Fuel/Focus for Shard Abilities

[Thanatos]

This thread is mainly about the Fuel/Focus needed to power a Shards given ability. Was on another thread but it was kinda derailing it. 

I quick rundown on my understanding: 

Person - Fuel/Focus - Shardic Conection. 

For example using the above three parts: 

Elend - Metal - Lerasium or Lerasium Alloy. 
or
Terrismen - Metal - DNA (from their original creation) 
or
Marsh - Metal - Bindpoints/Blood. 
or
Vasher - Colour - Breath. 
or
Kaladin - Stormlight - Spren. 

Without the fuel/focus then they cannot access the shards investiture to use the ability bestowed upon them. 

Looking at the list it appears that the fuel/focus is something created by Uncle Andy. For Mistborn the metals on Scadrial is the same composition as the metals on the other planets as a Mistborn can use the native metals of another plant to fuel their Allomantic abilities. Meaning Preservation and Ruin created them using the blueprint of Uncle Andy's creation. 

We cannot discuss Devotion and Dominion as their Shards are trapped in the CR, so their not inhabiting all three realms. 

--
Edit: 
Preservations Mist is not like Stormlight as only a chosen one of Preservation can use them. Other Mistborns and Mistings cannot use the Mist. 

Plus Stormlight is not of Honor. 
 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Thanatos

[Yata he/him]

I will quote myself from the other topic:

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Breath are slowly consumed in Awakening.

The Color seems to be an extra you Need to performe the Breath trasfert (like the Heat when you trasfert Stormlight).

What you have to understand is that: Breath, Stormlight, Mists, Dor and other things are Simply amount of Investiture. More precise, they are Kinetic Investiture....every One of them could fuel every magic system with the right "trick". They could have different proprierties for the Shard's Investiture they are made from...but they are mainly the same thing.

You could in theory, fueling Surgebinding with Breath or also with the Mists or with the Preservation's stream you gain from burning a metal. It Will be hard like Hell...but you could do It.

All this kinetic Investitures act as fuel for magic, you could not generate Energy/Power from nothing...the magic (at least the end positive ones) needs a source of power to act.

The Focus instead It's something that "shape" the effect the magic has. You could think to It as an interface.

It's the "man in the middle" between the fuel and the effect.

The Nalthis' focus is Command and the Breath thanks to the Command is imprinted with the right Cognitive Aspect to Place upon the target.

Similary the metal is the Filtrer for the Preservation's Power to be traslated into an effect.

Or the Form is the way a simple kinetic Investiture like the Dor turns into an effect.

 

I suggest to avoid to put the lerasium in the discussion as It adds only confusion without explain nothing...as the Lerasium is not a core part of the Metallic Arts at all.

And also if I think Stormlight is not made of Honor's Investiture, we have no proof therefore I will avoid to claim it as a fact

[Spoolofwhool]

I disagree with what you're postulating because that's not the makeup of a manifestation of investiture. Here's my opinion. 

Each manifestation of investiture has three necessary components: The user, the focus, and the fuel.

User: The entity using the magic. Usually a sapient entity, but can be other objects.

Focus: Something which somehow determines the outcome of the magic. 

Fuel: The default source of investiture which is used to power the magic.

 

For example:

Allomancy:

The user is the allomancer. The focus is the metal they burn. The fuel is Preservation's power. To put it all together: The allomancer draws Preservation's power through the metal. The metal filters it, shaping the power such that it causes a specific effect, such as rioting, soothing, leeching, metal pushing/pulling, etc.

Feruchemy:

The user is the feruchemist. The focus is the metal they store into. The fuel is the feruchemist. The feruchemist converts some of themselves into investiture, which is then stored into the metal. I think each metal can only store the investiture derived from a certain part of their being, which determines which attribute is stored.

Awakening:

The user is the awakener. The focus is the command they use. The fuel is breath. The awakener creates a mental command and passes on breath to the target. The mental commands shapes what the awakened object does while the breath grants it the investiture required to perform the necessary actions, which are slowly consumed over time. A side-effect is that colour is consumed from a nearby source, though how it does is unknown, and the type of colour seems to have no effect as far as I'm aware.

Surgebinding:

The user is the surgebinder. The focus is the spren/bond*, and gems**. The fuel is stormlight. The surgebinder accesses the specific two surges through their focus, and uses stormlight to bind it, which consumes the stormlight in the process. Additionally, when binding the surge of transformation to soulcast, gems are required as an additional focus to determine the essence being created. 
*spren/bond are two contended foci. Honestly, I don't think it matters unless the same type of spren is able to create different bonds.
**Gems aren't necessary for all surgebinding.

