Preservation and Sixteen

[BlackYeti he/him]

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

On Ruin and Preservation: 1 X 16 = ?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. 1 * 16 = ? ⇒ ? = 16

Can you elaborate on what you meant here?

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

On Roshar, there are only 9 currency gems (Odium Significance?), Life is the power of Cultivation... it only exists on 3 planets.  

I think that this is a stretch to be honest.

Firstly, where did you hear that there are only 9 gems used in the Rosharan currency? According to the Coppermind there are 8 gem types which we know are used in the currency. Now, there are 10 types of Polestones (gems that can hold Stormlight), and of these 10 only smokestone and heliodor are not mentioned in the article. I don't recall seeing anything that suggests that only 9 of the 10 are used in the currency however. Which of the Polestones is the one that you say is not represented here?

[Edit: I've found the reference now, you were right .]

Regardless, if we assume that what you say is true, then this is a result of the cultures on Roshar. It does not say anything about the laws of the world's magic.

On your second point: Cultivation exists only on Roshar as far as we know. I thus don't see how the number of planets with life on them is relevant to her.

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

Remember the metals used on Scandrial are no different than any other metals (the God metals are not part of the 16.)  the investiture on Scadrial is not in the metals but in the people.  On Roshar the investiture is not directly in the people, but in the relationship between the people and the Spren. 

I take it you're talking about how they receive Kinetic Investiture? If so then this is not correct.

On Scadrial, the people do not have the Investiture inside them. In regards to Allomancy, when the metals are burned a conduit is opened to Preservation through which the Investiture travels: i.e. it comes from outside the Allomancer. In Feruchemy, the Feruchemist weakens themselves, and converts that attribute to Investiture to store in the metalmind. In a sense the Investiture didn't really exist, and was not therefore inside them, before they converted the attribute to the Investiture. And finally with Haemalurgy, a person's Innate Investiture is being ripped out of them and converted into Kinetic Investiture in the spike. Technically this one does come from within the people, but crucially it doesn't come from the Haemalurgists themselves.

Unless of course you're talking about Innate Investiture, in which case everyone on every world has Investiture inside themselves.

I'm confused as to what you're saying here, but I don't see how it supports the proposition that each Shard has a number associated with them.

Edited February 22, 2017 by BlackYeti

[Hawkido]

7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

That's approaching Cultivation from a really limited viewpoint. It's more accurately the natural growth and enhancement of concepts and objects, the opposite of Ruin's desire to bring about the natural end to things. Also, What are you considering to be life? One of the planets is home to cognitive entities, which I don't consider to be alive. 

He's been there for several millennia at least, which means he would've naturally begun investing into it. Shards naturally start investing into worlds (at least), if they remain around it for too long. 

I don't know what you're saying here. Please elaborate.

 

You said ruin's powers on Scadrial are also 16 in number... what is his number, 1? 1 X 16 is 16.

all 3 planets originally had life... Odium eliminated MOST but not all life from 2 of them.  that isn't Cultivation's fault. Life IS magical.  Spren existed on these planets BEFORE any shards arrived.  Sanderson hinted it was fragments of Adonalsium that created the original spren.  Cultivation and Honor further developed and invested into them.

Odium was trapped there thousands of years ago by Honor and Cultivation, Honor died during the springing of the trap which it seems was Cultivation's plan (trapping Odium, probabl not getting Honor Killed in the process).  and yes BECAUSE of the trap he was invested enough so now he needs to eliminate all invested life to be freed once again.  That is why 2 planets have pretty much been purged.

 

This also seems to be the big background struggle on Roshar, the other shard worlds are trying to prevent Odium being freed, even if it means the continued torment of the people of Roshar.  Hoid wants to help, but only if it means Odium gets splintered in the process.  If Odium cannot be splintered then Hoid will do what he must to make sure Odium remains trapped, until another shard holder can become powerful enough to splinter Odium.  At least one group is of Odium, working to free Odium, I don't know if they realize that in order for Odium to be freed all of his followers will also need to be purged.  This also plays into what I believe is happening on Sel.  Some being is gathering the fragments of Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion.  I believe the entity is a dragon buried in the ground of Sel.  I believe it has succeeded at least partially, and I had believed it was the person that Hoid wrote the letter to.  I'll quote the letter below.  Now I see that unless Hoid is being particularly facetious he is talking to yet another entity that has now come into possession of a shard.  As Hoid was present at the original splintering of Adonalsium, and Hoid has spoken to this person before this point but after the original splintering of Adonalsium then it is safe to say he is talking to someone who picked up a shard that was dropped from one of the other original shard holders who have died, or perhaps released it.

Quote

Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given. I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere's great constants, I should think. 

Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say. You do not agree with my quest. I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely. Might I be quite frank? Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason: Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met. He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited. One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say. In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse. 

You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true. Neither point makes the things I have written to you untrue. I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me. If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you'll call them off. Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once. For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives. I've never begged you for something before, old friend. 

I do so now.

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Hawkido
grammar

[Hawkido]

On 2/21/2017 at 6:58 PM, BlackYeti said:

On your second point: Cultivation exists only on Roshar as far as we know. I thus don't see how the number of planets with life on them is relevant to her.

I take it you're talking about how they receive Kinetic Investiture? If so then this is not correct.

