WORDS OF RADIANCE SPOILERS - Adolin's Consequences in "Oathbringer"

[marsoupial they/them]

OK, wait. 

Hold up.

Nale.

[iohn he/him]

Edgedancer spoiler

Spoiler

Nale may be re-thinking some things right now, though i suppose its possible he shows up to Urithiru, tells people who he is and sort of deputizes himself and reinstitutes the law that they had there the last time there were radiants.

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

where does Brandon say that about Adolins Arc? Do you have a link i'd love to check it out!

Alright. I took the time to fish out Brandon's exact words, which is a good thing as it clarifies the context.

I am well aware that many people are very interested in what is happening to Adolin, and I consider him one of the more interesting and unexpected developments of the series, in deviation from the original outline. I intend to dig into things with him in the book.

This was in answer to someone asking about Adolin's participation within Oathbringer. It seems I had forgotten about the "in deviation from the original outline" part of the answer. Thus, Brandon didn't mean to say Adolin's arc was unexpected based on readers's various theory making, but in reference to the original outline of the story. Since Adolin actually died in this original outline (or at least, he died in one of the original outline, I cannot know if Brandon meant this one or another one), I sincerely feel him "dying" is highly unlikely.

7 hours ago, iohn said:

Throwing in a Secret History / Mistborn spoiler here

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Maybe Adolin does end up on the chopping block, gets executed, then continues his crusade in the Tranqueline Halls, or has some cognitive realm adventures Kelsier style.
I mean I know he doesn't currently have access to a shard to pull that kind of move but maybe something comes available to him before the actual day of execution.
My main point is just that we should assume he survives because of a WoB that he continues to have an interesting character arch. (A WoB I also am interested to see as I hadn't seen that before.)

 

Not impossible as nothing is ever impossible, but I would rate it as unlikely. We must keep in mind Adolin isn't one of the main protagonists and Brandon has been firm in his intentions to never promote him to such role. Hence, Adolin's story arc only exists because it enters in relation with the main protagonists: he doesn't really have one of his own nor do I feel Brandon desires to give him one. Not once, within the three years since the release of WoR has Brandon given any words and/or indications he might change his mind about Adolin, so while it isn't theoretically impossible it might happen, I am forced to conclude giving Adolin a dedicated character arc isn't among Brandon's list of priorities.

Hence, if Adolin dies, I expect him to remain... dead. Also, see my answer above, Brandon mentioned Adolin's arc was unexpected based on what it used to be. Early on, Adolin died in WoK. I cannot know if Brandon was referring to this plan or to another one, but my thoughts are dying right now seems as one of the least likely possibilities.

7 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I doubt Kaladin will care about the legal aspects of it, he will likely decide his stance based on whether he sees what Adolin did as right. The reason why he backed up from the Elhokar plot wasn't because it broke the law, it was because it was wrong to let someone die just because they were incompetent, or for revenge. Adolin did not kill Sadeas out of revenge, he did it out of precaution. Sadeas has already proven that he will do his damnedest to kill Dalinar and as many people around him as he can.

In any case, I find it hard to believe it would break a major alethi law. Remember the assasin when crossing the bridge in WoR that led to Shallan and Kaladin ending in the chasms, and countless nameless soldiers dying? Or the 6000 soldiers killed in the Tower in WoK thanks to Sadeas? He did not seem worried that he would be blamed of any law breaking in those cases, and specially in the assasin case I find it hard to believe he would have a lot more leeway than what Adolin did. As such the conflict from his actions should be more with his family than anything else.

As for this...I have been getting a niggling feeling since WoR that Dalinar should leave Alethkar alone in the mid term, in either Elhokar or Adolin, or anyone else's hands, and focus on restablishing the Knights Radiant. Applying alethi laws to radiants would be absurd in some cases, and similarly some radiant laws could not fit too well with alethi. Mainly as so far it seems mainy details of the laws could be very order specific. And Dalinar will probably have to eventually accept that. At the moment he has an idealistic idea of what he wants to do, but he can't hope to hold Elsecallers or Dustbringers accountable for some things which Windrunners would see as horrific, but which would be standard matters for them.

I have several comments on this post and several others going in the same direction. 

First, I doubt Kaladin's opinion on the matter will matter much. He is far-away in Heartstone and potentially on his way towards Kholinar which implies that, by the time he mkes it back to Urithiru, Adolin will have been dealt with. Also, even if he has an opinion, Kaladin, despite being a Radiant, isn't in a position to enforce and/or influence the course of law. I just don't see him mattering in this affair. Oh he might offer support and/or care and/or not care about what befalls Adolin once he made aware of it, but I doubt he'll be a driving agent here.

Second, Dalinar cannot separate the Radiants from the political apparel which is Alethkar. He is striving to built a state of law where all laws would be fair and applied to all, not just those missing the required connections to buy themselves out of trouble. He thus cannot afford to have a force of rogue agents obeying no laws but their very incomplete oaths. In other words, a group of people cannot stand above all others and above all laws: Radiants cannot be allowed to kill whomever they want to kill simply because it fits their personal whims without entering in contradiction with their very elastic oaths. I thus do not think Dalinar is going to roam on his own, searching for Radiants for a very long time. As a leader, he will be more efficient if he remains in a defined seat of power where he can easily be found. Also, his group of Radiants numbers four individuals. It will be years before this small group grows large enough to warrant an independent legal structure. For now, it is reasonable to think Dalinar has ample abilities to keep on leading Alethkar and the new Radiants.

Third, I once asked to whom would the murder of Sadeas matter the most. I offered a lengthy explanation as to how the various parties might react: Ialai, Dalinar, Elhokar, the others Highprinces and Shallan. I left out Kaladin as per point one, I don't what he thinks will matter in the denouement. I also left out Navani because I don't feel what she thinks will be important enough to steer the final outcome. I left out Jasnah because, just like Kaladin, I don't think she will be around for her opinion to matter. Also, combined with the old WoB wanting some people to think what Adolin did was wrong, very, very wrong, I had thought Dalinar's opinion might be the most important one. I was told, perhaps, just perhaps I was wrong. I was told that while my analysis was astute and likely right, Dalinar might not be the opinion which will matter the most. I was also told I had left out someone important.

