Talenel'Elin's Death Rattles

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

@Tariniel "Could it be that the some form of the Heralds' minds are held in their Blades? Being that the Honorblades are a large part of what makes a Herald a Herald, that seems to make sense to me. Taking this a little further, it could be that the Heralds are tortured on Braize, not only until they break, but until they actually die. At least physically. Their minds live on in the Honorblades, which then return to Roshar and are bonded by the bodies which will eventually become the new Heralds. There is even a WoB (It's here, I believe) which says that they can remain on Roshar for a certain period of time before another Desolation begins. That could be a transitional phase when the bodies accustom themselves to holding the Herald's mind within them, allowing for them to be fully adjusted and ready to carry out their individual missions once the Desolation starts. This 'Taln' could simply be the body holding the Herald Talenelat, a suitable explanation for Brandon's cryptic way of referring to him. What do you guys think?" 

This was a brilliant idea I ran across made by @Tariniel that I wanted to add to with a tiny bit of evidence

Here are all the Death Rattles that I believe to be made by Taln

Quote

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

This is the first and most related to the above paragraph. That shard of his soul could be the Honorblades. Which could explain that Taln's physical body is still in Braize. While his blade became the man known as Taln once Talenel broke physically in braize, splitting his cognitive shadow (which I also believe to be held in the blades) from his body. This "Shard of his soul" is now on Roshar somewhere... since there is another entire topic related to Talenel's blade I shall just maintain that the "man known as Taln" as said by a WoB must have touched the fallen honorblade and was imprinted or perhaps IS a living Honorblade, A Nightblood esque chracter who is an actual physical human.

Quote

You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die

This is Taln's death in my opinion.

Quote

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me

Perhaps the most shocking evidence of how devastating the betrayal of the other Heralds really is. Taln stands not just the average every day torment in hell, but rather one compounded. Atlas bearing the weight of a world in my opinion. Also the "Madness of them all" is interesting, since we know the "Heralds are all insane" per WoB, I wonder if perhaps this insanity was still given to the others even though they didn't return to Braize.

Quote

In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving

This last death rattle is Taln's blade returning to Roshar, along with his cognitive shadow to be implanted upon the new Taln.

All responses are welcome and arguments appreciated!

Edited May 9, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[Jedal he/him]

Well, why didn't Szeth become a clone of Jezrien then? He was holding the sword for years, and he never felt a thing, other than his own normal insanity.

 

That's my biggest hole in your theory.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

12 minutes ago, Jedal said:

Well, why didn't Szeth become a clone of Jezrien then? He was holding the sword for years, and he never felt a thing, other than his own normal insanity.

 

That's my biggest hole in your theory.

Because his cognitive shadow is already in someone else who first touched the blade. Jezrien is still alive all the Heralds are. Their blades no longer hold the shadows. Hole mended!  

[Jedal he/him]

13 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Because his cognitive shadow is already in someone else who first touched the blade. Jezrien is still alive all the Heralds are. Their blades no longer hold the shadows. Hole mended!  

So the bodies of the Heralds, which by all means should be regular surgebinder bodies... have immortality?

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

5 minutes ago, Jedal said:

So the bodies of the Heralds, which by all means should be regular surgebinder bodies... have immortality?

Yes. Or they're hopping from body to body, which I find doubtful. They are immortal through some means though.

[Yata he/him]

The possession in the Cosmere is not so Easy.

Much more the simple Taln's return is aganist this idea.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

11 minutes ago, Yata said:

The possession in the Cosmere is not so Easy.

Much more the simple Taln's return is aganist this idea.

Reference? Also do you agree with the DRs?

[Yata he/him]

On 9/5/2017 at 6:07 AM, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Reference? Also do you agree with the DRs?

Possession in the Cosmere required to pierce the subject'soul deeply. This is beyond the standard cracks your soul could generate alone...this is true also with a backdoor in someone's soul.

The only way the possession could work is with faulty/incomplete souls (like the Listeners. With them you could set the right backdoor. Notice that also in this case, It's not a true possession bit only a strong influence).

Notice also that a CS Will Simply lose aganist the right subject'soul for the Connections they shared with the body and thanks to the Investiture's interference.

About the scene of Taln's return. He appear from nothing covered in the same way a Blade appears. He is also without Stormlight's sources therefore "Healing" body to match Taln's One is really unlikely.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Yata

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

4 minutes ago, Yata said:

Possession in the Cosmere required to pierce the subject'soul deeply. This is beyond the standard crack your soul could generate alone...this is true also with a backdoor in someone's soul.

The only way the possession could work is with fauly/incomplete souls (like the Listeners. With them you could set the right backdoor. Notice that also in this case, It's not a true possession bit only a strong influence.

Notice also that a CS Will Simply lose aganist the right subject'soul for the Connections they It shared with the body and thanks to the Investiture's interference.

About the scene of Taln's return. He appear from nothing covered in the same way a Blade appears. He is also without Stormlight's sources therefore "Healing" body to match Taln's One is really unlikely.

