to the physical realm were severed, the fabrials effect couldn't have reached him. 

Nale would have attempted to use the fabrial, it would have tried to heal the corpse reaching out from the physical realm to the Cognitive and Spiritual try and build off of the templates there to enact its healing and found... Nothing. 

The fact that the fabrial worked means that Szeth was still connected to his physical body. 

[Yitzi2]

19 hours ago, Caevita said:

So, I was rereading Words of Radiance the other day (I gotta find a better intro seriously) and I was thinking about the fabrial which Darkness/Nin/Nalan uses to revive Szeth.  At the time Words of Radiance came out, I just kinda accepted it as a thing that apparently happened in the cosmere but I didn't know how.  There's a lot of that in the Cosmere.

Then Secret History came out, giving us a behind-the-scenes look at death in the cosmere, people's cognitive shadows briefly hesitating in the cognitive realm before moving on to the true afterlife in the series (the Tranquiline Halls or whatever you want to call it).  People with a significant amount of Investiture can stay a bit longer, but will eventually get pulled in.  Unless you're a Shard, of course.  Szeth isn't, which is why I figure Nin's fabrial works via pulling someone's cognitive shadow back in their body before they can move on.  It explains Nin's comment about "seconds later, and it would have been too late."  Szeth was about to move on, but Nin decided he wasn't done yet.

Always assuming my assumptions are correct, this raises two lines of thought in my mind.

Firstly, I assume something similar happens for Kelsier.  I am very curious just how similar.  We know he's spiked now, and we know Hemalurgic spikes can transfer power from other magic systems.  I mean, it's always possible that two distinct magic systems happen to share an ability, but I'll believe that when I see it.  And yes, fabrials are as much technology as they are magic in the traditional sense, but they seem to imitate other magics as often as not (see Oathgates and the bonding gem in a Deadblade).  Time will tell on that one.

Second, just how far can this ability stretch?  The only known limitation is that Nin needed Szeth's body for the fabrial to do anything.  It puts a stopper on some of the more outrageous possiblities (i.e. resurrecting Tanavast or bringing a spren fully into the Physical realm), but Kelsier suggests that rule may not be hard and fast.  His body was eaten by a kandra, yet here he is.  Maybe it isn't his original body he's in now, but that just raises more questions.  I don't know what to make of this many possibilities, but lemme know if you guys do. 

It is very possible that Tanavast already moved on in any case.  Prior Shardholders are able to stay as long as they want; that doesn't mean they all choose to.  In fact, we see that Ati didn't.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Yitzi2 said:

It is very possible that Tanavast already moved on in any case.  Prior Shardholders are able to stay as long as they want; that doesn't mean they all choose to.  In fact, we see that Ati didn't.

Tanavast didn't move on at all. His Cognitive Shadow merged with a Spren. He is the Stormfather now.

[Obnoxiousspren]

21 hours ago, Caevita said:

We know he's spiked now, and we know Hemalurgic spikes can transfer power from other magic systems.  I mean, it's always possible that two distinct magic systems happen to share an ability, but I'll believe that when I see it.

We actually know of at least two magic systems to share an ability: Yolish Lightweaving and Rosharan Lightweaving. Just thought I'd mention that

[Yitzi2]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

Tanavast didn't move on at all. His Cognitive Shadow merged with a Spren. He is the Stormfather now.

Source?  Because Shards can have spren even without their Cognitive Shadows merging with a spren after their death (proof: the Nightwatcher).

[+Extesian he/him]

39 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

Source?  Because Shards can have spren even without their Cognitive Shadows merging with a spren after their death (proof: the Nightwatcher).

There's quite a few but, for example,

Quote

QUESTION

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

source

 

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Source?  Because Shards can have spren even without their Cognitive Shadows merging with a spren after their death (proof: the Nightwatcher).

Do you have a source that states this? As far as I know, nothing has confirmed the relationship between the Nightwatcher and Cultivation. 

In any case, we have plenty of WoBs that say that the Stormfather has merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, including the word of the Stormfather.

[Yitzi2]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Do you have a source that states this? As far as I know, nothing has confirmed the relationship between the Nightwatcher and Cultivation.

I know I saw it somewhere, but that may just be a very well-supported fan-theory.

[Caevita he/him]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

The fact that the fabrial worked means that Szeth was still connected to his physical body. 

I guess I was just faked out by Nin's line about "Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties-- both spiritual and physical-- undone."  Maybe he was just speaking metaphorically?

[Spoolofwhool]

11 minutes ago, Caevita said:

I guess I was just faked out by Nin's line about "Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties-- both spiritual and physical-- undone."  Maybe he was just speaking metaphorically?

Sounds like he was talking about the connection between the Honorblade and Szeth's spiritual and physical, and its undoing.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Calderis he/him]

@Caevita

Like @Spoolofwhool said. I think he was far gone enough that any external magical connections would be severed. Nale waited that long for some symbolic reason as far as I can tell though, because the blade was unbound when he chose to let go of it. 

As is, I think Nale did it to impress some sense of power over Szeth, because as he said himself, a few moments more and Szeth would have been gone for good.

It was a pointless risk. Unless he worded it that way to impress Szeth and in reality he resurrected as soon as he was able to reach Szeth. 

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Caevita

Like @Spoolofwhool said. I think he was far gone enough that any external magical connections would be severed. Nale waited that long for some symbolic reason as far as I can tell though, because the blade was unbound when he chose to let go of it. 

As is, I think Nale did it to impress some sense of power over Szeth, because as he said himself, a few moments more and Szeth would have been gone for good.

It was a pointless risk. Unless he worded it that way to impress Szeth and in reality he resurrected as soon as he was able to reach Szeth. 

Except if the Truthless' status is magical too and Nale waited to get rid to the Oathstone's bond.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

Except if the Truthless' status is magical too and Nale waited to get rid to the Oathstone's bond.

True, but I have never been convinced that the Oathstone bond is anything more than symbolic 

[Stormlightning she/her]

It seems to me like the bond to the Oathstone was mostly 'honor' not magical since 1) it was Szeth's willingness to obey with exactness that led Nin to him, 2) Szeth mentions that he could have and almost did attack Taravangian while he held his Oathstone. I think he also mentioned it somewhere that he wasn't technically forced to obey, but that it was his own choice since he was Truthless (after all, he 'could have stopped the killing at any time').