[Calderis he/him]

@Thanatos OK. In @Extesian's thread I told you you were misunderstanding a established realmatic term in the word focus.

Let me emphasize this because the system that @Spoolofwhool just lined out for you is pretty well established. 

The idea of metal as a the focus on Scadrial is established in the way we've been trying to get you to see directly by WoB. 

Quote

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

Does that help?

That is directly from Brandon in a Reddit AMA. So it works exactly as described where the focus is the determining factor in the power that manifests, not the source of the power. 

I'm not trying to be mean, but it's one thing to argue what Roshar's focus is, and another to say that the terminology is incorrect when it's definition is based on Brandon's description. 

[Thanatos]

Just real quick as im playing a game with my little bro> 

As per the Coppermind: 
'Awakening uses Breath and color drawn from non-living material as fuel while commands determine what effect is created.'

'Stormlight is a form of Investiture brought by the Highstorms of Roshar.'

Highstorms that were created prior to Honor and Cultivation arriving at the planet. 

'A focus is a specific magic-related term in the Cosmere, it is the method by which Investiture can be formed into magical effects. Magic systems and magical engineering use these focuses to filter Investiture into a magical effect.^[1] The focus is determined by the interaction of the Shardworld and a Shard but the World is the key factor and all magics will use the focus in some way, how it is used is determined by the interaction of the Shards.'

 

[Spoolofwhool]

I'm just going to point out something real quick. In my opinion, you're not adding anything to the discussion by simply posting definitions from the Coppermind, without adding your commentary on them. I've seen them before, I'm pretty sure Calderis has seen them, and we've formulated our opinions with that knowledge in mind. Without some argument as to why we should change our arguments based on that knowledge, there's no reason for us to.

I'll comment on the one discussion you made.

12 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

'Stormlight is a form of Investiture brought by the Highstorms of Roshar.'

Highstorms that were created prior to Honor and Cultivation arriving at the planet. 

This does not exclude the possibility the stormlight that existed before their arrival is not the same as the stormlight which currently exists, due to their interference. We know for certain that Cultivation has interfered with the highstorms as she influences crem, so there's no reason to think they haven't performed other changes.

Furthermore, there is no need for a manifestation of investiture to require the source of investiture to be of the shard which resulting in the formation of that manifestation of investiture. For instance, neither hemalurgy nor feruchemy appear to draw upon investiture from Ruin or Preservation in order to function, and we've received implicit confirmation that the nature of the users does not require an affiliation to either shard either. 

[Calderis he/him]

20 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Just real quick as im playing a game with my little bro> 

As per the Coppermind: 
'Awakening uses Breath and color drawn from non-living material as fuel while commands determine what effect is created.'

'Stormlight is a form of Investiture brought by the Highstorms of Roshar.'

Highstorms that were created prior to Honor and Cultivation arriving at the planet. 

'A focus is a specific magic-related term in the Cosmere, it is the method by which Investiture can be formed into magical effects. Magic systems and magical engineering use these focuses to filter Investiture into a magical effect.^[1] The focus is determined by the interaction of the Shardworld and a Shard but the World is the key factor and all magics will use the focus in some way, how it is used is determined by the interaction of the Shards.'

 

Alright, so you say that Stormlight is of Adonalsium, and not the Shards on Roshar. If what you state is true, how is an investiture of Adonalsium the focus for a magic system of the Shards? The Shards could be a focus for Adonalsium's investiture, because they are after all peices of Adonalsium. Why though, would a Adonalsium's investiture be keyed to shape a segmented and specialized portion of itself that did not exist while it was whole? 

And as per the WoB I quoted, if Stormlight is the focus, then how does it determine which power is used? Metal is the determining factor (focus) for the metallic arts and the molecular structure of the metal determines which power is put out. Stormlight is the same across the board so so it should provide you the same effect. By the example of the play dough nozzle, the focus should shape the power. So for the Stormlight to be the focus it should determine which surge is used by shaping the power from...? 

And as far as quoting the copper minds general definition of focus... I'll take a more specific description from Brandon over the coppermind every time. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata he/him]

Much more, in many factor Stormlight doesn't play a part at all.

A Knight Radiant without Stormlight has still his Resonance and his Shardblade for example. Same thing of course with a Deadblade's bond

[Thanatos]

Spoolofwhool,

My opinions are based on the facts we know. Are you saying the Coppermind is wrong? 

 

Quote

his does not exclude the possibility the Stormlight that existed before their arrival is not the same as the Stormlight which currently exists, due to their interference. We know for certain that Cultivation has interfered with the Highstorms as she influences crem, so there's no reason to think they haven't performed other changes.

I think the inference is there. Otherwise it would say that Honor or Cultivation creates Stormlight. As it fuels both powers/abilities. Brandon would change or advise it if that were untrue. 