Not soul. Mind. Also where did you find this? Arcanum Unbound?!

[Calderis he/him]

On the theory itself, I don't agree for pretty much the same reasons as @Yata

The only case of true possession I can think of in cosmere are

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

The Set's faceless immortals, and we don't know how they do it. My guess is they animate a corpse to get over most of the problems with cosmere possession. 

The closest second is Ruin controlling inquisitors directly, which took multiple spikes puncturing the sole to assert direct control. Single spiked people could only be influenced, not controlled. 

On the death rattles, I'll address them in order. 

Quote

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

The reference to the orders makes me see this as a Radiants perspective, not a Herald. 

Quote

You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die

I don't understand what makes this Taln? I mean, it could be, but there's nothing we've seen to distinguish anyone towards this death rattles. 

Quote

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me

Clearly Taln. I agree. 

2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving

This one, in my opinion, no evidence,is Szeth at the end of WoR "awakening" to the fact that he was never Truthless. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Calderis

[dantlee]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

On the theory itself, I don't agree for pretty much the same reasons as @Yata

The only case of true possession I can think of in cosmere are

Mistborn spoilers 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Set's faceless immortals, and we don't know how they do it. My guess is they animate a corpse to get over most of the problems with cosmere possession. 

The closest second is Ruin controlling inquisitors directly, which took multiple spikes puncturing the sole to assert direct control. Single spiked people could only be influenced, not controlled. 

On the death rattles, I'll address them in order. 

The reference to the orders makes me see this as a Radiants perspective, not a Herald. 

I don't understand what makes this Taln? I mean, it could be, but there's nothing we've seen to distinguish anyone towards this death rattles. 

Clearly Taln. I agree. 

This one, in my opinion, no evidence,is Szeth at the end of WoR "awakening" to the fact that he was never Truthless. 

A lot of people (and I agree) have speculated that the last one is actually Nale at the end of Edgedancer. 

[Calderis he/him]

@dantlee I hadn't considered that, but I can definitely see why. I may have to change my opinion on that one. 

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

On the theory itself, I don't agree for pretty much the same reasons as @Yata

The only case of true possession I can think of in cosmere are

Mistborn spoilers 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Set's faceless immortals, and we don't know how they do it. My guess is they animate a corpse to get over most of the problems with cosmere possession. 

The closest second is Ruin controlling inquisitors directly, which took multiple spikes puncturing the sole to assert direct control. Single spiked people could only be influenced, not controlled. 

On the death rattles, I'll address them in order. 

The reference to the orders makes me see this as a Radiants perspective, not a Herald. 

I don't understand what makes this Taln? I mean, it could be, but there's nothing we've seen to distinguish anyone towards this death rattles. 

Clearly Taln. I agree. 

This one, in my opinion, no evidence,is Szeth at the end of WoR "awakening" to the fact that he was never Truthless. 

The reference to ten orders could indeed mean it's a Radiant however, "shard of my soul" makes me think Herald. Although the grammar confuses me a bit.

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

Is that comma meaning that he is cursing or asking the almighty? Also does the exclamation point separate it from the last bit, because if it is read as "Why have you forsaken us almighty shard of my soul where have you gone? The meaning is vastly different. Calling the almighty a shard and such.

Storms I need to retake an English class on punctuation!

[Farnsworth]

Quote

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me 

I'm pretty sure that when he mentions the nine, he's talking about the nine Unmade. Otherwise, it would be the ten. If it is a Herald, then yes, there is the Herald plus nine others, so I guess that's nine, but it just seems an odd way to phrase it. Why would he say "the burdens of the nine others become mine"? The Unmade seem more likely.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Figberts said:

I'm pretty sure that when he mentions the nine, he's talking about the nine Unmade. Otherwise, it would be the ten. If it is a Herald, then yes, there is the Herald plus nine others, so I guess that's nine, but it just seems an odd way to phrase it. Why would he say "the burdens of the nine others become mine"? The Unmade seem more likely.

The word others in this context is unnecessary as he never addresses his original burden. I think the interpretation of this as Taln lamenting the burdens of the other nine Heralds is accurate.

The structure implies that there are burdens that should have been taken by nine people, and he is responsible for them. We know specifically of nine who abandoned their duty and left their burdens for Another. 

Can you explain your reasoning for what would make this about the Unmade? 

[Farnsworth]

He would make this about the unmade because the Heralds are replacing the Unmade. It was originally the "burden" of the Unmade to screw things up on Roshar. Now that the Heralds are insane, it is the duty of the Heralds to do so , and he is lamenting that.

[Calderis he/him]

It's now the duty of the Heralds? How are the Heralds replacing the Unmade? 

I don't think I understand. 

[Farnsworth]

I don't think the Herald's current insanity is entirely natural. I think it was imposed upon them by Odium. Why would such powerful Cognitive shadows go insane otherwise? Since the Heralds were originally good, it makes sense that they would see it as a burden. It was originally the "burden" of the Unmade, now it is the "burden" of the Hersld speaking.