Whom did I forget? I scratch my head over this one up until I gathered I left out the most important player: Adolin. There will be those who'll strongly disagree with Adolin, who'll want him to be severely punished and there will be those who won't care so much for it, but in the end, what might end up mattering the most is how Adolin deals with it. His reaction might be what will drive this specific narrative and it might give Dalinar more headaches combined to additional grey hair more than the deed itself.

How will Adolin react? Several people have emitted the hypothesis Adolin would own the murder, would justify his actions rationally, but I fear those conclusions are in direct contradiction with how the scene player out. In other words, had Adolin purposefully decided Sadeas needed to die, had he come to the rational conclusion it was the only possible solution, then yes, perhaps he would own it. Except he didn't. He didn't think rationally, he didn't kill Sadeas out of need: he killed him out of rage. He lost it. He allowed his emotions to get the better of him: he absolutely didn't think it through so no way will he come forth and own it. He made a mistake and he knows it. Adolin is an emotional firecracker, so no matter how he reacts, we can be sure it will first be emotive before it becomes more rational. 

My thoughts are Adolin will react badly. He has broken his father's codes and no matter how much bravado he is putting on, he just isn't ready to confront his father over such issues. I honestly do not see him "owning it" or "being proud of it" or "thinking he did right", not when the scene highlighted how out of control he was, not when his first reaction, after coming out of his daze is to be both terrified and shocked.

[king of nowhere]

in the original plan adolin got killed? does this come from way of kings prime?

@ how adolin sees the deed: I agree with all you say, but adolin also has shown a good emotional resilience once the initial outburst is over. his friends tried to kill him in the arena, but he didn't mope about it like every other character who was betrayed by someone, he got over it in minutes. i don't remember him really being hurt by anything; any tiime,he got over it soon. so i expect him to get over it too, and come to terms. and I expect that if adolin is called to trial (my favourite scenario is still that he jumps in to save some poor sod who is being accused unjustly) I expect him to hold himself well.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

in the original plan adolin got killed? does this come from way of kings prime?

@ how adolin sees the deed: I agree with all you say, but adolin also has shown a good emotional resilience once the initial outburst is over. his friends tried to kill him in the arena, but he didn't mope about it like every other character who was betrayed by someone, he got over it in minutes. i don't remember him really being hurt by anything; any tiime,he got over it soon. so i expect him to get over it too, and come to terms. and I expect that if adolin is called to trial (my favourite scenario is still that he jumps in to save some poor sod who is being accused unjustly) I expect him to hold himself well.

I do not know.. A few years back, Brandon personalized a book for someone asking about "something about Adolin". He wrote Adolin initially died within the first draft of WoK, but he now has a bigger role. I do not know which draft he was referring too and/or if this other WoB about his future story arcs relates to this one or to another. It is just impossible to tell, we would need to ask Brandon.

As for Adolin, we have never been privy to his reaction following his friends betrayal: he has no viewpoints to broach the subject and once we read him again, he is busy with the final battle. We thus cannot say how he did react to the betrayal as his reaction wasn't featured in the book. Mind, it does not mean he didn't have one, it just means Brandon prefers to expend on Kaladin's inner thoughts than Adolin, hence the several chapters focusing on Kaladin sitting in prison. So I would not say your statement he got over it in minutes isn't accurate. Back in chapter 28, Adolin is genuinely hurt over realizing his friendships weren't worth much: he said the thought hurt more than any blows he ever received on the battlefield, so it does impact him. We just don't get to read it because he isn't a main protagonist.

Adolin within all of his scenes has always have two reactions: the one inside of him, the tempest, the fear, the rage and the one outside of him, the calm, the confidence, the strength. Since we almost always read Adolin as a third person's perspective, we almost always see the second Adolin, the one who isn't bothered by much, but whenever we move into his thoughts, we see he isn't immune to events. Inside, he is stressed out, he is anxious, he is afraid, he isn't sure he can be all he claimed to be. In fact, I'd argue he is slowly losing it over seeing his world crumbling around him, he also has a lot of pressure. Dalinar expects nothing sort of perfection from him.

Thus, I do not buy the argument Adolin is so mentally strong nothing ever gets to him: we know this isn't true. If it were, he wouldn't have killed Sadeas, he would have gotten married a long time ago and he wouldn't worry about who he was. It does get to him, but he tries very hard not to show it. The question now is, how long can he keep it up before the mask drops?

For the rest, I certainly do not think Adolin would allow anyone to take the blame, but I also certainly do not think he'd allow things to go as far as to a trial before opening up. He is honest and straight-forward: he'll speak up to Dalinar within the first 10 pages of Oathbringer  My thoughts are Adolin will feel he isn't worth being named Kholin. Remember how Dalinar once said: "As long as you of my house, you will wear my colors"? I say, Adolin will remove his uniform out of shame and guilt: he isn't worth being a member of his household. What happens next though is up for grabs, but I doubt there will be a trial.

Edit: 

Example of Adolin "owning it":

When he decides he needed to support his father even if his visions of the future are scarring/unnerving him. After a good night of sleep and a warm bath, he comes to the conclusion he has to be the one to meet up Eshonia. His decision is born out of rational thinking and not emotive impulsiveness. When the time comes, he confronts his father, he stares at him in the eyes and he holds his ground even if he states it was very hard for him to do so. This is Adolin owning it, this is rational, calm, level-headed Adolin.

Example of Adolin not "owning it" as well:

Back in WoK, he needed to talk to Dalinar about his visions. He asks for an audience and is persistently denied it. He ends up exploding and yelling at his father in a very public place because he couldn't contain it anymore. Afterwards, he spends days avoiding his father, avoiding confronting him up until Dalinar decides it is enough and summons him. Then, Adolin cannot apologize for his words as he needed to say them, but he apologizes for how and where he said them. He doesn't look at his father, he looks down. He owns his wording, but not his actions. He doesn't make the first steps, Dalinar does.

These are two examples of Adolin going agaisnt Dalinar: in one case he rationally comes to the conclusion he has to, in the other case, he feels he needs to, but he lashes out. In the first case, he talks of how hard it was for him to stand up to Dalinar, even though he calmly reflected he had too, in the second case, he just evades his father and doesn't come around until Dalinar fetches him.

Murdering Sadeas is much worst than example number two: it wasn't born out of deep thinking. He'll react badly. I think.

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by maxal

[Lwarch]

I bet some type of exile will be his consequence. Dalinar will probably argue with the ruling, which will be a huge conflict in the book.