 

Quote

Furthermore, there is no need for a manifestation of investiture to require the source of investiture to be of the shard which resulting in the formation of that manifestation of investiture. For instance, neither hemalurgy nor feruchemy appear to draw upon investiture from Ruin or Preservation in order to function, and we've received implicit confirmation that the nature of the users does not require an affiliation to either shard either. 

That exactly what i referred to in my OP. The middle area is of Uncle Andy. 
aka, Metal, Colour, Stormlight. 
These things would have been around prior to Uncle Andy being shattered. And if he created everything in the Cosmere than he created these things. 

Calderis,

Quote

Alright, so you say that Stormlight is of Adonalsium, and not the Shards on Roshar. If what you state is true, how is an investiture of Adonalsium the focus for a magic system of the Shards? The Shards could be a focus for Adonalsium's investiture, because they are after all peices of Adonalsium. Why though, would a Adonalsium's investiture be keyed to shape a segmented and specialized portion of itself that did not exist while it was whole? 

As i said in the above most. Brandon has said many times that everything in the Cosmere is of Uncle Andy. 

I say the Shards use that to their advantage.

 

Quote

And as per the WoB I quoted, if Stormlight is the focus, then how does it determine which power is used? 

Thats determined by the Spren that bonded with the person. Same with Metal, depends on the connection (Lerasium, Misting. Whatever the person has access to gets the power so long as the burn the correct metal).

 

Quote

Metal is the determining factor (focus) for the metallic arts and the molecular structure of the metal determines which power is put out. Stormlight is the same across the board so so it should provide you the same effect

This is my point! Read above. 

 

Quote

So for the Stormlight to be the focus it should determine which surge is used by shaping the power from...? 

No, Stormlight is the fuel/focus of the powers/abilities already obtained by the user. 

 

Quote

And as far as quoting the copper minds general definition of focus... I'll take a more specific description from Brandon over the Coppermind every time. 

As far as im aware the Copperminds don't  contradict the way things are (Cosmere wise)

Edited May 14, 2017 by Thanatos

[+Extesian he/him]

@Thanatos you may have misunderstood the Coppermind website. It is not a source of canon material, it is a wiki run by members/administrators of this website. Not every article is updated constantly or with the latest information. They administrators do an amazing job but it isn't a decisive source. Canon material and wording is anything in a published Cosmere story. Words of Brandon are pretty authoritative but even they can be misinterpreted or changed by Brandon. The Coppermind is an outstanding source, and way to find proper canon sources, but it's not the final word. 

I'm any case I think the issues here are more about your terminology, and what a focus is. But I just wanted to explain the Coppermind's purpose. And I'm sure someone will correct me if I've misunderstood. 

[Yata he/him]

Relevant WoB

Quote

LEINTON

Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen.

LEINTON

What would happen to the Breath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like Atium is.

Quote

QUESTION

So Stormlight and Breath are both just different manifestations of Investiture.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's correct.

Quote

QUESTION

I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Breath is definitely like Mist, it is in the form of the air.

QUESTION

And is Stormlight the same?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Stormlight is the same. Good questions!

QUESTION

Would Vasher be able to use Stormlight in the same way that he can get Breath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That would not be immediately easy, but Stormlight could feed Nightblood.

QUESTION

Which is why Szeth can wield Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Eh, you'll have to see if … but yes. That could theoretically happen. You can use most of the magics on most of the planets to fuel the other magics, if you know how to do it, it is not easy.

Honestly more than quoting the explicit WoB and Explain to you the mechanics behid (previous post)...I have an hard time to explain to how the Cosmere's magic works XD

[Thanatos]

Extesian

Quote

you may have misunderstood the Coppermind website. It is not a source of canon material, it is a wiki run by members/administrators of this website. Not every article is updated constantly or with the latest information. They administrators do an amazing job but it isn't a decisive source. Canon material and wording is anything in a published Cosmere story.

What part of what I have quoted on the Coppermind is wrong? Not subjective but wrong? 

 

Quote

Words of Brandon are pretty authoritative but even they can be misinterpreted or changed by Brandon. The Coppermind is an outstanding source, and way to find proper canon sources, but it's not the final word. 

I agree. No argument there. 

 

Quote

I'm any case I think the issues here are more about your terminology, and what a focus is

Still think the Coppermind is correct here. Brandon has not corrected it in any WoB. 

'A focus is a specific magic-related term in the Cosmere, it is the method by which Investiture can be formed into magical effects. Magic systems and magical engineering use these focuses to filter Investiture into a magical effect.^[1] The focus is determined by the interaction of the Shardworld and a Shard but the World is the key factor and all magics will use the focus in some way, how it is used is determined by the interaction of the Shards.'