On Scadrial, the people do not have the Investiture inside them. In regards to Allomancy, when the metals are burned a conduit is opened to Preservation through which the Investiture travels: i.e. it comes from outside the Allomancer. In Feruchemy, the Feruchemist weakens themselves, and converts that attribute to Investiture to store in the metalmind. In a sense the Investiture didn't really exist, and was not therefore inside them, before they converted the attribute to the Investiture. And finally with Haemalurgy, a person's Innate Investiture is being ripped out of them and converted into Kinetic Investiture in the spike. Technically this one does come from within the people, but crucially it doesn't come from the Haemalurgists themselves.

Unless of course you're talking about Innate Investiture, in which case everyone on every world has Investiture inside themselves.

I'm confused as to what you're saying here, but I don't see how it supports the proposition that each Shard has a number associated with them.

Shards invest in a system, else Pres and Ruin would not have been able to create a planet.  there are other systems where a shard has presence on more than one body.  I believe that they can invest heavily in one planet, or even completely in one planet or spread it out more thinly.  Other than life you don't see a whole lot of Cultivations power invested on any of the planets other than the Night Watcher.

Reread Bands of Mourning... Particularly the parts about identity and investiture... You will see I am right, or at least how I came to those particular conclusions.

An Allomancer can go to another Planet and burn the metals on that planet and do allomancy.  Hoid burns zinc and brass all the time.  "Tell me a story" "No" "Tell me a story" "Okay".  LOL.  That is a WoB by the way, that Hoid burns metals.

as to your last statement, do you not think that preservation had a number?  What about Honor?  If you don't think that those two have significant numbers that are listed as Holy, once by a Shard directly and once by WoB for the other, then I can't even begin to explain to you.  I am here looking for help scanning for info to help pin point  the other numbers... if you don't think this is a worth pursuit, then you have said you part and made your point and I respect that.  Imma still be lookin tho!

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Hawkido
left out a negative

[Hawkido]

On 2/17/2017 at 1:14 PM, Landis963 said:

Does that mean Endowment was Shard #5?  And what of Taldain, which has "a thousand fools" and no other religiously significant numbers?  (I'm assuming that D&D's numbers have long been forgotten since they were splintered)

Ill reread warbreaker... where did you see the reference to 5?  Last time I read through it I wasn't looking for the number significance (5 Scholars?)  Perhaps.

Taldain, we will have to wait for more GN's to be published, I think there will be 3 total in that series.

I am going to assume that D&D are neighbors, just like Ruin (1) and Preservation (16) (when wiewed as a circle 1 and 16 are neighbors).

[BlackYeti he/him]

2 hours ago, Hawkido said:

You said ruin's powers on Scadrial are also 16 in number... what is his number, 1? 1 X 16 is 16.

Why would Ruin's number be 1? I don't think we've ever seen 1 as a significant number Scadrial. 16 has been prevalent throughout all of the metallic arts, including Ruin's own Haemalurgy. I honestly think that any other number you could come up with for Ruin would be a stretch, but if you were to try, might I suggest looking instead at a base 2 number, since the metals are all organised by base 2 numbers.

2 hours ago, Hawkido said:

all 3 planets originally had life... Odium eliminated MOST but not all life from 2 of them.  that isn't Cultivation's fault. Life IS magical.  Spren existed on these planets BEFORE any shards arrived.  Sanderson hinted it was fragments of Adonalsium that created the original spren.  Cultivation and Honor further developed and invested into them.

Where's your source for this? Ashyn certainly suffered a cataclysm in the past which elimited most of the life there, but how do we know that it was caused by Odium? (I'll grant you that it's likely, but I don't remember hearing confirmation of that.) Braize on the other hand, as far as I know, has no life on it at all other than the Splinters inhabiting it. (I would disagree with @Spoolofwhool here, I do consider Splinters to be life. However that's not really relevant here: we do not know the constitution of the Splinters, they could all be of Odium.)

3 hours ago, Hawkido said:

Odium was trapped there thousands of years ago by Honor and Cultivation, Honor died during the springing of the trap which it seems was Cultivation's plan (trapping Odium, probabl not getting Honor Killed in the process).  and yes BECAUSE of the trap he was invested enough so now he needs to eliminate all invested life to be freed once again.  That is why 2 planets have pretty much been purged.

We do not know how Odium killed Honour. I don't see how it could have been caused by the trapping of Odium however: Hounour died post-Recreance, that's millennia after the trap was sprung.

3 hours ago, Hawkido said:

This also seems to be the big background struggle on Roshar, the other shard worlds are trying to prevent Odium being freed, even if it means the continued torment of the people of Roshar.  Hoid wants to help, but only if it means Odium gets splintered in the process.  If Odium cannot be splintered then Hoid will do what he must to make sure Odium remains trapped, until another shard holder can become powerful enough to splinter Odium.  At least one group is of Odium, working to free Odium, I don't know if they realize that in order for Odium to be freed all of his followers will also need to be purged.  This also plays into what I believe is happening on Sel.  Some being is gathering the fragments of Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion.  I believe the entity is a dragon buried in the ground of Sel.  I believe it has succeeded at least partially, and I had believed it was the person that Hoid wrote the letter to.  I'll quote the letter below.  Now I see that unless Hoid is being particularly facetious he is talking to yet another entity that has now come into possession of a shard.  As Hoid was present at the original splintering of Adonalsium, and Hoid has spoken to this person before this point but after the original splintering of Adonalsium then it is safe to say he is talking to someone who picked up a shard that was dropped from one of the other original shard holders who have died, or perhaps released it.