[king of nowhere]

@maxal

what you say makes a lot of sense, and you clearly understand adolin much better than i do (feminine intuition, or you being a great adolin fan? :P)

well, I really hope adolin remains himself. It would be really painful to see such a good man being turned into something less than he is. I'd rather see him dead on the battlefield.

[cue to brandon reading this and thinking "and when my readers will anguish, they will know how good a writer I am to make them feel like that! muahaha!"]

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lwarch said:

I bet some type of exile will be his consequence. Dalinar will probably argue with the ruling, which will be a huge conflict in the book.

While I cannot presume to know what Brandon has in store for Adolin within the next book, I somehow doubt it will be exile.

Here my reasons to doubt this is a likely outcome:

1) Adolin isn't a main protagonist

As much as it hurts to keep on hearing Brandon confirming and re-confirming how he has no plans within the future, any future, to give Adolin much more page time then he currently has. Worst, the planning for book 3 implies much less page time for Adolin. Hence, as much as I hate it, as much as I keep thinking it is a mistake to leave Adolin onto the sidewalk, there isn't much I can do about it. Sadly, I have to take it into consideration when it comes to future story arcs. 

Based on my personal perspective, an exile story arc implies a given character to be unwillingly sent away, on far-away lands. Obviously, while being away, the character meets new people, has challenges to meet and, in the end, this unwanted path ends up providing a growth arc. Having your character go into an exile is the perfect excuse to have him, and the readers, discover new lands, new cultures which serves to supplement the world-building, which is great and amazing, but for it to work, you first need to give your character.... viewpoints. As it stands, Adolin doesn't have enough viewpoints nor a significantly large enough role within the story to take over this role.

Since Brandon has always been adamant Adolin wasn't getting a focus arc and/or a dedicated book and/or a bigger story arc in any upcoming book, sending him into exile doesn't appear as the most probably move. Of course, he might just use the plot arc to remove him all together from the main narrative, but I'd rather not think about this eventuality. It might happen, but I fail to see which purpose it would serve. Removing Jasnah had a purpose not to forget Brandon plans to write much more of her, but Adolin?

It just sounds improbable.

2) Szeth is already championing an exile story arc

Duplicating story arcs within the same series hardly ever is a good idea and while Szeth currently reads as a much more minor character than Adolin, Brandon has confirmed he had huge plans for him. These plans includes a flashback story revolving around Szeth's exile from Shinovar. Hence, it makes it more unlikely for Brandon to use a similar story arc for Adolin.

Overall, if someone asks for my thoughts, I think it unlikely Adolin will be exiled and/or sent away. I also doubt he'll run away or take the road of renegade. 

42 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

@maxal

what you say makes a lot of sense, and you clearly understand adolin much better than i do (feminine intuition, or you being a great adolin fan? :P)

well, I really hope adolin remains himself. It would be really painful to see such a good man being turned into something less than he is. I'd rather see him dead on the battlefield.

[cue to brandon reading this and thinking "and when my readers will anguish, they will know how good a writer I am to make them feel like that! muahaha!"]

Feminine intuition? Huh... I am not sure... Several themes revolving around Adolin happen to be ones I am personally familiar with. I often said Adolin was my male-counter part (alright not in every aspect, I never serial dated), the character's core thus ring several sympathetic bells within myself. And I have spent a lot of time analyzing it, thinking about it, theorizing about it back and forth: if someone ever has enough time to waste to read every single post I have written, they would see how my thought and opinion have fluctuates through out the last 3 years. Also, each time I get a new WoB, I revise my Adolin character analysis in consequences: some ideas have become irrelevant with time, other seems to be roaming within the right direction.

I do agree seeing Adolin drastically changed from the character we all know and love wouldn't be a satisfying read. Maybe it would make a OMG moment, but I find those short-lived: I wouldn't through a good character under the bus just for two seconds of marvel. Also, reading about Adolin sinking into the ground, becoming evil and/or fading within the background wouldn't be satisfying, not to those readers who have enjoy his character within the next two books. 

Fortunately (or unfortunately if you are Brandon), it appears there are quite a lot of readers who have latched onto Adolin.

[king of nowhere]

on a side note regarding adolin's ranking in the importance of characters, brandon stated that he wanted to avoid getting tnagled in as many subplots as the wheel of time, but it is inevitable that the story will spread wider. Instead of a dozen main characters in a dozen different places doing different things, we may have four or five main plots; in which case adolin may get some prominence in one of those arcs, which would not be "giiving him his own arc".

Exile is also possible as he may end up recruited by one of the many societies we see around - from the ghostbloods to the skybreaker, there are plenty of ways for him to be exiled from alethkar proper and remain into the scene without getting the spotlight. he may have a nervous breakdown, which may allow him to develop a nahel bond - possibly with his sword, possibly with some other spren. he may die in a significant way.

If I were to guess, I'd say he'll remain a secondary character in Dalinar's group, and what he did will not have many lasting consequences on him but it would rather have consequences into the bigger politics.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

on a side note regarding adolin's ranking in the importance of characters, brandon stated that he wanted to avoid getting tnagled in as many subplots as the wheel of time, but it is inevitable that the story will spread wider. Instead of a dozen main characters in a dozen different places doing different things, we may have four or five main plots; in which case adolin may get some prominence in one of those arcs, which would not be "giiving him his own arc".

What bothers me is while Brandon did say he wanted to avoid his story to be diluted into too many viewpoints and while I do respect his desire to keep the story focused, I am forced to admit the book 3 planning is opening the door for several additional viewpoints characters: Moash, a new interlude character, Lift, Jasnah (of course I do know Lift and Jasnah are major character in the becoming, but their time hasn't arrived just yet), Rock, several bridgemen... He even mentioned how Part 2 read as one long interlude as it focused on unusual characters. He even said it contained quite a great deal of "fluff", not really relevant to the main narrative.

Hence, as a reader, I do have to wonder: why do all of those "unimportant" characters get to have their own boosted story arcs while Adolin, considered by many to be almost as important as the core three, appears to not be getting not much? I mean, I like fluff, in a general manner, but I hate to think the fluff is the reason Adolin's page time was cut down. 

I'll admit it is very frustrating for me and while I am working very hard on accepting such is Brandon's decision, it remains incredibly difficult for me to comprehend. 