Yata,

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like Atium is

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Breath is definitely like Mist, it is in the form of the air.

Like I said, only the ones chosen by Preservation could absorb the Mist, just like Breath. Only Endowment gives all the skill. Given her intent is 'Endowment!!'

I still dont see how my way of looking at things is against what we know to date.  

Edit: 
So the Atium part as being the same as Breath and Stormlight . {my response for some reason didnt go through on this.}

A renewable source: 
Breath, Well of Ascension, Atium. We dont know what this renewable source is for Honor, Cultivation, and the dead ones Ambition, Dominion, Devotion. The renewable source still does not go against my way of looking at things. 

From how I see it, Uncle Andy investiture is the way of fueling/focusing the power of a Shard. 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Thanatos

[Yata he/him]

@Thanatos It's really nice how you avoided the relevant parts to reply to something not really relevant.

The Investiture is a renewable source as when used it simply return to the source after a while and Atium is placed in the sentence only as reference to something renewable as well not as the same kind of "stuff"...This is not new and it's not the contested part.

What you missed is the fact that Breath is a fuel for magic. An Awakened Object would run out of Breath soon or later (simply Awakening took LOONG time to consume a Breath) and new Breath need to be provided if you want to keep him active. The fact that the Color draining happen also when there is no Awakening involved as when two people give their Breath.

On another note, I am not said Stormlight is of Honor. Honestly it's also meaningless...Simply don't present as a fact something we don't know.

[Thanatos]

Sorry but again Coppermind:

Quote

Investiture transcends the three realms: Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual that comprise most of the Cosmere. In the Physical Realm, Investiture is known to exist in solid, (i.e. Atium and Lerasium), liquid (Shardpools), and gaseous material forms (Preservation's Mists, Stormlight, BioChromatic Breath)...

Endowment breaks pieces off itself to resurrect the Returned, and Preservation powers Vin's Allomancy with the Mists; some magics, such as BioChroma and Feruchemy, deal with the use of power that already exists within a human [aka. Dna!] (be that naturally or by Shardic intervention). Others lack an explicit key; instead of pulling power directly from a Shard, Surgebinders draw from the Investiture of highstorms and direct it through their bond with their spren, similarly to fabrials.

Like Terrismen, Feruchemy and Breath is built into their very being from conception. Terrismen the race and the people from Sel as a whole (as we know it).

Aka, refer to OP three part graph

...

Edit.

Yell me where im wrong in the Coppermind that contradicts WoB.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Thanatos

[Spoolofwhool]

43 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Like Terrismen, Feruchemy and Breath is built into their very being from conception. Terrismen the race and the people from Sel Nalthis as a whole (as we know it).

Fixed that for you. 

Any how, I'm really confused by what has been going on since Thanatos has been replying in a really confusing way that skips some points made. If someone could sum up everything that could be cool.

45 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Yell me where im wrong in the Coppermind that contradicts Wo

It's not necessarily this, but just that it does present information that slants emphasis of certain parts of it. Here's an actual example though: The Coppermind lists the Survival Shard as a shard, which is incorrect.

 

3 hours ago, Thanatos said:

My opinions are based on the facts we know. Are you saying the Coppermind is wrong? 

You're going to be a bit more specific on which opinions.

3 hours ago, Thanatos said:

That exactly what i referred to in my OP. The middle area is of Uncle Andy. 
aka, Metal, Colour, Stormlight. 
These things would have been around prior to Uncle Andy being shattered. And if he created everything in the Cosmere than he created these things. 

First of all, we've explained why we don't think colour is the source of investiture for awakening. Expand on your discussion why. The coppermind page is correct that it is consumed in the process, but I think this is an example of the Coppermind slanting information incorrectly, by combining breath and colour as the fuel for awakening, when it should've indicated that they are separate parts. 
Secondly, it hasn't actually been confirmed that Adonalsium created the Cosmere. Pretty good chance though, but you need to keep in mind that's it's not explicit.

Quote

QUESTION

Was Adonalsium the one who created the cosmere universe as a whole?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is widely assumed to be the case

[Source]

 

[Calderis he/him]

@Thanatos

1. The Coppermind is awesome, but is a fan wiki and is known to have holes. WoB, unless countered by a book or a more recent WoB wins. 

2. WoB states that a magic focus is the nozzle in his play dough example and that the focus is separate from the fuel. 

3. In your own example both in this thread and the other you place spren as the determining factor for the surge. A.K.A. The nozzle/focus. 

You insist that the focus is Stormlight, and then contradict that statement in your example. 

This inconsistency says that you do not understand the point you are attempting to argue, which makes further discussion meaningless.