Heraldic Hatred

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I think you are severely underestimating the power of a mental illness. Things like depression and PTSD don't just go away on their own, and people can't just "deal with it". People that have them generally need other people around them to help them through every step, along with other things like hope, something good to look forward to etc. Considering that the Heralds will be very ashamed of what their did after breaking the Oathpact, that they likely don't trust anyone with all that they are and have no good reason to keep on living (other than they probably can't die) I could very easily see them going into a bigger and bigger spiral. To add to this, there have been a few hints that what is happening to the Heralds' mental state after breaking the Oathpact may be realmatic and not just mental. 

As to breaking the Oathpact in the first place and abandoning Taln...they had no choice, I do not for a second believe that even the strongest, most resolute and most honorable person can hold on forever with no hope and no end in sight. Even the strongest rock is weathered away by the relentless tide. It was a question of what would go first, their honor or their minds, then Oathpact adieu. 

If anything I can't help but feel sorry for the Heralds. They basically had a choice between a horrible situation and a bad one. Did they do something wrong? Yes. Are they making trouble in Roshar right now? Yes. Would anyone else have made a different choice? No.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

On 5/5/2017 at 3:37 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think you are severely underestimating the power of a mental illness. Things like depression and PTSD don't just go away on their own, and people can't just "deal with it". People that have them generally need other people around them to help them through every step, along with other things like hope, something good to look forward to etc. Considering that the Heralds will be very ashamed of what their did after breaking the Oathpact, that they likely don't trust anyone with all that they are and have no good reason to keep on living (other than they probably can't die) I could very easily see them going into a bigger and bigger spiral. To add to this, there have been a few hints that what is happening to the Heralds' mental state after breaking the Oathpact may be realmatic and not just mental. 

As to breaking the Oathpact in the first place and abandoning Taln...they had no choice, I do not for a second believe that even the strongest, most resolute and most honorable person can hold on forever with no hope and no end in sight. Even the strongest rock is weathered away by the relentless tide. It was a question of what would go first, their honor or their minds, then Oathpact adieu. 

If anything I can't help but feel sorry for the Heralds. They basically had a choice between a horrible situation and a bad one. Did they do something wrong? Yes. Are they making trouble in Roshar right now? Yes. Would anyone else have made a different choice? No.

First of all. They DID 100% have a schoice. They Chose to abandon the oathpact. No one forced them to. And assuming there were not outside magical causes (of course), they should have been able to do something. Having PTSD is not an excuse for dishonorable action no matter what the circumstances.

And aren't they supposed to bepinnacles of human morality and justice? otherwise why would Tanavast have chosen them.

And the choice of their abandoning the oathpact is not nearly so bad as their failure to keep men together.They abandoned mankind allowing the hierocracy and who knows how many other disasters to occur without their leadership.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

"recovered" is a greater way to say adapted. And concerning edgedancer as I've already stated

  Hide contents

Realization does not mean recovery. He will have changed his behavior some, but the idea that he is somehow cured is baffling to me. We see him react strongly, and essentially flee. What about that is redeeming? He's been forced to face his delusion. It doesn't mean they've stopped. 

 

I'm not saying they should have "just gotten better" but they damnation well should have done more to help the world. Especially after 4500 years which should be enough time to learn how to live with anything. Especially for the Heralds

[Calderis he/him]

So the Heralds were most likely mortals when they entered the Oathpact. After who knows how long of endless war and torture they cracked and broke their oaths. Regardless of the abilities given to them, they were humans, who could not have emotionally comprehended what they had gotten themselves into. The fact that they lasted beyond a single desolation cycle shows that they were indeed, amazing people. It was not possible for them to last forever. 

If you want to be angry with someone, you should aim your anger at Honor. He asked 10 people to enter into a pact that it would be impossible for them to fully grasp, as well as inevitable for them to eventually fail, and rested the fate of the world on there fragile human shoulders. 

After the pact was broken well... Mental illness can be managed with treatment and medication, neither of which are to be found on Roshar. Without at least one of these things mental illnesses tend to get worse, and in world we have some evidence that the Heralds have indeed gotten worse and not better. 