 Again, where are you getting any of this from? We don't know what Hoid's goals are, we only know that he hates Rayse. Where's the evidence for other worlds trying to keep Odium imprisoned? Which is the group that's working to free Odium, and how do you know that all of his followers would need to be purged in order to free him?

I understand that you say that the next part is your own theory, but why do you think that there's a dragon on Sel? The letter was most likely written to Frost, why do you think that this is not correct? And why do you think that the recipient is or was a Shard's Vessel?

2 hours ago, Hawkido said:

Shards invest in a system, else Pres and Ruin would have been able to create a planet.  there are other systems where a shard has presence on more than one body.  I believe that they can invest heavily in one planet, or even completely in one planet or spread it out more thinly.  Other than life you don't see a whole lot of Cultivations power invested on any of the planets other than the Night Watcher.

Granted, they can do this, I just don't know of any evidence that Cultivation has done this: "could have" is really a good basis for a theory.

3 hours ago, Hawkido said:

Reread Bands of Mourning... Particularly the parts about identity and investiture... You will see I am right, or at least how I came to those particular conclusions.

I've read BoM multiple times, I'm very familiar with it: which part are you referring to? Again, it seems that I'm not really understanding your argument properly.

3 hours ago, Hawkido said:

An Allomancer can go to another Planet and burn the metals on that planet and do allomancy.  Hoid burns zinc and brass all the time.  "Tell me a story" "No" "Tell me a story" "Okay".  LOL.  That is a WoB by the way, that Hoid burns metals.

Yes, I'm also very familar with the events of Middlefest, and of the WoBs that say that you can use Allomancy on other worlds and with non-Scadrian metals. This is possible because the metals, as I said in my previous post, open a conduit to Preservation. Preservation exists primarily in the Spiritual Realm which is time/space independent, thus Preservation can be reached in this manner from anywhere in the Cosmere, despite the fact that he is located on Scadrial. The Investiture does not already exist within the Allomancer.

3 hours ago, Hawkido said:

as to your last statement, do you not think that preservation had a number?  What about Honor?  If you don't think that those two have significant numbers that are listed as Holy, once by a Shard directly and once by WoB for the other, then I can't even begin to explain to you.  I am here looking for help scanning for info to help pin point  the other numbers... if you don't think this is a worth pursuit, then you have said you part and made your point and I respect that.  Imma still be lookin tho!

My personal view at the moment is that the numbers are most likely connected to the planets themselves, not to the Shards. Thus 16 is significant to Scadrial, 10 to Roshar and Ashyn, and 9 to Braize.

I'm not trying to stop you from looking for ways to tie the numbers to Shards, in fact I would encourage you to continue (after all I could be entirely wrong on this), but that doesn't mean that I won't point out a mistake if I think I see one. 

[Spoolofwhool]

These are some really interesting points, and I'll have to respond to them in detail later. However, for now I'll point out that the evidence being provided to argue that the numbers belong to the shards seems to be a set of massive stretches when compared to the arguments that the numbers belong to the planets, since we have direct cases of associating the numbers with the planets.

Re: Cultivation: Roshar had life, sapient life, before the shards arrived, by all accounts, and possibly human life as well, so you're point that three planets with life indicate Cultivation is three doesn't really work since the life is independent of her presence.

[Landis963 he/him]

4 hours ago, Hawkido said:

Ill reread warbreaker... where did you see the reference to 5?  Last time I read through it I wasn't looking for the number significance (5 Scholars?)  Perhaps.

Taldain, we will have to wait for more GN's to be published, I think there will be 3 total in that series.

I am going to assume that D&D are neighbors, just like Ruin (1) and Preservation (16) (when viewed as a circle 1 and 16 are neighbors).

The 5 Visions of Vo and the Five Scholars are the references I can remember off the top of my head.  I'm sure there's at least one other reference to 5 as important.  

[Yata he/him]

30 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

The 5 Visions of Vo and the Five Scholars are the references I can remember off the top of my head.  I'm sure there's at least one other reference to 5 as important.  

Someone (not confirmed) adds also "Five kinds of use of biochroma" the Canoninc 4  Awaken Type Entities+ Humans

Edited February 22, 2017 by Yata

[The One Who Connects he/him]

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

(I would disagree with @Spoolofwhool here, I do consider Splinters to be life. However that's not really relevant here: we do not know the constitution of the Splinters, they could all be of Odium.)

Here. He does not specifically say that they are "the only" but he does say only Odiumspren are welcome. This implies that if there are other spren there, it likely isn't by choice (at least, in my opinion. that's what he's saying)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Only Odiumspren are welcome on Braize, but they're different from anything we've seen so far.

Edited February 22, 2017 by The One Who Connects
clarified opinion

[BlackYeti he/him]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Here. He does not specifically say that they are "the only" but he does say only Odiumspren are welcome. This implies that if there are other spren there, it likely isn't by choice

There could certainly be other types of spren there, however we do not know that there are, which was my point. To quote Shallan: "no supposition should be treated as axiomatic." Thus the possibility of other spren types on Braize should not be taken as evidence for Cultivation's presence there.

