Shardblades, Shardplate, and the Kak Order

[skaa he/him]

So, I've been thinking a lot about the different Surges and Altering Fabrials recently while developing my general theory on fabrials, when I realized something:

Shardplate and Shardblades are deeply connected with the Division Surge. Shardplate is a Division Diminisher, while a Shardblade is a Division Augmenter.

Except they don't strictly require gemstone fabrials.

Sure, Shardplate can be powered by infused gemstones, but those gemstones aren't fabrials, and they won't even be necessary once a Stormlight-wielding Surgebinder wears it.

Similarly, we've recently seen that the gemstones in some Shardblades can be removed without destroying the Blade; they are not necessary. The gems are probably just bonding fabrials added by modern Shardbearers to "improve" their bond with the Shardblade.

Yet, somehow, these magical armor and weapon combo act like fabrials. Sharplate resists being damaged (damage=division) and will eventually reform even when it does get damaged. In the same manner, Shardblade does almost nothing but divide things, even souls, and even itself (whenever it disintegrates into mist upon dismissal).

So, it appears that living beings and fabrial gemstones are not the only things on Roshar that can access Surges. What's so special about the Plate and the Blade that they can do this?

If only we have a clue... like, if there was a Essence that's associated with metallic weapons and armor that might suggest an explanation for it.

Oh wait, we do have one: the Essence of Foil, the Essence of Kalak's Order, the Order that can access the Transportation Surge and an unknown Surge.

 

(They are also connected to the Dustbringers who, interestingly enough, can access the Division Surge, but that's just an aside.)

I highlighted the Transportation Surge because I believe it is central to learning about why some Foil-based objects can access Surges. I theorize that just as gemstones are used to store Stormlight and add Intent to it, metals can be used to transport this Intent-laden Stormlight. Metals are Stormlight conduits and transmitters.

This is why all fabrials we've seen so far are attached to jewelry or machines that are metallic. It's not just to make them look cool or pretty. Those fabrials simply won't work without metal.

And this is why Shardplate and Shardblade can use the Division Surge. I believe that the members of the Kak Order were capable of molding Stormlight into complex "Surge spells" (possibly using their unknown Surge) that they could then program directly into metallic objects (using the Transportation Surge) without the need for gemstones.

So, they simply infused each Plate and Blade with Stormlight with "Surge spells" that target the Division Surge. Perhaps they had help from Dustbringers (who can, I believe, share their Stormlight with other people) for that task.

That's my theory! Now, two questions:

• Wouldn't you bet that the Oathgates were made of metal?
• What would you think if the spell-making-related Surge required the Surgebinder to say their spells out loud (similar to Awakening), or perhaps required to draw markings on the metal using Stormlight-filled fingernails (similar to AonDor)?

Edit: Reworded some things for clarity.

Edited February 5, 2014 by skaa

[el_warko he/him]

Interesting.  Might also link through to the Shin wanting soul cast metal.  I know they have a thing about destroying rocks, ore beneficiation  / smelting destroy most things, but what if by the very act of soul casting metal invested it to a degree as well?

 

To answer your questions:

 

1) By your argument, it follows that this would be the case.

 

2) Prefer the idea of runes to incantations.

[Elementalist he/him]

I don't see why runes or incantations are necessary. However, I love all the other aspects of this theory. It provides an excellent idea for what the Unknown Surge does.

Maybe Navani will turn out to have the powers of this order. If anyone figures out how to make Plate and Blade in this series, it will be her.

[hoser he/him]

Very interesting! I love the idea about Division diminishment and augmentation.  Upvote!

 

There are some details that do not seem essential to the theory that are new to me.  I would love to know whether they are just theories or whether they are supported in the text or by some WoB.

I extracted the relevant sections below. 

So, ...

Except they don't strictly require gemstones. They don't even require Surgebinding users.

Sure, Shardplate can be powered by gemstones, but we know that that was just a recent alteration by modern Shardbearers.