PTSD specifically has a high risk of suicide, an escape from the confusion and pain that is denied to the Heralds because they would presumably return to torture if they took their own lives. So you have a group of broken people, with no ability to ameliorate their symptoms, and no chance of escape. The fact that some of them function at all is frankly amazing. The theory that Jezrien is "drooling" because he's always drunk fits this well as he's found a way to stay numb. 

You don't have to pity them although I definitely do, all I'm saying is that anger at them is misdirected. They did far better than anyone could have reasonably expected. I doubt the last 4500 years for them has been anything other than a different type of torture. 

[Vissy]

In the first place, feeling real anger - so much anger that it makes you write long hateposts about them on forums - towards fictional characters should make you take a step back and probably laugh at yourself a little.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

4 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

I'm not saying they should have "just gotten better" but they damnation well should have done more to help the world. Especially after 4500 years which should be enough time to learn how to live with anything. Especially for the Heralds

I'd like to point out that Nale, at least, believed he was helping the world. He thought the Radiants returning would lead to a Desolation, so he did everything in his power to try and stop what would essentially be the end of the known world. We know how incredibly wrong he was, but his intentions were to help. I wouldn't be surprised if the other Heralds had similar reasoning for their actions as well. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 5/1/2017 at 0:06 AM, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Can someone please give me a reason that they should not be universally reviled by every single reader of the SA!?

"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions." -- Alan Grant, Jurassic Park III

It's basically what @thegatorgirl00 said about Nalan. (which I would upvote if I hadn't hit the daily cap already)

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions." -- Alan Grant, Jurassic Park III

It's basically what @thegatorgirl00 said about Nalan. (which I would upvote if I hadn't hit the daily cap already)

I upvoted for you  but the entire point of the immortal words is that it's journey before destination. The ends never justify the means, and Naln seems to have abandoned this ideal completely.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Radiant_Jaeger said:

but the entire point of the immortal words is that it's journey before destination. The ends never justify the means, and Naln seems to have abandoned this ideal completely.

The Immortal Words only bind the KR in their actions, not the Heralds. Additionally, the Heralds predate the Immortal Words by at least 1 Desolation for that specific reason.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

The Immortal Words only bind the KR in their actions, not the Heralds. Additionally, the Heralds predate the Immortal Words by at least 1 Desolation for that specific reason.

But didn't Ishar create the words in order to bind the KR?

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

But didn't Ishar create the words in order to bind the KR?

We don't actually know if he created them, merely forced them to be bound by the words, or even if he just forced them to be bound by oaths and the Spren came up with the specifics.

What we do know is that the Heralds were not similarly bound by those Oaths, and they didn't need to be. They were driven by a higher purpose (which only lasted for so long, but that's been discussed already.) The Oathpact was their Oath, plain and simple. Ramifications of breaking that oath are unclear, but...

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

We don't actually know if he created them, merely forced them to be bound by the words, or even if he just forced them to be bound by oaths and the Spren came up with the specifics.

What we do know is that the Heralds were not similarly bound by those Oaths, and they didn't need to be. They were driven by a higher purpose (which only lasted for so long, but that's been discussed already.) The Oathpact was their Oath, plain and simple. Ramifications of breaking that oath are unclear, but...

lol the suspense!?  I have to give points. I have serious Gollum syndrome towards the Heralds (hating those who deserve pity)

I guess "It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.
Pity? It is pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me Gollum has some part to play in this, for good or evil..."

You can essentially replace Gollum with Heralds.

[galendo]

On 5/2/2017 at 9:03 AM, thegatorgirl00 said:

Is it really the Herald's place to try and keep the peace? Humanity stayed together for so long because they were fighting a common enemy. After the Desolations ended, humanity would have started to break apart and fight each other. The Heralds would basically become all powerful dictators in the name of keeping peace. Is that actually moral? 

That's an interesting moral question.  On the one hand, it's hard to imagine things turning out worse for Roshar if the Heralds had gone that route.  On the other hand, hindsight is 20-20.

...