55 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Exile is also possible as he may end up recruited by one of the many societies we see around - from the ghostbloods to the skybreaker, there are plenty of ways for him to be exiled from alethkar proper and remain into the scene without getting the spotlight. he may have a nervous breakdown, which may allow him to develop a nahel bond - possibly with his sword, possibly with some other spren. he may die in a significant way.

Everything is possible, but I feel exile is less likely. As I said, sending Adolin away into a secret society (or anywhere else) is basically the equivalent of removing him from the main narrative. While it is entirely possible Brandon is looking for a way to get rid of Adolin from the story, without killing him, I fear it wouldn't turn out into a very satisfying story arc for many readers. There is also the fact I can't quite frankly cannot picture Adolin becoming disillusioned enough to tie his knot with a secret society trying to undermine his family. 

Obviously, he may have a nervous break-down and a great deal lot of other things. He may also die... It remains a very strong possibility, as much as I hate it: if Adolin isn't getting a focus arc and/or additional viewpoints, then keeping him as an under-developed popular character may hurt SA more than it would help it, in the long run. Hence, it might be best if Brandon just kills him off. It doesn't do any story good to have a secondary character grow too popular.

55 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

If I were to guess, I'd say he'll remain a secondary character in Dalinar's group, and what he did will not have many lasting consequences on him but it would rather have consequences into the bigger politics.

I am out of guesses. I'd say you are probably right. He will keep on being around, but nothing major will happen to him. When Brandon said it was unexpected, he might just be referring to him not dying ad/or becoming king which I have always rated as one dull story arc, but YMMV.

Edited March 13, 2017 by maxal

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

 There is also the fact I can't quite frankly cannot picture Adolin becoming disillusioned enough to tie his knot with a secret society trying to undermine his family.

right, so the diagramists are out of the question, and so are the sons of honor. the ghostbloods, we still have no idea what they are up to, but it can't be too bad, if mraize has recruited shallan - it would be hilarious if they were to meet at a ghostblood meeting. but after events of edgedancer, I was thinking specifically of the skybreakers. adolin getting exiled and being recruited in the (new) skybreakers could work well in the plot. it would remove adolin from the urithiru scene, and put him with szeth and lift, so he would not disappear, he'd keep being a supporting character into someone else's main arc. whatever nale will decide to do after edgedancer is probably going to involve stopping the desolation, so adolin would gladly join the cause. it would basically serve to move him from one group to another, and tie together two story lines that are so far separated. yes, it's a distant possibility, but if brandon has reasons to move adolin in another place, that would be just the way to justify it.

anyway, I am really hoping now for some kind of scene where adolin confess to protect someone wrongly accused.

"this court rules mr. Nobody guilty of the murder of highprince Sadeas based on evidence that could pass mild scrutiny but is just based on some unlucky coincidences. mr. nobody is to be executed immediately"

"No! Release him, he's innocent. I am the one who killed Sadeas"

"Adolin, no! Don't do it!"

"I must, father. I will take responsibility for my own actions"

"[your words are accepted]"

Edited March 14, 2017 by king of nowhere

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

right, so the diagramists are out of the question, and so are the sons of honor. the ghostbloods, we still have no idea what they are up to, but it can't be too bad, if mraize has recruited shallan - it would be hilarious if they were to meet at a ghostblood meeting. but after events of edgedancer, I was thinking specifically of the skybreakers. adolin getting exiled and being recruited in the (new) skybreakers could work well in the plot. it would remove adolin from the urithiru scene, and put him with szeth and lift, so he would not disappear, he'd keep being a supporting character into someone else's main arc. whatever nale will decide to do after edgedancer is probably going to involve stopping the desolation, so adolin would gladly join the cause. it would basically serve to move him from one group to another, and tie together two story lines that are so far separated. yes, it's a distant possibility, but if brandon has reasons to move adolin in another place, that would be just the way to justify it.

anyway, I am really hoping now for some kind of scene where adolin confess to protect someone wrongly accused.

"this court rules mr. Nobody guilty of the murder of highprince Sadeas based on evidence that could pass mild scrutiny but is just based on some unlucky coincidences. mr. nobody is to be executed immediately"

"No! Release him, he's innocent. I am the one who killed Sadeas"

"Adolin, no! Don't do it!"

"I must, father. I will take responsibility for my own actions"

"[your words are accepted]"

The Sons of Honors plotted to cause a Desolation hoping the conflict would force the Herald to walk out of the shadow. I cannot see Adolin ever agreeing with any endeavor striking to cause such a devastating event. Adolin might not wish for his father to leave the Shattered Plains, but this is more out of desire to maintain the Alethi way than out of love of warfare. Besides, a Desolation would attack his people, slaughter his people, civilians, innocents: no way Adolin would ever endorse the Sons of Honor. Also, the secrecy, the mysteries, really, this isn't him.

We have no idea what the Ghostbloods are actually after, but they killed Jasnah or they tried to. Adolin is very... territorial and family oriented. The attacked his cousin, they are out. It would take one impressive plot twist for it to happen. I do agree it isn't impossible, but something will need to happen and the Ghostbloods will have to prove themselves as an order willing to act in the greater good of the people, not some deity and/or their personal interest.

The Skybreakers are out of the way: he broke the law, they would never want him nor do I think he'd want to hang with them. Adolin is emphatic, not lawful. He would never agree to twist the law in order to punish poor people forced to commit crimes due their lack of opportunities in life. For instances, I suspect the Sadeas's soldier who molested the prostitute wasn't breaking any law, but Adolin wouldn't have any of it. The core of his character is about obeying the law of the heart, not the written one.

I don't know what Brandon has in store, but I currently see each one of those possibilities as distant. Adolin's character motivators just aren't about finding a group to belong to and/or looking for someone to obey to: I would rate Renarin's chances of joining a secret society as much, much higher.

For the rest, I also do not believe one second Adolin would allow anyone to take the blame for him nor do I think it will escalate up until someone is actually accused. I personally feel Adolin will confess very early on in Oathbringer: this plot line won't dwindle for too long. I also do not think Adolin will pseudo-say an oath in such a manner... If Adolin says oaths, to his Blade, they will be very personal. We wouldn't really be aware they are oaths because his Blade is dead, but he will say them. The revival however won't happen until the "something more" happens which I have no idea what it might be. This is how I would see it playing, very low key, very private, very naturally. Perhaps the Blade starts to behave abnormally and Adolin will certainly cling unnaturally to it or maybe he loses it and develops some sort of obsession over gaining it back. In my head, Adolin trying to unbound his Blade would be... a sad moment.