Similarly, we've recently seen that the gemstones in some Shardblades can be removed without destroying the Blade; they are not necessary. The gems are probably just fabrials added by modern Shardbearers to "improve" their bond with the Shardblade.
...
That's my theory! Now, two questions:

• Wouldn't you bet that the Oathgates were made of metal?

...

Where is there support for the idea that Shardblades and Shardplate don't need gems to function properly? 

 

I personally believe that the gems are essential.  We know that the metal is heavily invested via WoB, but I think the gems interact w/the invested metal.  For example, I don't believe that one can summon and unsummon a Shardblade that has no gem attached. 

 

I will bet that when we find an Oathgate, it will have integrated gems. 

[Moogle]

Two things:

 

1. Metal as a conduit for Stormlight is an awesome idea that I can't believe I didn't think of. Every old-style fabrial has been made of metal, and both Shardblades and Shardplate are as well. It fits perfectly. It explains why gems can be replaced on a Soulcaster when we know that new-style fabrials use spren-gems. Many upvotes for you! Minor quibble, though: Breath doesn't stick to metal very well. That's probably just because metal was never alive, though, and is a quirk of Breath, not Investiture in general.

 

2. I doubt Shardplate decreases Division. We know that Investiture interferes with other Investiture, and that Shardplate/Shardblades are Invested objects. That's really all I expect there to be to it.

[skaa he/him]

1. Metal as a conduit for Stormlight is an awesome idea that I can't believe I didn't think of. Every old-style fabrial has been made of metal, and both Shardblades and Shardplate are as well. It fits perfectly. It explains why gems can be replaced on a Soulcaster when we know that new-style fabrials use spren-gems. Many upvotes for you! Minor quibble, though: Breath doesn't stick to metal very well. That's probably just because metal was never alive, though, and is a quirk of Breath, not Investiture in general.

 

Thanks! Yeah, the speculation about how the theoretical "spell-casting" of the Kak Order could be similar to spell-casting Investiture on other Shardworlds was just for fun. It was a whimsical thought that I just wanted to add at the end.

 

 

2. I doubt Shardplate decreases Division. We know that Investiture interferes with other Investiture, and that Shardplate/Shardblades are Invested objects. That's really all I expect there to be to it.

 

But how about the fact that it fixes itself after a while? It can't be Re-Growth since that only applies to organic things. All I can think of is that it's another form of Division-diminishing.

[Moogle]

It can't be Re-Growth since that only applies to organic things. All I can think of is that it's another form of Division-diminishing.

 

Three thoughts:

 

1. Regrowth with an amethyst to target Foil (metal).

2. Soulcasting air to metal and using gemstones to re-Invest the metal.

3. Transportation of the broken parts of the Shardplate back into the right place, possibly sticking them together with Pressure.

 

Division-diminishing is not something I feel comfortable with. The Skybreakers were not known as the Skymenders for a reason. I guessssss it might be possible, but I think new material appearing and the old material turning to dust suggests Soulcasting.

[skaa he/him]

Three thoughts:

 

1. Regrowth with an amethyst to target Foil (metal).

2. Soulcasting air to metal and using gemstones to re-Invest the metal.

3. Transportation of the broken parts of the Shardplate back into the right place, possibly sticking them together with Pressure.

 

Division-diminishing is not something I feel comfortable with. The Skybreakers were not known as the Skymenders for a reason. I guessssss it might be possible, but I think new material appearing and the old material turning to dust suggests Soulcasting.

 

1. I think Regrowth only targets Body Focuses, so an amethyst focus gemstone would produce the oh-so-useful power of healing damaged nails.
2. Some Shardblades have gemstones stuck on them. You can't Soulcast things into any of the ten Surgebinding gemstones (Polestones, I think they were called?). It's clearly not Soulcasting.
3. Perhaps, but it sounds much clunkier than my solution.