After thinking about it for a while, I'm going to say that, yes, becoming all-powerful dictators would have been the more moral choice.  (Besides, I'm not entirely sure that they're anywhere near all-powerful.  We know they can be killed.  The question is, are they Lord Ruler-level powerful or are they Twinborn-level powerful?)  At least, it would have been more moral provided they ruled with a light hand.  Is there any real difference between the law saying "You'll be executed if you murder someone" and, say, Jezrien saying the same thing?  Besides, Roshar is chock-full of powerful dictators anyway.  It's not like there's anything like a democracy anywhere that we've seen (maybe with the Shin?).  The closest we've got is probably Alethkar, which is about one step less representative than an oligarchy.

So, yeah -- if they'd kept the peace, or done almost literally anything useful rather than fade into the background, Roshar would be a lot better off.  I'd say failing to contribute when you have both the knowledge and the ability smacks more of selfishness than of morality.

[Spoolofwhool]

I'm noticing two theoretical things which are being treated as fact, so I'm going to point them out so that people are aware of them.

First, it is not verified fact that Honor asked the ten people to enter the Oathpact and become Heralds. While it is a likely possibility, my personal speculation is otherwise, and I haven't seen anything to support either of them strongly.

Second, it is not verified fact that Ishar, in any way or suggestion, caused, chose, or incited the choosing of the Immortal Words which bind the KRs. Once again, possibility, but not really verified in any way. Personally, I think there's more to suggest otherwise.

 

Regarding the main topic. I honestly see no reason to hate the Heralds so vehemently. First of all, as pointed out, they are mentally ill, and saying they should just "gotten over it" is, to me, a poor attitude to bear towards people with mental illness. Furthermore, I don't see why they are so terrible people for not continuing to lead the people of Roshar following the Aharietiam. They were broken people. While I agree that their call to abandon the Oathpact is a bit more questionable, I don't think they had an obligation to lead once they had. As stated, the people had the KR to lead though, and I doubt the Heralds could have foretold that the KRs were going to break down over time. 

Now while I don't hate them, I don't pity them either. They aren't victims of chance, they are victims are their own choices, made for reasons we don't even know about. They willingly picked up the burdens they have carried and are now carrying. I'm not discounting some pity to them in the future however, if it does turn out that they were tricked into abandoning the Oathpact, with the person who tricked them knowing they would degrade as they have. 

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

45 minutes ago, galendo said:

Besides, I'm not entirely sure that they're anywhere near all-powerful.  We know they can be killed.  The question is, are they Lord Ruler-level powerful or are they Twinborn-level powerful?)

I do not believe the Heralds are all powerful. The statement was more about how they would be perceived by people, based on the fact that Ishar singlehandedly destroying all the KR is not viewed as unreasonable and the people were often reduced to Stone Age level technology after a Desolation. This is a huge gap in power. Many Rosharan religions already view the Heralds as gods. 

32 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

First, it is not verified fact that Honor asked the ten people to enter the Oathpact and become Heralds. While it is a likely possibility, my personal speculation is otherwise, and I haven't seen anything to support either of them strongly.

We do have this quote from the Prelude. 

Quote

Jezrien hesitated, looking at the sword, then bowed his head and turned away. As if ashamed. “We chose this burden willingly. Well, we can choose to drop it if we wish.”

I happen to think that the Oathpact was not completely consentual on the part of the Heralds, as I mentioned in a previous post. From what we've seen, though, I think Honor's intent would prevent him from outright forcing the Heralds into it. 

[Spoolofwhool]

3 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

We do have this quote from the Prelude. 

Yes, we know that the Heralds willing took up their duties. We don't know who initiated the idea though, so claiming that Honor asked people, like it is fact, incorrectly slants that theory.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I happen to think that the Oathpact was not completely consentual on the part of the Heralds, as I mentioned in a previous post. From what we've seen, though, I think Honor's intent would prevent him from outright forcing the Heralds into it. 

I kind of agree. I don't think honor lied to them, or even that they were somehow mislead by whatever entity proposed the oathpact. I just think that immortality, as much as it is sought after and idealized, is not something a mortal mind can truly comprehend. An eternity of War and torture is something that, with the best intentions, they may have agreed to, but the reality was more than anyone could possibly bear. 