Also, for future reference, when linking to theoryland, try to avoid linking to the search results themselves: these can change over time. It's better to link to the interview page itself. Like so: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178#23

[Hawkido]

On 2/22/2017 at 7:38 AM, Landis963 said:

The 5 Visions of Vo and the Five Scholars are the references I can remember off the top of my head.  I'm sure there's at least one other reference to 5 as important.  

I reread WB, besides those 2 five references, there are also 25 returned gods (not counting the GodKing) and as no god had died in years to grant a request we can make a healthy presumption that 25 is a full pantheon.  5X5= 25.  squares and roots are an established pattern when dealing with shard numbers.

[Spoolofwhool]

20 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

5X5= 25.  squares and roots are an established pattern when dealing with shard numbers.

You need at least one other case to make a pattern, and that's still a stretch. I wouldn't call something a pattern unless you have three items.

Also, as you say, there are actually 26 Returned since the God King isnt actuslly any more special than the other returned. So the square root pattern just falls apart. I doubt Endowment would start making patterns just to match people's belief system. Also, there was a perfectly rational explanation for why no Returned has died so you're going to have to make a case for how Endowment is affecting their decision to not heal people as well. Additionally, there are known to be 27 Returned at that time around Halladren as there is also the baby returned which is to be the next God King so there clearly isn't a limit on the creation of Returned. 

Overall, you're going to have to come up with more substantial arguments. Furthermore, I'm not seeing a reason why you have to inject all this extra complexity into the system when most of what we've seen can be more easily explained by the numbers being associated with the planets. 

[Hawkido]

33 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

You need at least one other case to make a pattern, and that's still a stretch. I wouldn't call something a pattern unless you have three items.

Also, as you say, there are actually 26 Returned since the God King isnt actuslly any more special than the other returned. So the square root pattern just falls apart. I doubt Endowment would start making patterns just to match people's belief system. Also, there was a perfectly rational explanation for why no Returned has died so you're going to have to make a case for how Endowment is affecting their decision to not heal people as well. Additionally, there are known to be 27 Returned at that time around Halladren as there is also the baby returned which is to be the next God King so there clearly isn't a limit on the creation of Returned. 

Overall, you're going to have to come up with more substantial arguments. Furthermore, I'm not seeing a reason why you have to inject all this extra complexity into the system when most of what we've seen can be more easily explained by the numbers being associated with the planets. 

Roots were used in Mistborn, 2's and 4's dealing with allomantic metals.  100 desolations, 25 godkings.  There 3 examples, it IS a pattern... You now bear witness for me, by your own words.

 

As stated repeatedly in warbreaker the God King is DIFFERENT...He is the only returned that was born dead.  Each God King is a still born returned.  None of the other returned have that quality.  Whenever they find another stillborn returned they retire a GodKing.  As to the 27 known returned... How many were returned gods?  25.  And the God King.  and that other returned, was actually the First God King, who retired...  so you are saying there are 25 returned gods and a god king which is exactly what I said.

 

Why am I looking for this number system?  Because so few are.  and the planet number makes Capital ZERO sense as to why it would have a holy significance to the shard holder's magic system, also it is stated that the shard's are not omniscient how would they know they inhabited the 7th planet?  Also there are shard's that were splintered before investing in a planet.  and some planet's had more than one shard...  see?  D&D were on one planet, P&R were on one planet... so that means 14 would be the absolute highest number... right??????????  However the order in which they picked up the shards would, and that number would carry forward even if that shard were transferred to another holder.

Okay, you clearly need to do more thinking before going back to the planet theory.  Get back with me once you come up with another reason why I should give up this quest and join you on the broken path of planetism.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Hawkido
added the first point

[Hawkido]

also why mention twice that there are 25 returned gods if you are not going to name them, or otherwise make them pertinent to that book's story.  It isn't like they were lined up and shot by arrows... but they needed to make sure they brought 25 arrows to the execution...  This is how you hide things when writing books.  Sure there will be red herrings, and other misinformation meant to throw us off the path.  Sanderson said that he hid hints and significance in the books, he only brought the Cosmere more to the front in the last few books he wrote (the major books that is tWoK, Bands of Mourning, and Words of Radiance)  Possibly Hero of ages as well. 

 

And before anyone says that the shard's ARE omniscient why couldn't Odium find Ambition, since Ambition was #1 on Odium's hitlist.

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Hawkido said:

As stated repeatedly in warbreaker the God King is DIFFERENT...He is the only returned that was born dead.  Each God King is a still born returned.  None of the other returned have that quality.  Whenever they find another stillborn returned they retire a GodKing.  As to the 27 known returned... How many were returned gods?  25.  And the God King.  and that other returned, was actually the First God King, who retired...  so you are saying there are 25 returned gods and a god king which is exactly what I said.

Unfortunately that's just religious scriptures. It's specifically said that the God King is just a returned infant that the priests pretend is the child of the previous God King. While it is possible for returned to bear children, and chances are that those children are not returned as indicated by the Idris royal family, the priests have not managed to make that happen yet, nor have they tried very hard. So as I said before, this is founded on false premises, making it therefore invalid. 

The 27 returned are the 25 you listed plus the God King which is a regular returned just with a lot more breath, and the infant returned the priests are grooming to be the next God King. This is just in the vicinity of Halladren too. The previous God Kings are still alive and retired to a retreat managed by the priests, as the story that they sacrifice themselves is just as false, as the ability to heal multiple people is in fact outside of their power as their divine breath is the same as all the other returned, and able to only heal one person. Furthermore, there is also the fact that there at least three other returned running around: Vasher, VanTreledees (Denth), and Yesteel, bringing the known total of returned existing at one time to 30. 

Now I'm lazy, so I'm not going to get the specific passages from the book or annotations which support my argument that the God King is just a regular returned unless you ask me to. Additionally, you haven't addressed any other point I've made to that remark. Now for the rest of your points.

14 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Why am I looking for this number system?  Because so few are.

And I'm presenting a possible reason why there's a lower number.

15 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

and the planet number makes Capital ZERO sense as to why it would have a holy significance to the shard holder's magic system

It makes sense when you consider the fact that manifestations of investiture occur as a result of a shard investing into a planet, influenced by both the nature of the shard and the nature of the planet. This is a known fact. 

16 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

also it is stated that the shard's are not omniscient how would they know they inhabited the 7th planet?

I have no idea what you're referencing here.

16 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Also there are shard's that were splintered before investing in a planet.  and some planet's had more than one shard...  see?  D&D were on one planet, P&R were on one planet... so that means 14 would be the absolute highest number... right??????????

I don't see how you're reaching this conclusion. Are you somehow tying the numbers of the planets to the existence of shards and their ability to invest into it? There is nothing to indicate, nor has anyone said anything towards it, that the numbers of the planet are somehow dependent on the shards. Now this argument is just seriously flimsy. 

18 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Okay, you clearly need to do more thinking before going back to the planet theory.  Get back with me once you come up with another reason why I should give up this quest and join you on the broken path of planetism.

Don't need to go back to it since I've never left it. Also, I think I've done a lot of thinking on the matter considering I actually know what I'm talking about. I think I've come up with at least one other reason. 

5 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

also why mention twice that there are 25 returned gods if you are not going to name them, or otherwise make them pertinent to that book's story.  It isn't like they were lined up and shot by arrows... but they needed to make sure they brought 25 arrows to the execution...  This is how you hide things when writing books.  Sure there will be red herrings, and other misinformation meant to throw us off the path.  Sanderson said that he hid hints and significance in the books, he only brought the Cosmere more to the front in the last few books he wrote (the major books that is tWoK, Bands of Mourning, and Words of Radiance)  Possibly Hero of ages as well. 

True, it could have some significance. However, it doesn't mean it has to have significance towards this case when every other piece of evidence in the same vein that you've provided is either tenuous or incorrect. Also, don't doublepost. There's an edit button. Use it.

I am impressed though that you managed to pick out the fact that they mentioned that there are 25 returned gods in Halladren currently but  missed the exposition conversation where they go over the fact that the God King isn't actually a stillborn heir to the previous God King. 

[Hawkido]

6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I am impressed though that you managed to pick out the fact that they mentioned that there are 25 returned gods in Halladren currently but  missed the exposition conversation where they go over the fact that the God King isn't actually a stillborn heir to the previous God King. 

He isn't always the stillborn heir.  Sometimes he is a replacement because the priests can't get it to work.   The third GodKing was a legitimate Heir, the Fourth was not, but the older Sister was legitimate.  I  am Impressed that you fail to notice that the GodKing does not hold court or hear petitions like the other Gods, because he isn't like the other Gods.  I am surprised you failed to noticed that returned happen all the time all over the place... but they are not setup as gods and feed breath to keep them alive and analyzed for any hints about the future or the reason they returned and treated as gods.  He isn't given the option to give up his Divine Breath for another.  Once a New GodKing is born (either legitimately, or a replacement) the Old GodKing and his Wife if he has one and any female Heirs Legitimately born are sent to the islands to live out their life in luxury for as long as they wish to live.  Did you not catch that there were Females heirs?  Why would they have a female returned child replacement if only a Male would do?  They can have children, but if there is a stillborn or infant returned child they will use it and retire the GodKing and use the replacement instead, because the GodKing is different.  So we still have 25 Gods in the Pantheon and 1 GodKing.  Think, perhaps consider and maybe reread before you come back to this.  Make sure you re-read the annotations on WarBreaker.  I also think you are not trying to help... In fact you seem to be doing more to derail this effort, I am not sure why.  Theories do not take up space and you do not have to subscribe to them all.  

Quote

Brandon talked about something he called "Honor's purposes" or maybe "Honor's Purposes," and how they are the reason 10 is such a holy and dominant number.

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Your Reply to a WoB:

each of the three systems on Roshar have the number 10 embedded, and I don't think all of them are only of Honor. At least one is probably not of Honor at all.

How can Honor's Purposes (as Brandon calls them) have anything to do with where the hell he sets his buttocks?  There are 30 magic powers on Roshar.  We know Odium does not invest in systems, It is presumed to keep himself more powerful when it comes to attacking and splintering other shards.  3X10 = 30. that is why I say cultivation is 3. 

 

45 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I have no idea what you're referencing here.

If you don't know what I am talking about then I have no clue what you mean by your planetism.  Where do you get your number?  Scadrial is the only planet in the Scadrial system, how do you see 16 being relevant? It didn't exist prior to P&R showing up.  We KNOW that Preservation's number is 16.  Since there are only 16 allomantic metals metals (excluding the GodMetals and their alloys, (hmmm excluding the GodKing, hmm) 1X16 = 16.  No other number can yield that result.

52 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It makes sense when you consider the fact that manifestations of investiture occur as a result of a shard investing into a planet, influenced by both the nature of the shard and the nature of the planet. This is a known fact.

You seem Confused... See I say Preservation will always have fireworks in Sixteens... you seem to be saying that his 16 Sparklers will be a different color if he were on a different planet, and using that as your reasoning that Preservation would have a different number of sparklers if he moved.  I agree his sparklers would be different on a different planet.  NO ONE is arguing with that.  I am saying that without another shard's influence Preservation would always be a BASE16 magic system.  Just as I say Honor, no matter which planet he went to would have a BASE10 magic system... Cultivation BASE3, in a system with honor and cultivation a total of 30 magic systems.  If they moved to a different planet would their magic be of a different quality, sure, but they would be of the same QUANTITY.

[snote]

I have been a fan of the numerical aspects of the Cosmere for a while. A couple things I noticed. One, I think Cultivation is 9 and Odium is 11. I don't have a huge amount of evidence for this but at one point, I believe it's Teft, curses by "Damnation's 11th name." Which is the only time in the books that I've found a specific reference to one of the other shards having a number associated with it.

I like the idea of 9 being cultivation because of its properties, it's square root is 3, it's interesting multiplication mechanics where the two numbers added together are always 9. Also, with 11, it is such a clunky number to do anything with.

Anyways. Just thought I'd add my two bits in.

[Yata he/him]

@Hawkido

Your point has almost no sense. The "god king" isn't nothing special at all. It's just a Returned used as Vault for Peacegiver's treasure, only because they use another manner with him this doesn't mean there is something intrisecal different between Susebron and the others. There isn't a single thing a God King could do and a Returned can't.

Give birth to offspring is something every Returned could do with the right circumstances....Vo did it

Multiple Healing with Divine Breath, was a false story.

The powerful Biocroma is of course passed with the role, strictly speaking almost half of Susebron's Breath were of Vasher.

 

The God King isn't let to interact with people because He is a Vault, a single knife and the Peacegiver's treasure is no more, you can't honestly base your ideas with the social rules. It's like to say that Fullborn are gods because TLR was workshipped.

You have to separate "true informations" from "people's thought and cultures"

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We KNOW that Preservation's number is 16.  Since there are only 16 allomantic metals metals (excluding the GodMetals and their alloys, (hmmm excluding the GodKing, hmm) 1X16 = 16.  No other number can yield that result.

Notice there are 16 Hemalurgic Metal too. So for your own logic, Ruin could be 16 and Preservation 1...just to say

Edited February 26, 2017 by Yata

[Hawkido]

On 2/25/2017 at 11:35 AM, Yata said:

@Hawkido

Your point has almost no sense. The "god king" isn't nothing special at all. It's just a Returned used as Vault for Peacegiver's treasure, only because they use another manner with him this doesn't mean there is something intrisecal different between Susebron and the others. There isn't a single thing a God King could do and a Returned can't.

Give birth to offspring is something every Returned could do with the right circumstances....Vo did it

Multiple Healing with Divine Breath, was a false story.

The powerful Biocroma is of course passed with the role, strictly speaking almost half of Susebron's Breath were of Vasher.

 

The God King isn't let to interact with people because He is a Vault, a single knife and the Peacegiver's treasure is no more, you can't honestly base your ideas with the social rules. It's like to say that Fullborn are gods because TLR was workshipped.

You have to separate "true informations" from "people's thought and cultures"

 

Separate true information about someone's religion, without taking into account their thoughts and cultures?  Huh...

Hellandrin is where the Tears of Edgli grow.  How many breaths does it take to reach the first heightening?  How about the tenth heightening?  50 and 50,000.  Who setup the current system, the only person to reach the 10th heightening, the GodKings are the only others to have followed in achieving the tenth heightening by inheriting the breaths (at least 50,000 breaths were from Vasher, once he retired as the First GodKing).  And your Point about TLR actually supports my point.  As the Only Fullborn to walk the planet, he was the only person to figure out what was going on.  He unfortunately couldn't talk about it as Ruin would overhear, and leaving metal notes were dangerous as his priests might screw up and speak the words or might scribe them on another medium other than metal.  Both the GodKing and TLR had ageless quality, instinctive control, and full access to all the investiture available to them.  Both were worshipped and both are favored by their shards.  Preservation was heartbroken when TLR died, he thought he finally found someone who could persevere.  Endowment doesn't care about the someone lasting, only in that they endow someone else with the power, make something else greater than it otherwise would be.  These are the Champions of the Shards, what does it matter if the common people do or do not call them gods?  what matters is that Brandon leaves these bits to indicate what Ordinal Number each shard has, which is also their Cardinal Number.  It is something to look for, something to occupy the readers that are interested in finding these little eggs.  It might be a complete waste of time but I find it fun.  Also it sounds like Brandon to play with the idea that both the Ordinal and Cardinal number be bound to each shard, and/or bind each shard by the same.

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Notice there are 16 Hemalurgic Metal too. So for your own logic, Ruin could be 16 and Preservation 1...just to say

Except you kinda forgot, Preservation said 16 was significant so you could know it was of Preservation.  It was both holy and significant of Preservation.  nice try tho.

[Hawkido]

On 2/25/2017 at 10:39 AM, snote said:

I have been a fan of the numerical aspects of the Cosmere for a while. A couple things I noticed. One, I think Cultivation is 9 and Odium is 11. I don't have a huge amount of evidence for this but at one point, I believe it's Teft, curses by "Damnation's 11th name." Which is the only time in the books that I've found a specific reference to one of the other shards having a number associated with it.

I like the idea of 9 being cultivation because of its properties, it's square root is 3, it's interesting multiplication mechanics where the two numbers added together are always 9. Also, with 11, it is such a clunky number to do anything with.

Anyways. Just thought I'd add my two bits in.

That's the quote that originally had me thinking Odium might be 11, that and Sanderson said it wasn't 10.  Perhaps you are right, I'll anote the list as an alternate possibility.  And as roots are a pattern then 9 might fit and then the currency could be of Cultivation not Odium then.

*edit*

Also Roshar has 30 magic systems, I had always though 3X10.  But it might also be 9+10+11=30.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Hawkido
Add last Paragraph.

[Yata he/him]

If TLR and the God King are Shard's Champions is quite meaningless to me honestly. This don't tell us nothing of the Cosmere's mechanics. Elend was Vin's Champ and Marsh's was the Ruin's one....How this help to provile some deep meaning, where all the Champion need to have is simply an useness to a Shard ?

About the Tenth Elevation, It stated that Vasher's wife was at least at the Ninth Elevation when she crafted Nightblood this fit all your Champion's criteria and notice also the Tenth could be not the hard limit for the Biochromatic's Tiers.

On 27/2/2017 at 6:49 PM, Hawkido said:

Except you kinda forgot, Preservation said 16 was significant so you could know it was of Preservation.  It was both holy and significant of Preservation.  nice try tho.

Preservation (as I said in the first posts of this topic) choosed the 16 as sign to mankind, because all the other one were to dependant from cultures. While the mortal could not change somtething like the Magic Metals' number. He explicity said there are other candidates but He discharged for the too variability (melting point and something like that). If he was so compulsive to try to put "his number" everywhere....It would be his first choice. Notice also that Preservation could think to the "16" as a important number for the whole Shattering reason.

On 27/2/2017 at 6:54 PM, Hawkido said:

That's the quote that originally had me thinking Odium might be 11, that and Sanderson said it wasn't 10.  Perhaps you are right, I'll anote the list as an alternate possibility.  And as roots are a pattern then 9 might fit and then the currency could be of Cultivation not Odium then.

*edit*

Also Roshar has 30 magic systems, I had always though 3X10.  But it might also be 9+10+11=30.

This is a lame argument, If you count Roshar's magics as "30", you need to count "Scadrial's Magics as "48" (if you consider all the single power as magic systems)

Edited March 3, 2017 by Yata

[Hawkido]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

This is a lame argument, If yoy count Roshar's magics as "30", you need to count "Scadrial's Magics as "48" (if you consider all the single power as magic systems)

I count Roshar's magics as 30 as that is what is quoted.

There are only 16 viable allomantic metals, (again excluding godmetals) You cannot perform any of the magics of Scandrial without them.  On Roshar without one of the 30 bindings you cannot perform any of those magics, regardless of stormlight.

 

[Hawkido]

On 2/22/2017 at 6:06 AM, BlackYeti said:

Why would Ruin's number be 1? I don't think we've ever seen 1 as a significant number Scadrial.

Ruin only has one power and it really isn't a power granted, but rather used.  It is the ability to steal (at a loss) another power, and that stolen power then atrophies into nothing over time.  Ruin doesn't care who uses this power as its use always serves Ruin's singular purpose every time it is practiced, ruin.

There is both an Ordinal and a Cardinal use of 1 for Ruin.  Again both quality and quantity relating to a shard's number.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Hawkido
emphasis

[BlackYeti he/him]

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

I count Roshar's magics as 30 as that is what is quoted.

There are only 16 viable allomantic metals, (again excluding godmetals) You cannot perform any of the magics of Scandrial without them.  On Roshar without one of the 30 bindings you cannot perform any of those magics, regardless of stormlight.

5

The problem here is that you're not comparing like with like.

If you want to say that there are 30 magic systems on Roshar, then that's a perfectly valid thing to do. But what it means is that you're not then considering Surgebinding to be a magic system: instead, you're either considering the individual Radiant Orders to be magic systems, or the individual Surges to be magic systems. If you then want to compare this with the Metallic Arts, however, this means that you can't consider Allomancy to be a magic system. Nor Feruchemy. Nor Haemalurgy. Instead, comparing like with like, you would have to consider pewter Allomancy to be its own magic system, the same with pewter Feruchemy and pewter Haemalurgy. The same is true for each metal in each of the Metallic Arts. This would mean that there are 48 magic systems on Scadrial as @Yata correctly pointed out.

If on the other hand, you want to view each of the Metallic Arts as its own magic system, that would mean that you would have to view Surgebinding (and Voidbinding and fabrials) as a single magic system, and so the number of magic systems on Roshar would total 3, not 30.

55 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Ruin only has one power and it really isn't a power granted, but rather used.  It is the ability to steal (at a loss) another power, and that stolen power then atrophies into nothing over time.  Ruin doesn't care who uses this power as its use always serves Ruin's singular purpose every time it is practiced, ruin.

1

Again, Haemalurgy can be considered as either 1 or 16 powers. If you say that Haemalurgy is only one power then that means that Allomancy is also only one power. You need to compare like with like.

Another example of your not comparing like with your example of the first and tenth Heightening (at 50 and 50,000 Breaths respectively) as an illustration of 5 being important on Nalthis. Leaving aside the fact that no Heightening other than the seventh Heightening (5000 Breaths) is consistent with this pattern, you've previously pointed at Scadrial's magics being centred around base 2, and Roshar's being based centred base 10 as highlighting the significance of Preservation's and Honour's supposed numbers. Yet none of the numbers of Breaths needed to reach a Heightening is a power of 5. Indeed you seem to be giving a special significance to the number 10 here. The only thing that 50, 5000, and 50,000 have in common for your pattern is that they are each 5 multiplied by 10 one or more times. Why would the number 10 have any significance on a base 5 scale?

It's very easy for the human mind to see patterns in things, this is true even when there is no pattern there to see (for example just look at what people see in the number 42). This is why it's so important to be consistent in your comparisons, it will happen far less if you are.

Also, you've already been asked once in this thread not to double-post and you've continued to disregard that request. Please stop doing it: it's actually against the forum rules.

[Hawkido]

On 2/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, BlackYeti said:

The problem here is that you're not comparing like with like.

Well see that is the problem, I am not trying to examine things that are alike.  I am counting Oranges on one planet and Apples on another. The powers are presented differently, used and passed on differently, and have completely different rules and laws.  Why would they be categorized the same?  I categorize my paints by hues and pigments, and my nuts and bolts by size and thread.  Why would i try to categorize my paints by size and thread?

On 2/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, BlackYeti said:

Again, Haemalurgy can be considered as either 1 or 16 powers. If you say that Haemalurgy is only one power then that means that Allomancy is also only one power. You need to compare like with like.

Again, why would they be categorized the same. When none of them are.

On 2/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, BlackYeti said:

Another example of your not comparing like with your example of the first and tenth Heightening (at 50 and 50,000 Breaths respectively) as an illustration of 5 being important on Nalthis. Leaving aside the fact that no Heightening other than the seventh Heightening (5000 Breaths) is consistent with this pattern, you've previously pointed at Scadrial's magics being centred around base 2, and Roshar's being based centred base 10 as highlighting the significance of Preservation's and Honour's supposed numbers. Yet none of the numbers of Breaths needed to reach a Heightening is a power of 5. Indeed you seem to be giving a special significance to the number 10 here. The only thing that 50, 5000, and 50,000 have in common for your pattern is that they are each 5 multiplied by 10 one or more times. Why would the number 10 have any significance on a base 5 scale?

Again, this is the third example of you not escaping the trap of thinking everything must be judged equally, Do you always check the exact same places when looking for something?  Even if you do not find it?  Why not look someplace you have not looked?  Example time: three farmers all brothers, the first son had only one tree, the second son had two barns and the third son had three children.  I am saying 1 = 1, 2 = 2, and 3 = 3.  I can see why you think I am not judging things the same, and understand why you have problems with it, but this is the problem, expand it out to 16 brothers... and lets judge them all on the same variable... number of children, how is it possible that the 16th brother did not have 15 children before he had 16?  you get a violation of the relationship of a number to a shard before being able to reach the shards number.  So I am comparing each shard and what it has to another shard and what it has.  The problem is there are planets that have more than one shard, Sanderson has said that usually having more than one shard on a planet will cause more magic systems, and also corrupt some magic systems so they work and/or behave differently.  So we have 30 magic systems on Roshar, but on Scandrial we know preservation is 16 (self proclaimed) Ruin seems to be one, as he has only one purpose, ruin, and his power plays directly into that purpose, the corruption between the shards create other magic system, on that planet 1x16 makes sense.  The rules are not the same.  This is very much like an IQ test.  it doesn't have to be the same rule that creates a relationship on every question.  Each system in the cosmere is a different question, a different rule or relationship will apply to each question.  What I am looking for and beginning to find and looking for help for the rest of the shards is that the answer to question 1 is 1 the answer to question 16 is 16 the answer to question 10 is 10.  And there you are... saying "Question 1 is about boxes and Question 10 is about cars!  You should count the boxes in question ten..." There are no boxes listed in question 10.  I am comparing the answers to the questions together with the number of said questions... and the answers are matching up both cardinally and ordinally.  Yes there may be inaccuracies, I will be making errors (have already at least twice, and acknowledged them and made corrections and additions to the list.)  But I have also received feedback from a few different people catching things and pointing out significance that I was able to re-read and find those same hints and patterns.  But if you do not want to help then ... don't.  If you want to find something else in the books then ... please do.  That is what Sanderson said is so great about writing and reading, everyone is free to find what they want in the books.  That is why he said he doesn't want to tell people how to pronounce names or places in the books.

On 2/27/2017 at 6:03 PM, BlackYeti said:

Also, you've already been asked once in this thread not to double-post and you've continued to disregard that request. Please stop doing it: it's actually against the forum rules.

I now see what you are calling a double post, I had always thought that was somehow posting the same comment twice.  I had presumed that somehow the forums had put my comment up twice the first time, and someone deleted it.  I will refrain from making back-to-back comments.  I have mostly been a forum lurker all my life, few times have I ever posted.   I will acclimate to the forum protocols.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Hawkido