[Guest]

On 10.3.2017 at 2:24 AM, maxal said:

How will Adolin react? Several people have emitted the hypothesis Adolin would own the murder, would justify his actions rationally, but I fear those conclusions are in direct contradiction with how the scene player out. In other words, had Adolin purposefully decided Sadeas needed to die, had he come to the rational conclusion it was the only possible solution, then yes, perhaps he would own it. Except he didn't. He didn't think rationally, he didn't kill Sadeas out of need: he killed him out of rage. He lost it. He allowed his emotions to get the better of him: he absolutely didn't think it through so no way will he come forth and own it. He made a mistake and he knows it. Adolin is an emotional firecracker, so no matter how he reacts, we can be sure it will first be emotive before it becomes more rational. 

My thoughts are Adolin will react badly. He has broken his father's codes and no matter how much bravado he is putting on, he just isn't ready to confront his father over such issues. I honestly do not see him "owning it" or "being proud of it" or "thinking he did right", not when the scene highlighted how out of control he was, not when his first reaction, after coming out of his daze is to be both terrified and shocked.

My thoughts exactly. And I also don't believe Dalinar will take the fall for it. He's a bondsmith now. He has his own oaths now. He has to unite and his own son creates discord between the highprinces of Alethkar, by murdering Sadeas? No, I think he will severly reprimand Adolin. I don't know how Adolin will take it. I guess he will break, because despite his facade of confidence and charisma, he actually has a lot of self-doubt (doesn't think he is a better man than Dalinar, eventhough Dalinar always tells him that; can't keep women). The murder will take a large toll on him. How large? Depends on how his peers react. (minus Kaladin, but I don't how close he is to becoming a peer of Adolin.)

Edited March 14, 2017 by SLNC

[Guest]

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

My thoughts exactly. And I also don't believe Dalinar will take the fall for it. He's a bondsmith now. He has his own oaths now. He has to unite and his own son creates discord between the highprinces of Alethkar, by murdering Sadeas? No, I think he will severly reprimand Adolin. I don't know how Adolin will take it. I guess he will break, because despite his facade of confidence and charisma, he actually has a lot of self-doubt (doesn't think he is a better man than Dalinar, eventhough Dalinar always tells him that; can't keep women). The murder will take a large toll on him. How large? Depends on how his peers react. (minus Kaladin, but I don't how close he is to becoming a peer of Adolin.)

I agree with you though I might have additional thoughts. Try as hard I want, I find it very difficult to anticipate how every character might react to Adolin's actions. I have always taken for granted Dalinar would react... badly. How badly? This is hard to evaluate, but I somehow doubt he is going to clap in hands in happiness nor that he'll nod down appreciatively. Adolin lost control o himself, he allowed his emotions to get the better of him which is precisely what Dalinar tried to beat out of him, this is exactly why Dalinar has insisted Adolin worked on taming the Thrill: he refused to have his own son become another Blackthorn. Hence, seeing his son take actions his former self would have done without thinking twice about it is going to steer emotions into Dalinar. It will bring back old, perhaps bad, memories and the fact it happens right after he finally acknowledged Adolin as a grown-up man to be proud of will hurt even more.

Dalinar it seems has always seen the worst out of his heir, but the best out of others. He had somehow always took for granted Adolin would walk into his former shoes, if allowed to roam free. He has given rules over rules, insisting on managing every single aspect of his life and what freedom he got was freedom Dalinar approved of. Thus, even if Adolin never had the right temperament to grow into a blood-thirsty warrior, even if Dalinar is capable to note the fact his son doesn't like the warfare, he is still incredibly likely to see Adolin's fall as a fault of his own. He failed. He failed to raise his son to be a better man then he was. The fact he is asking his son to be a better man than himself, while knowing full well Adolin idolizes and worships him, might be putting quite a bit of useless unproductive pressure on him might completely escape Dalinar.

As for Adolin, I do think you are right. Yes, he presents himself as an over-confident, cocky and charismatic man, but deep inside, he keep on doubting himself. He doubts he can win all the required duels, he doubts he ever meet up to Dalinar's standards, he doubts he is good enough for the women he doubt, it other words, he lacks self-confidence. Yes, he is talented, but being talented doesn't mean being confident: in fact a lot of very talented people persistently doubts themselves, fearing they might not succeed. So why is it? Is it because he is afraid of failure? Is it because he is afraid he's disappoint his father? Is it because he feels he needs to be perfect in front of authoritative father? Is it because Renarin got most of the attention while they were growing up which led Adolin feeling he wasn't good enough for his parent's love? I do not know, but I bet whatever happens to him will make those feeling emerged. 

My thought? I think Adolin is going to break down every single one of his father's rules. He will have to undo everything his father enforced on him in order to find out who he truly is.

[king of nowhere]

You know, I would never call adolin insecure. This is something I relate with, as I am like him in that way - highly talented in some areas, with more or less his same amount of self-doubt - and I don't consider myself insecure. The thing is, adolin is very skilled, but a lot is asked to him. He is the best duelist, and he knows it, but being the best does not assure you to win every single time, especially against two opponents; there are certainly enough examples of underdogs winning. adolin is a good men, and he knows it, but he is also aware that under stress he may lose control - which turns out to be totally true. He is afraid that he's not up to his father standards, and considering how high are those standards dalinar set for him, I'd say this is also true. Adolin's self-assessment is nothing but accurate, in fact. He knows pretty well how good he is, and he knows his limits. skilled people are often like that - they would not become skilled without setting high standards for themselves, but those high standards carry with them a high chance of failure. today boastfulness seem to be favored in most of society, and so one who is actually accurate in his assessment of his capabilities seem insecure.

Adolin is a capable, balanced individual, and it's not his fault the universe is continually conspiring to put him into situations that will shake him.

As for his many pre-shallan girls, I got the impression that he himself wasn't all that interested in them. As the most eligible bachelor in alethkar, he was presented an endless string of potential romantic interests, and I can easily see how that would cause him to not be particularly involved from the beginning. Especially after a while, when things start to become routine.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

You know, I would never call adolin insecure. This is something I relate with, as I am like him in that way - highly talented in some areas, with more or less his same amount of self-doubt - and I don't consider myself insecure. The thing is, adolin is very skilled, but a lot is asked to him. He is the best duelist, and he knows it, but being the best does not assure you to win every single time, especially against two opponents; there are certainly enough examples of underdogs winning. adolin is a good men, and he knows it, but he is also aware that under stress he may lose control - which turns out to be totally true. He is afraid that he's not up to his father standards, and considering how high are those standards dalinar set for him, I'd say this is also true. Adolin's self-assessment is nothing but accurate, in fact. He knows pretty well how good he is, and he knows his limits. skilled people are often like that - they would not become skilled without setting high standards for themselves, but those high standards carry with them a high chance of failure. today boastfulness seem to be favored in most of society, and so one who is actually accurate in his assessment of his capabilities seem insecure.

Adolin is a capable, balanced individual, and it's not his fault the universe is continually conspiring to put him into situations that will shake him.

As for his many pre-shallan girls, I got the impression that he himself wasn't all that interested in them. As the most eligible bachelor in alethkar, he was presented an endless string of potential romantic interests, and I can easily see how that would cause him to not be particularly involved from the beginning. Especially after a while, when things start to become routine.

I agree insecure might be an ill-chosen term. Allow me however to offer a slightly different, yet very similar perspective.. as I too am very similar to Adolin. I too am very skilled in some areas and I too have put a lot of pressure onto myself to succeed within those same areas and yet... I keep fearing I wouldn't. I keep fearing today would be the "off-day". And on the day I did have an "off-day", I feared it would repeat itself so badly I developed insomnia which plagued me for years before I finally managed to put those foolishness behind me. How old was I? Well.. I was exactly Adolin's age... so yeah sounding and appearing "balanced" and "capable" bear no guarantee: often those people just haven't met their own wall. We all have one, we all struggle with something: Adolin is not perfect nor is he a shinning unicorn living in happy land. He has issues, but we tend to overlook them because they sound so insignificant in front of Kaladin's issues. The thing is... I grew up exactly the same way... with a sibling harvesting more of the attention, with being considered the "healthy" one as whatever issues I might have just couldn't compare, but they were real.... 

All of this, I found it very similar to Adolin who does worry, despite being very well-aware of his own skill level, he might just not win because truth is nobody can win them all. Sooner or later, he will drop one. So no, it may not be insecurity, but it is something. I called it lack of self-confidence, but it too may not be accurate. In my case, it was a fear to not meet up to my own standard which would compromised my perception of myself, making me a less worthy human being: I see some of this in Adolin. Who is he if he can't be Dalinar's perfect boy and Alethkar most talented duelist? An individual's identity should be stronger than his/her accomplishments: it is a mistake I made during my younger years, thinking my self-worth was tied to my successes.

Dalinar has put impossible pressure on Adolin: he has given him incredibly high standards to meet and the option to fail has never been truly made available. I have often said there was an unhealthy element within the Dalinar/Adolin relationship as the father has to support his child within successes and within failures, except Dalinar never allowed Adolin the chance to... not meet up. How differently he behaves with both Renarin and Elhokar is quite telling... He doesn't put any pressure on Renarin (and Elhokar), he loves him unconditionally, independently of his accomplishment which is a treatment Adolin doesn't get.

So maybe it isn't insecurity, but it does bite at him towards the end of WoR. With Radiants returning, he has already started to feel left out: his structure was shaken. Who was he?

Thus, capable, balanced individuals can still struggle in life: everyone struggles with something and Adolin has a few issues on his own which aren't relate to the changing world. Brandon has told us Adolin was unconsciously sabotaging his relationships because he was afraid he wouldn't be "good enough": so while there might be an element of him not really wanting to tie the knot just yet, there is also an element of "insecurity" and/or "doubt". If you ask for my personal thought, I would say Adolin is afraid of intimacy. He is afraid to remove his armor, to let himself go bare, to have people see the real him, to appear vulnerable and because he fears it, he can't develop meaningful relationship with his peers. Brandon has also told us it was something to say about his character and I will argue "perfectly balanced individuals" do not have such issues. Brandon also told us how Adolin used to be jealous of Renarin, when they grew up, because Renarin had the most attention. This too works with keeping on thinking he might "not be enough", he might "fail" or worst that "his father's love was tied to him being perfect as just him is not enough".

There is something and while it may not be the "broken soul kinda of thing", it is a dangerous mix which could explode and is likely to. 

[king of nowhere]

I'm not saying adolin has no isssues whatsoever. Any balanced and functional person, if you scratch deep enough, has some kind of vulnerability, and everyone will eventually break if pushed in the wrong ways and strong enough. I maintain that adolin really is pretty strong; he is however being pushed hard in the wrong places, and he may collapse as a result.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I'm not saying adolin has no isssues whatsoever. Any balanced and functional person, if you scratch deep enough, has some kind of vulnerability, and everyone will eventually break if pushed in the wrong ways and strong enough. I maintain that adolin really is pretty strong; he is however being pushed hard in the wrong places, and he may collapse as a result.

I do not know about "strong" as I find the term slightly confusing and potentially meaningless. What is strong? Define strong? For instances, a lot of readers consider Renarin to be a very mentally strong individual for having withstand his screaming Shardblade during the 4 on 1 duel and yet he wasn't mentally strong enough to speak up when required, he also wasn't mentally strong enough to carve himself a place within society despite his handicap. So yes, while Adolin is strong enough to have grown into a household which apparently left him wanting in terms of attention/love (which isn't to say he didn't get it, I merely meant he felt Renarin got more of it which is very consistent with the written text, also this isn't just me speaking, but Brandon as he did plant the idea via WoB: I was firmly sitting within the "Adolin would never feel jealousy" bandwagon right before I got my hand on this one), to have lost a parent at a young age, to have watch his father descend into what he felt was madness while being a teenager, to have been put unattainable expectations over his young head by none other than his hero, a man he feels he will never be the equal of (the fact Adolin worships Dalinar is very important here, nobody feels they will ever live up to be "as good" as their heroes and sadly for Adolin, his "hero" is the one pressuring him), he wasn't strong enough to control himself. He wasn't strong enough to not kill Sadeas, to go and look for another alternative (as surely there was one). He also wasn't strong enough to take the news his fiance now is Radiant as meaningless.

Thus, while Adolin is strong enough to endure being shoved around, pushed, disliked, constantly diminished, ignored, potentially unloved or not loved "as much as", rejected, beaten even (I mean the 4 on 1 duel here, nothing else), but he isn't strong enough to face a world which endangers the ones he love, nor is he strong enough to face a world where his sense of worth is jeopardized. In other words, as long as Adolin feels he has control, he is useful to his family, he can help even if only is small ways, he'll withstand a lot. Remove one item though and I think he'll collapse faster than you can blink.

So yeah, I agree he is being pushed into the wrong places, but I would debate the "strong" part as everyone is "strong" for a few givens things, but "weak" for others  It also invites to comparison: whom is stronger than whom? Is Adolin stronger than Renarin for being "balanced" or is it Renarin whom is stronger just for being born with a handicap? Does unplanned hardships automatically make you stronger than the one having have none he couldn't deal with? It is highly subjective.

[king of nowhere]

i think we are saying the same things, just from slightly different perspectives

[Guest]

Just now, king of nowhere said:

i think we are saying the same things, just from slightly different perspectives

I think we are. It crossed my mind after I pressed send this afternoon... I have just re-shuffled your own thoughts with slightly more words just because, huh, why not?  

I also feel there is much to say about reader's perspective of any given character "strength".

[DSC01 he/him]

Backtracking a little bit, I think that the exile idea would actually have the possibility of working very well. As has been pointed out, Brandon never had big plans for Adolin, but he has unexpectedly become an important character. The dilemma there is that if he pushes Adolin aside because he needs to keep the greater story on-track, the risk is that his arc will not be done proper justice. At this point, even if Brandon doesn't particularly like Adolin or want to make him at all important to the plot, he is important, and he can't just be killed off or otherwise pushed aside in an unsatisfying way.

So, if his arc is getting in the way of the story moving forward (not that it necessarily is), having him exiled and relegated to an interlude character for two volumes would be a good way to complete the first 5 according to plan but keep him around to bring back and give a satisfying arc to. In fact, he could do wandering hedge knight-style adventures with Lift, and while @maxal would probably hate that more than anything that has ever happened in the history of the universe, I bet that would be immensely popular with a lot of readers. It would also help accomplish things that will need to happen--namely, Adolin going on a journey of redemption and Lift growing up and becoming a full-fledged, responsible knight.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, DSC01 said:

Backtracking a little bit, I think that the exile idea would actually have the possibility of working very well. As has been pointed out, Brandon never had big plans for Adolin, but he has unexpectedly become an important character. The dilemma there is that if he pushes Adolin aside because he needs to keep the greater story on-track, the risk is that his arc will not be done proper justice. At this point, even if Brandon doesn't particularly like Adolin or want to make him at all important to the plot, he is important, and he can't just be killed off or otherwise pushed aside in an unsatisfying way.

As you are well aware of, the fact Brandon might push Adolin to the side has been my greatest source of concern for Oathbringer. Since he saw fit to reduce his story arc which directly goes against several readers expectations make me bode for the worst. Unfortunately, nothing save of Brandon Sanderson and/or Peter Ahlstrom jumping in and confirming the future of Stormlight Archive will contain ample Adolin to satisfy his numerous fans will quell this worry I have the author will just toss the character away as if he were a dirty rag.

As I often say, Adolin appears to be one of those cases where a given character becomes more important to the readers then the author intended him to be. Since Brandon hasn't given much in terms of positive news when it comes to Adolin's future within the series, I am consistently forced to compose with this reality as I do think it severely limits the potential story arcs.

6 hours ago, DSC01 said:

So, if his arc is getting in the way of the story moving forward (not that it necessarily is), having him exiled and relegated to an interlude character for two volumes would be a good way to complete the first 5 according to plan but keep him around to bring back and give a satisfying arc to. In fact, he could do wandering hedge knight-style adventures with Lift, and while @maxal would probably hate that more than anything that has ever happened in the history of the universe, I bet that would be immensely popular with a lot of readers. It would also help accomplish things that will need to happen--namely, Adolin going on a journey of redemption and Lift growing up and becoming a full-fledged, responsible knight.

It isn't I hate this idea (and there are certainly things I hate more within this universe than Adolin's potential story arc ), it is I find it offers no resolution nor growth. In other words, characters are interesting to read when they grow, when they evolve. The most standard narrative arc, for any given, characters calls for this character to have a starting point (stability), then a changing factor (the trigger), the denouement (the character trying to solve the problem) and the resolution. For instance, a character such as Kaladin goes through several starting point/trigger/denouement/resolution within both books even though it is sometimes inverted (the flashbacks). Adolin's character does have a starting point and a trigger (murdering Sadeas), but we have yet to read the denouement and the resolution. 

Thus, I feel sending Adolin into exile and have him work as an hedge knight with Lift serves no purpose. Where is the resolution? Where is the growth? Where is the denouement? Roaming across Roshar killing foes as they pop out just simply isn't either of those things. For one, becoming an hedge knight completely ignores an entire side of Adolin's personality, the side which doesn't want to be a soldier, the side which only does it because he has to. Seeing him embrace a career which completely forsake the one personality element which differentiates Adolin from Dalinar: one was a blood-thirsty born soldier while the other is a skilled duelist. For two, Adolin's adventures with Lift as an interlude character wouldn't offer any resolution nor much growth. Adolin's conflicts are with his family members, his entourage: they aren't so much internal, but external. Sending him away to do as he pleases thus isn't a step towards solving it: exile deprives Adolin's character of ever having resolution unless he comes back, but then again, the return of the prodigy son has to have a significance. It can't just happen because readers like Adolin and this is the only way the author will allow to compromise his story to satisfy them. I'd rather have no Adolin at all than an half-chewed an service story arc serving no added purpose within the narrative.

In other words, there has to be a valid reason why we read Adolin and this reason can't just be: "Oh let's have Adolin travel around the land and slay some foes while the important character help the main narrative move forward.". It has to be a story arc completed with all of the required elements and, more importantly, it has to offer a resolution on his character, whatever it might be.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Responding to a point briefly mentioned earlier on the thread. Moash is getting a pov? Ick. My idea of morality is often very flexible in books. Jasnah kills the thiefs: good, they were killing passerby, Szeth slaughtering across the kingdoms: well he thought he didn't have a choice. Moash...did the worst thing in my book that you can do, betrayed a friend, in my opinion after that all you deserve is to fall off your horse and break your neck while no-one is looking.

On to the topic at hand, Adolin is one of the characters that I am also most interested for in oathbringer, (the other is Szeth) and I think part of the reason for both is the same, that we readers have absolutely no clue how those characters will evolve or how or where they will go. This uncertainty is specially true for Adolin, as he is not a flashback character, as such I expect the theorizing to continue until oahtbringer's release  (My interest in Adolin is also why I have been following maxal's posts really closely, and I will also be heartbroken if he is not explored in more detail). I'm sure this has been said already at some point, but an in between point between semi exile and still keeping him in the loop would be to send him back to Kholinar. As we saw after the 4 on 1 duel, some of the nobles he defeated were sent back to Alethkar "in disgrace". This might both give him some thinking time, and still allow us Adolin fans to see him through the eyes of others, as there is a decent chance main characters will be in Kholinar at some point of oathbringer. And as we might gather from the book cover it would also give him a chance to continue using the skills he already has, and learn who he is as a person without the insane weight of responsability that has been placed on him his whole life. A possible hope to cling to, is that Adolin did not have that many point of view chapters in previous books, but he was still a very integral part of it. He is just such a vivid character that you don't need to see from his eyes for him to shine (of course, seeing him from the eyes of others is always second best, but better than nothing ^^). 

That been said...Brandon has never yet fully dissapointed me, and killing or getting read of adolin would most certainly make it the first time, as such, for now I will cling to my faith that all will work out. 

[vikorr]

Has anyone considered that there are no witnesses to Adolin's murder of Sadeas, but that the consequences may still be dire anyway? A High Prince of Alethkar has been murdered ... not in battle, not in a political manouver, not in a duel, not over honour, but outright murdered!

If you wanted to make the consequences of the murder interesting, you wouldn't have a murder trial at the start of a desolation...you'd have consequences that Adolin would have to deal with from a moral perspective:

- Ialai laying the blame at Shallan's feet, and trying to kill her...

- Ialai blames Dalinar, and so has Navani killed... 

- an almost Civil War in Uruthiru because of Sadeas death, with Dalinar trying to stop it...

etc

So if it's Ialai, does Adolin now have to tell someone the truth? Does he have to kill Ialai too? Does he feel responsibility for the fallout? Does he try to fix it and make it worse?

Edited March 18, 2017 by vikorr

[Guest]

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Responding to a point briefly mentioned earlier on the thread. Moash is getting a pov? Ick. My idea of morality is often very flexible in books. Jasnah kills the thiefs: good, they were killing passerby, Szeth slaughtering across the kingdoms: well he thought he didn't have a choice. Moash...did the worst thing in my book that you can do, betrayed a friend, in my opinion after that all you deserve is to fall off your horse and break your neck while no-one is looking.

Yes he is. Brandon confirmed not only Moash has a POV, he has big plans for him which is much more than he ever said for Adolin.

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

On to the topic at hand, Adolin is one of the characters that I am also most interested for in oathbringer, (the other is Szeth) and I think part of the reason for both is the same, that we readers have absolutely no clue how those characters will evolve or how or where they will go. This uncertainty is specially true for Adolin, as he is not a flashback character, as such I expect the theorizing to continue until oahtbringer's release  (My interest in Adolin is also why I have been following maxal's posts really closely, and I will also be heartbroken if he is not explored in more detail). I'm sure this has been said already at some point, but an in between point between semi exile and still keeping him in the loop would be to send him back to Kholinar. As we saw after the 4 on 1 duel, some of the nobles he defeated were sent back to Alethkar "in disgrace". This might both give him some thinking time, and still allow us Adolin fans to see him through the eyes of others, as there is a decent chance main characters will be in Kholinar at some point of oathbringer. And as we might gather from the book cover it would also give him a chance to continue using the skills he already has, and learn who he is as a person without the insane weight of responsability that has been placed on him his whole life. A possible hope to cling to, is that Adolin did not have that many point of view chapters in previous books, but he was still a very integral part of it. He is just such a vivid character that you don't need to see from his eyes for him to shine (of course, seeing him from the eyes of others is always second best, but better than nothing ^^). 

That been said...Brandon has never yet fully dissapointed me, and killing or getting read of adolin would most certainly make it the first time, as such, for now I will cling to my faith that all will work out. 

Following my posts? Courageous fellow  There are... a lot of those 

Sending Adolin back to Kholinar would definitely work and yes, it has crossed my mind it might happen. I doubt it would remove him from the weight of responsibilities he has on his shoulders as Dalinar would probably ask him to deal with the rebellion. Again, Adolin will not be given the opportunity to fail, this would be a last chance kinda of thing: no way he would want to further disappoint his father. I personally feel the only individual which can release the pressure out of Adolin's young shoulders is... Dalinar. I have stated before most of Adolin's conflicts are external, they are with other people, his family mostly, his peers. He doesn't have any mind gaping internal issues, but Dalinar is asking perhaps too much out of him: you can only shove someone so many time across the board, using them to your personal ends before someone starts to rebel. Dalinar is treating his son as a tool and not... a son. I have felt, for the longest time, Adolin's denouement will pass through Dalinar realizing he has to allow his son to be his own person, to cut him some lose. 

For my perspective, Adolin's character arc is... incomplete. I have no idea why Brandon seems so uninterested in writing more of him, but he did give him a "trigger" which means if he doesn't follow-up with satisfying denouement and a good resolution, readers will be disappointed. It won't matter if Kaladin has 10 denouements and 10 resolutions within the same time frame, readers will still think Adolin's development was hasted and incomplete.

Thus, I sincerely hope Brandon has taken this into consideration, I sincerely hope he will give the character enough place to shine, but it bodes badly for Oathbringer... I just wish he would toss around a bone to the numerous readers anticipating Adolin's story arc, something more substantial than "Adolin is so much less interesting than Renarin" and/or "Adolin only has a few viewpoints towards the end of book", something worth waiting the book for, something to anticipate when it comes to Adolin other than an upcoming disappointment.

1 minute ago, vikorr said:

Does he try to fix it and make it worse?

My guess? He makes it worst... much worst.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by maxal