[KnightofLight]

I find it hard to even imagine living 4500 years or longer. I think that by definition "a person is considered insane or crazy if their version of reality is drastically different than the social norm" and that is something I paraphrased. The heralds made a choice. But I also want to mention that even tho Taln died and he wasn't given a choice to abandon the oath pact doesn't mean it wasn't planned. I believe Jez said to Kelek that Ishar believes that if one remains in damnation it will keep the oathpact intact. So if by some circumstance that only 2 heralds survived would they abandon them all? 

[Reborn radiant]

17 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

And assuming there were not outside magical causes (of course), they should have been able to recover from their ptsd because 4500 YEARS is enough time. Having PTSD is not an excuse for dishonorable action no matter what the circumstances. Every soldier knows that

They lived a relatively peaceful life of 4500 years, yes.
But they lived it alone. Doesn't recovery from any mental illness need emotional support from friends or family? Heralds were essentially subjected to millenia of torture. Much much longer than 4500 years, I would guess. And it is not just the time between desolations, it is the desolations too. Imagine being in incredibly pain every second of your life, and then suddenly you are free. No more pain, no more torture. But then you are not completely free. You were freed from torture only to take up the incredible responsibility of leading humanity ever again, and that too in a battle, something that would cause more pain to them, and something they wouldn't want to be a part of because of all that torture they have faced.

Heralds didn't have a chance at a happy life. Heralds didn't have a peaceful future in their future. The only future they could see (and probably had) were a cycle of torture and war, over and over and over. I don't know, I am really bad at analogies, but imagine suffering from a really painful disease most of your life and when you are suddenly cured of that disease, you get another and you know full well that you are going to suffer again once this is done. I know it is impossible to be empathetic to them, but it is very easy to sympathize with them.

More over, aren't you judging herlads by their lowest point instead of their normal behavior? We have literally no pint of view chapters from any of the heralds pre insanity. They were probably compassionate, probably honorable, probably vile or just bland. We do not know. I am not hating on heralds because they abandoned man kind, I am sure they had no other choice. ( In their point of view. Please look from their point of view, everything will make way more sense)

Anyway what I want to say is this: 4500 years of lonely life, with their own illnesses and no-one to rely on or trust, WILL NOT heal you of your mental disorders.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

On 5/2/2017 at 3:28 AM, Rob Lucci said:

OP: Taln, is that you?

lol I just got this, and Yes

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

8 minutes ago, Reborn radiant said:

They lived a relatively peaceful life of 4500 years, yes.
But they lived it alone. Doesn't recovery from any mental illness need emotional support from friends or family? Heralds were essentially subjected to millenia of torture. Much much longer than 4500 years, I would guess. And it is not just the time between desolations, it is the desolations too. Imagine being in incredibly pain every second of your life, and then suddenly you are free. No more pain, no more torture. But then you are not completely free. You were freed from torture only to take up the incredible responsibility of leading humanity ever again, and that too in a battle, something that would cause more pain to them, and something they wouldn't want to be a part of because of all that torture they have faced.

Heralds didn't have a chance at a happy life. Heralds didn't have a peaceful future in their future. The only future they could see (and probably had) were a cycle of torture and war, over and over and over. I don't know, I am really bad at analogies, but imagine suffering from a really painful disease most of your life and when you are suddenly cured of that disease, you get another and you know full well that you are going to suffer again once this is done. I know it is impossible to be empathetic to them, but it is very easy to sympathize with them.

More over, aren't you judging herlads by their lowest point instead of their normal behavior? We have literally no pint of view chapters from any of the heralds pre insanity. They were probably compassionate, probably honorable, probably vile or just bland. We do not know. I am not hating on heralds because they abandoned man kind, I am sure they had no other choice. ( In their point of view. Please look from their point of view, everything will make way more sense)

Anyway what I want to say is this: 4500 years of lonely life, with their own illnesses and no-one to rely on or trust, WILL NOT heal you of your mental disorders.

Hmmm I didn't think more time would actually hurt them more and drive them into a spiral because they used to be paragons among men, but I can see how having broken an oath and having an eternity to think about it might not help.

[Yata he/him]

Another point to considerate is also their status. As Cognitive Shadows their Mind could act different rather than a true living being. Many time the CS are compared to Spren, something like "Humanspren". It's possible their are Influenced by many factors rather their own mental illness alone.