I'm still not sure why you don't like Division-dimishing. If a Gravity Surgebinder can decrease and increase Gravity, why can't Division Surgebinders decrease Division as well as increase it?

Edited January 30, 2014 by skaa

[Moogle]

 

1. I think Regrowth only targets Body Focuses, so an amethyst focus gemstone would produce the oh-so-useful power of healing damaged nails.
2. Some Shardblades have gemstones stuck on them. You can't Soulcast things into any of the ten Surgebinding gemstones (Polestones, I think they were called?). It's clearly not Soulcasting.
3. Perhaps, but it sounds much clunkier than my solution.

 

1. Yeah, probably.

2. I'm not suggesting you Soulcast gems, I'm suggesting you Soulcast metal to fill the gaps in the Shardplate, and then use gemstones touching the Shardplate to Invest this newly created metal to grant it the regular anti-Shardblade properties. The metal created could include sockets for gems, but no actual gems. Regular Shardplate doesn't produce gems.

3. Your solution is not clunky only because it's so vague and unexplained. We haven't even seen Division! All we know is that it can break rocks with a touch (probably).

 

 

I'm still not sure why you don't like Division-dimishing. If a Gravity Surgebinder can decrease and increase Gravity, why can't Division Surgebinders decrease Division as well as increase it?

 

Gravity Surgebinders don't decrease gravity! When Szeth half-Lashes himself, he's adding a force of Gravity on himself upwards to counteract the force pulling him down. The two forces cancel, so it seems like he's reducing Gravity. (Note: this may be completely wrong given gravity works on different principles in the Cosmere. Maybe.)

 

Similarly, I do not anticipate Growth Surgebinders to be capable of un-growing things. Otherwise Lift would be able to kill people with a touch. While cool, I don't see that happening.

 

I do anticipate Voidbinders being able to counteract the ten Surges, though. Whatever of the Ten Deaths/Ten Fools has Growth as a Void-Surge, I anticipate their touch making people rot/ungrow. Pressure Voidbinding could create implosions, that sort of thing. Not sure on how Gravity would work with them.

[KiManiak he/him]

Interesting theory. 

 

There is still a strong debate that Kalak’s Order/Order 8 are the Bondsmiths, and I do lean favorably towards the Bondsmiths creating/building/developing items that utilize the Surges (it makes sense that they would build/adapt items as “Smith” implies that action). 

 

I could see Bondsmiths being involved in the creation and/or modification of Shardplate, Blade and Fabrials. So if Order 8 is indeed the Bondsmiths, I think your theory may have even more potential support.

 

I especially like the part of the theory that deals with the Division surge.   There’s been limited speculation about the connection between Orders that are on opposite sides of the chart, so I’m intrigued by any speculation that tries to explore those connections, however loosely.

 

I'd be interested to see if part/all of this hold up after Words of Radiance.  Upvote to you!

[vikorr]

While I like the idea that metal allows investiture, and even that shardplate utilises the Division surge - I can’t agree with other assertions and conclusions in the OP.

 

Sure, Shardplate can be powered by gemstones, but we know that that was just a recent alteration by modern Shardbearers.

 

Could you please provide the quote? As far as I know, this isn’t the case.

 

And why then are they necessary to powering and regrowing shardplate?

Similarly, we've recently seen that the gemstones in some Shardblades can be removed without destroying the Blade; they are not necessary. The gems are probably just fabrials added by modern Shardbearers to "improve" their bond with the Shardblade.

 

This isn’t true either – they are necessary to the bond:

 

"Salinor hesitated, then touched the ruby at the weapon’s pommel. The gemstone flashed with light. The bond had been broken.

 

Adolin stood, ripping the ruby free, then crushing it in a gauntleted hand. That wouldn’t be needed, but it was a nice symbol."

 

Sharplate resists being damaged (damage=division) and will eventually reform even when it does get damaged. In the same manner,

 

A few thoughts on Damage:

- damage can just be a bend or buckle in the armour, which doesn't have to entail division (division implies a tear / break etc)

- a half shard also resists being damaged

- every solid thing in fact, has some resistance to damage

 

And on regrowing / reforming : how is shardplate reforming linked to Division? Dalinar left a physical part of his shardplate on the battle field, but it would regrow on his suit, and the part left behind would crumble to dust…as long as he fed it storm light in the shape of infused gems. That regrowth is in no way shape or form, linked to Division.

 

Oh wait, we do have one: the Essence of Foil, the Essence of Kalak's Order, the Order that can access the Transportation Surge and an unknown Surge, the Order that is connected (on the KR chart) to the Dustbringers, who can in turn access the Friction Surge and (interestingly enough) the Division Surge.

 

That’s not an explanation, that’s a tenuous link….’we are adjoining orders, so we can utilise your surges?’ Extremely unlikely.

 

This is why all altering fabrials we've seen so far are attached to jewelry or machines that are metallic. It's not just to make them look cool or pretty. Those fabrials simply won't work without metal.

 

 

This is confusing because it is such a vague statement – why after all you’ve said, do you limit this conclusion to ‘altering fabrials’ (you don’t appear to have mentioned or defined this previously in the post)? And - don’t all fabrials alter something?

 

 

 

Again, I think the actual idea metal allowing investiture, and Shardblades being linked to the Division surge has some merit..many, if not most of the nominated justifications appear to me to be tenous.

Edited January 30, 2014 by vikorr

[skaa he/him]

2. I'm not suggesting you Soulcast gems, I'm suggesting you Soulcast metal to fill the gaps in the Shardplate, and then use gemstones touching the Shardplate to Invest this newly created metal to grant it the regular anti-Shardblade properties. The metal created could include sockets for gems, but no actual gems. Regular Shardplate doesn't produce gems.

Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood. That should teach me about trying to form arguments at 3AM in the morning. Anyway, it seems you're correct. Soulcasting does look like a viable alternative if you don't believe in Division-diminishing. Upvote for that!

I wonder, though, if the Identity of air molecules could be a problem. As I understand it, Soulcasting involves targeting specific Identities (the glass beads) in Shadesmar. Turning a wall into smoke is easy since a wall can be seen as a single Identity with clear borders, and so it will have a single glass bead in Shadesmar. It seems to me that due to the nature of gases, an air-to-metal Soulcasting spell will have to target an astoundingly large amount of individual "air molecule" glass beads in order to re-form the Shardplate. If a single Shadesmar bead can deplete the Stormlight of a regular-sized gemstone, how much Stormlight will you need to Soulcast that many "air molecule" Identities?

On the other hand, if a Division-diminishing spell was used, since it only needs to target the Shardplate as a whole, it can simply detect any Division happening on the Plate's Identity so that it can counteract the changes later.

 

Gravity Surgebinders don't decrease gravity! When Szeth half-Lashes himself, he's adding a force of Gravity on himself upwards to counteract the force pulling him down. The two forces cancel, so it seems like he's reducing Gravity. (Note: this may be completely wrong given gravity works on different principles in the Cosmere. Maybe.)

Similarly, I do not anticipate Growth Surgebinders to be capable of un-growing things. Otherwise Lift would be able to kill people with a touch. While cool, I don't see that happening.

Good points. Perhaps some Surges can't be diminished via normal Surgebinding after all. But we do know that there are Diminisher fabrials, so I think that whatever Surge is involved in "Surge spellcasting" (let's call it the Surge X), it can be augmented to create "Surge spells" that diminish. So while a "Surge X Surgebinder" can only augment Surge X, Surge X itself can diminish other Surges.

 

Edit: Waiiit a minute... Lift clearly diminishes the Friction Surge whenever she goes "slick". So clearly Surgebinders can diminish their Surges. Besides, Jasnah herself can kill with a touch (or even without touching!), so Lift using Awesome Death Fingers won't be out of place.

 

While I like the idea that metal allows investiture, and even that shardplate utilises the Division surge...

Again, I think the actual idea metal allowing investiture, and Shardblades being linked to the Division surge has some merit.

Hello vikorr! Thanks for those kind words!

 

- damage can just be a bend or buckle in the armour, which doesn't have to entail division (division implies a tear / break etc)

According to Szeth in the Way of Kings Prologue, Shardplate "didn't dent or bend like common metal". It only breaks.

 

- a half shard also resists being damaged

Yet the Shardplate enchantment seems to perform a more complex manipulation of the Division Surge. Not only does it resist the effects of Division-causing events (being hit with sharp objects, etc.), it also fixes the Division that does happen.

The modern Artifabrians who made the half shards must be quite skilled, I'm sure. But they are still limited by their reliance on gemstones to filter Stormlight. Instead of having to bother with finding the correct gemstone cut and configuration (which can't be very intuitive, I imagine) or the correct spren to trap, a theoretical "Surge spellcaster" would have been able to Invest metal with words (or maybe symbols), which makes the task akin to computer programming.

It's the difference between circuitry design and Javascript coding. It's just easier to do more complex stuff with the latter.

 

- every solid thing in fact, has some resistance to damage

Sure. The ten Surges are the fundamental forces of nature on Roshar (this is revealed in Words of Radiance, Chapter 3). I imagine that all ordinary matter there is affected by the Division Surge, with gases being the most affected and solids being the least.

 

This is confusing because it is such a vague statement – why after all you’ve said, do you limit this conclusion to ‘altering fabrials’ (you don’t appear to have mentioned or defined this previously in the post)? And - don’t all fabrials alter something?

Hmmm... I suggest you re-read the Way of Kings Ars Arcanum first, and then re-read the original post. Perhaps it will be less vague then. Conjoiners and reversers alter only themselves, while alerters do nothing but glow brighter when sensing things.

 

And on regrowing / reforming : how is shardplate reforming linked to Division? Dalinar left a physical part of his shardplate on the battle field, but it would regrow on his suit, and the part left behind would crumble to dust…as long as he fed it storm light in the shape of infused gems. That regrowth is in no way shape or form, linked to Division.

Sure it is. It is a form of anti-Division, since it moves to reform the Shardplate back to its original unbroken, undivided state (assuming there is enough Stormlight to power the reformation). As for that small piece left behind in the battle field, the Shardplate's Cognitive Identity no longer sees that as part of itself, so the reformation Investiture (which depends on the Cognitive Realm) will not include that. That's the way Brandon's Realmatics work according to his interviews.

 

And why then are they necessary to powering and regrowing shardplate?

Because their current users aren't Surgebinders. They won't be able to provide Stormlight to the Sharplate except through gemstones. That wasn't always the case.

 

This isn’t true either – they are necessary to the bond:

"Salinor hesitated, then touched the ruby at the weapon’s pommel. The gemstone flashed with light. The bond had been broken.

Adolin stood, ripping the ruby free, then crushing it in a gauntleted hand. That wouldn’t be needed, but it was a nice symbol."

If Shardblades had to have a gemstone to bond, then Adolin had just destroyed the bonding capability of that Shardblade. That means if he accidentally let it go before attaching a new "bonding fabrial" to it, then it would have turned to mist, and it would have been lost forever.

No, I believe that the gemstone found on some Shardblade pommels only act as added security, and that Shardblades work just fine without them.

 

That’s not an explanation, that’s a tenuous link….’we are adjoining orders, so we can utilise your surges?’ Extremely unlikely.

 

LOL, I was just having fun listing coincidences. I wasn't claiming that Kak Order Surgebinders can perform direct "Dustbringing" themselves or anything (though I believe they could create metallic objects that could do so). No, I just wanted to show how all the important terms in my theory are somehow all linked in an amusing set of coincidences.   (And also, it references my gemstone-pairing theory, in case reader has already seen that before.)

Edited January 31, 2014 by skaa