They are still under the Oathpact regard what they think, they maybe recive a bad feed when Honor died and Odium could still try to influence them (I think at this point they are quite well Connected with him) to worse their situation. We know Cognitive Entities are influencable by collettive mindsets. It's possible the Heralds are struck between the Roshar's view of them and their own being (like two voice in your head that try to make you two different persona).

This for the magical side. Returning to the mundane, for some of them Will be painful also see other Heralds suffering. Both as a monito and for pure empaty.

I honestly think Jezrien has an hard time to know her daugher was in an endless pain and now in a self destruction attitude.

Maybe the Shalash's art destruction is Simply a way to hurt herself... something She really can't do because She will return into Damnation upon suicide.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

9 minutes ago, Yata said:

Another point to considerate is also their status. As Cognitive Shadows their Mind could act different rather than a true living being. Many time the CS are compared to Spren, something like "Humanspren". It's possible their are Influenced by many factors rather their own mental illness alone.

They are still under the Oathpact regard what they think, they maybe recive a bad feed when Honor died and Odium could still try to influence them (I think at this point they are quite well Connected with him) to worse their situation. We know Cognitive Entities are influencable by collettive mindsets. It's possible the Heralds are struck between the Roshar's view of them and their own being (like two voice in your head that try to make you two different persona).

This for the magical side. Returning to the mundane, for some of them Will be painful also see other Heralds suffering. Both as a monito and for pure empaty.

I honestly think Jezrien has an hard time to know her daugher was in an endless pain and now in a self destruction attitude.

Maybe the Shalash's art destruction is Simply a way to hurt herself... something She really can't do because She will return into Damnation upon suicide.

I think it would be cool if he were made worse by her. Off destroying what she (presumably) used to love could really hurt a Father to see in his daughter.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

12 hours ago, KnightofLight said:

But I also want to mention that even tho Taln died and he wasn't given a choice to abandon the oath pact doesn't mean it wasn't planned. I believe Jez said to Kelek that Ishar believes that if one remains in damnation it will keep the Oathpact intact. So if by some circumstance that only 2 heralds survived would they abandon them all? 

(As I don't like the "clearly Ishar is the traitor guy from the diagram" stuff) I personally feel that while they may have been planning it beforehand, the evidence points towards it being a spur of the moment thing near the end. I can't speak for if Taln knew, but Kalak was not aware that they were planning to give up. For all the other 7 knew, Kalak died too, since Jezrien was also the only one who didn't leave him behind.

More than likely Ishar learned that Taln was dead from some scout or runner(which could be how Jezrien knew where he died) and Ishar made the decision to test his theory. He told whichever others were there at the time, and they agreed. This assumed the agreement or death of any Heralds not yet present at the Circle of Blades, like Kalak and presumable at least one more did (Roshar.. heck, even Shinovar is a big place, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for some to have longer treks back to the Circle)

So if by some circumstance that only Ishar and Jezrien survived, it depends on whether Ishar knows that. If he could reasonably assume that at least half of the Heralds survived then he might go through with it, but once he learned that they were the last two.. I feel that he might reconsider.

[Radiant_Jaeger he/him]

On 5/6/2017 at 9:30 AM, The One Who Connects said:

(As I don't like the "clearly Ishar is the traitor guy from the diagram" stuff) I personally feel that while they may have been planning it beforehand, the evidence points towards it being a spur of the moment thing near the end. I can't speak for if Taln knew, but Kalak was not aware that they were planning to give up. For all the other 7 knew, Kalak died too, since Jezrien was also the only one who didn't leave him behind.

More than likely Ishar learned that Taln was dead from some scout or runner(which could be how Jezrien knew where he died) and Ishar made the decision to test his theory. He told whichever others were there at the time, and they agreed. This assumed the agreement or death of any Heralds not yet present at the Circle of Blades, like Kalak and presumable at least one more did (Roshar.. heck, even Shinovar is a big place, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for some to have longer treks back to the Circle)

So if by some circumstance that only Ishar and Jezrien survived, it depends on whether Ishar knows that. If he could reasonably assume that at least half of the Heralds survived then he might go through with it, but once he learned that they were the last two.. I feel that he might reconsider.

I think the traitor from the diagram is Renarin. "FUUUUUUUUTUUUURE"

Edited May 8, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger