Renarin's Blood Sickness

[Isla_Vezrian]

So I was thinking about the fact that Renarin, we know, is a Truthwatcher and so has the two surges of Illumination and Progression. From the interludes, we know that Lift can use the food she eats to surgebind and heal herself but if she uses it too much it makes her tired and weak. My theory is that Renarin is doing this unknowingly and using up his energy which may be why he apeares 'weak' or 'sickly'. What do you guys think??

[Blightsong]

15 minutes ago, Isla_Vezrian said:

So I was thinking about the fact that Renarin, we know, is a Truthwatcher and so has the two surges of Illumination and Progression. From the interludes, we know that Lift can use the food she eats to surgebind and heal herself but if she uses it too much it makes her tired and weak. My theory is that Renarin is doing this unknowingly and using up his energy which may be why he apeares 'weak' or 'sickly'. What do you guys think??

 Brandon has said that Lift is unique in that ability (probably from the Nightwatcher).

[Isla_Vezrian]

Yes! I think that's pretty cool and I can't wait to see what else he has in store!

[Spoolofwhool]

Doubtful. There's a clear difference between malnutrition and epilepsy and I doubt the Kholin doctors could've mistaken the two.

[CalaCrisp88]

Technically we don't know that arenarin is a Truthwatcher. Brandon has been incredibly reticent about what Glys looks like, and there are theories that he's a bad spren or something. I can't search for anything right now, but try searching for "glys" on here and see what comes up.

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said:

Technically we don't know that arenarin is a Truthwatcher. Brandon has been incredibly reticent about what Glys looks like, and there are theories that he's a bad spren or something. I can't search for anything right now, but try searching for "glys" on here and see what comes up.

But he did heal is nearsightedness with Stormlight, suggesting he truly is a Radiant, unless there is some kind of dark Nahel bond a human can form with a voidspren that also grants healing.

What's more curious is that his vision would be healed that way, but not his epilepsy. I guess because he's always been epileptic, but not always nearsighted? How long has it been since he had one of his spells, anyway?

[Spoolofwhool]

17 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said:

Technically we don't know that arenarin is a Truthwatcher. Brandon has been incredibly reticent about what Glys looks like, and there are theories that he's a bad spren or something. I can't search for anything right now, but try searching for "glys" on here and see what comes up.

Well, Renarin named himself as a Truthwatcher, which is the main source. Unless you have some reason to doubt him, I don't see why we shouldn't take it as fact for now.

[Krandacth]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

What's more curious is that his vision would be healed that way, but not his epilepsy. I guess because he's always been epileptic, but not always nearsighted? How long has it been since he had one of his spells, anyway?

There's no confirmed mention of him having one of his turns after stopping wearing glasses (outside of when holding his Shardblade, and we all know what Bonded people hear when holding one of those... Probably enough to make anyone freeze up, as if having an absent seizure). So his epilepsy probably is cured.

[CalaCrisp88]

On 2/8/2017 at 10:21 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Well, Renarin named himself as a Truthwatcher, which is the main source. Unless you have some reason to doubt him, I don't see why we shouldn't take it as fact for now.

Yes, we heard it from Renarin, but Renarin heard it from Glys. If Glys actually does turn out to be some deceitful dark spren or something, then Renarin's information may not be entirely trustworthy.

I'm somewhat undecided as to whether I believe this speculation, but it has some merit. We have already seen Truthwatcher spren, yet Brandon RAFO'd every question about Glys' appearance. If it turned out he didn't look like light reflected off a mirror (Is that right? Been a while since I read it), that would be a dead giveaway that Glys was lying about what he was.

[maxal]

6 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said:

Yes, we heard it from Renarin, but Renarin heard it from Glys. If Glys actually does turn out to be some deceitful dark spren or something, then Renarin's information may not be entirely trustworthy.

I'm somewhat undecided as to whether I believe this speculation, but it has some merit. We have already seen Truthwatcher spren, yet Brandon RAFO'd every question about Glys' appearance. If it turned out he didn't look like light reflected off a mirror (Is that right? Been a while since I read it), that would be a dead giveaway that Glys was lying about what he was.

I believe Brandon RAFOed the question with respect to Renarin's spren appearance because it would have gave Ym away as a Truthwatcher. For some reason which is still unknown to me, he didn't want to give this away just yet. I suspect it merely was because he felt the reveal, in Edgedancer, would be more powerful if we didn't know in advance.

I personally do not think Renarin is anything else than what he claims to be. The question which we should ask ourselves if whether or not his visions are part of the Truthwatcher powers.

Spoilers for Edgedancer below:

Spoiler

Seeing how neither the Stump nor Ym didn't seem to have plagued with them, I am currently thinking Renarin is both a Radiant and the unwilling recipient of... something else which might be evil or not. I can't say just yet. I however do think if all Truthwatchers had them, we would have caught a glimpse of them in either Ym and/or the Stump. If we are to believe Renarin, the visions are so terrible anyone would have been deeply affected or else Renarin is just amplifying something which isn't so terrible, but the former seems more probable than the later.

 

[Humpty]

Yeah I think you guys are reading way to much into BS RAFOing. What if BS just didnt want to answer what Glys looks like b/c he doesn't know yet and doesn't want to commit. You guys sound like those Grassy Knoll freaks living in a nuclear fallout selter. Smoke some weed and turn your brains to the low setting for a while

[Krandacth]

8 hours ago, Humpty said:

Yeah I think you guys are reading way to much into BS RAFOing. What if BS just didnt want to answer what Glys looks like b/c he doesn't know yet and doesn't want to commit. You guys sound like those Grassy Knoll freaks living in a nuclear fallout selter. Smoke some weed and turn your brains to the low setting for a while

The main issue is that he would definitely know what Gly looked like if he were a Truthwatcher spren: Ym uses the Surge of Regrowth and his Spren urges him, as far as I understood it, to Lightweave (something about "using light", and Ym says he "doesn't know how," immediately after using Stormlight for Regrowth; so the 'light' referred to by his spren must be a different kind of light; so Lightweaving).

That leaves either: wishing to keep people guessing about Ym's order until Edsgedancer (tenuous, the above understanding of Ym's interlude); or Glys being unexpectedly different from Ym's spren in some way.

[Yata]

@maxal you lifted a good point.

It's possible that Renarin is both a Truthwatcher and influenced by something else. For the simple sake of leave open more path,I developed this theory to try to fit the in-books event:

The idea is about Renarin's visions be caused by the Truthwatcher's Resonance. But "see the future" as Resonance is a bit "too much" compared with the others Resonance we know and with the Resonance's meaning at all. So the idea is the Truthwatcher didn't actual see the future for they own. They simply catch a glimpse of what other "Seer beings" see of the future. This mean a Truthwatcher can't see anything if there isn't someone's vision to "spy".

Why is this change relevant ? Because we know one of the Unmade uses the deadmen to fuel his future sight (and this create the Death Rattles)...so my point is:

Renarin recives this vision simply because the Unmade is "relative" near and Renarin simply exploit its effort to see the future.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Yata

[maxal]

7 hours ago, Yata said:

@maxal you lifted a good point.

It's possible that Renarin is both a Truthwatcher and influenced by something else. For the simple sake of leave open more path,I developed this theory to try to fit the in-books event:

The idea is about Renarin's visions be caused by the Truthwatcher's Resonance. But "see the future" as Resonance is a bit "too much" compared with the others Resonance we know and with the Resonance's meaning at all. So the idea is the Truthwatcher didn't actual see the future for they own. They simply catch a glimpse of what other "Seer beings" see of the future. This mean a Truthwatcher can't see anything if there isn't someone's vision to "spy".

Why is this change relevant ? Because we know one of the Unmade uses the deadmen to fuel his future sight (and this create the Death Rattles)...so my point is:

Renarin recives this vision simply because the Unmade is "relative" near and Renarin simply exploit its effort to see the future.

I have recently been re-thinking the Truthwatcher's order and since come with the conclusion their resonance might be the ability to tell truths from lies. Remember chapter 14 in WoR, the one where Renarin helps Adolin prepare himself for his first duel? Well, I always liked this chapter, for obvious reasons: not only is it one of the rare Adolin related viewpoints, but it also gave us marvelous insight on his character as she spoke to his Blade. Afterwards, there is this adorable brother/brother scene where we see them interacting which happens so rarely in the books. I realized recently I never truly looked at this scene from the Renarin angle, always from the Adolin one as, after all, isn't he the one telling the tale?

Well, in this chapter, right after helping his brother through his ritual, Renarin sees fit to question Adolin on his reasons for constantly aggravating his guards. Adolin merely responds he doesn't like to have minders which isn't the answer Renarin was looking for. It became obvious to me Renarin was trying to get his brother to admit he was holding onto a childish grudge towards Kaladin for having ordered him around on the battlefield. He warns his brother not to try to lie as he knows him too well: it wouldn't work. However, when Adolin tells him what we know is the truth, he mistrusts Kaladin he, but doesn't hold any grudges as he doesn't even remember being ordered around, Renarin allows him to go on, apparently satisfied with his answer.

Upon first glance, there is nothing wrong with Renarin's words except they don't completely add up to me. Renarin is autistic. The ability to tell a lie from a truth purely based on an individual's body language strikes to me as exactly the kind of endeavor an autistic person might have a hard time with. Even if he knows Adolin quite well, shouldn't Renarin have trouble differentiating genuine truth from outright lie?  

Still, it is a feeble argument, I agree, except I feel it gets stronger when we start comparing Renarin's behavior to Ym's. Ym was asking stories out of the children he healed, their stories, the truth. 

Spoiler for Edgedancer

Spoiler

The Stump is said to be able to tell which kid is lying from which one is genuine... so again, there is an element of "truth finding" about her character.

It is thus I have come to believe Renarin's specific ability, as a Truthwatcher, is to see the truth, a useful skill for one having his specific disability. I find it does correlate with your own wanting Renarin to be the unwilling recipient of "truths" emanating from other entities. He sees. Turns out he sees many things, but not all Truthwatchers see the same.

If I am right, then it also implies Renarin is highly likely to tell, very early on, that Adolin is withholding information... 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

@maxal Stump thought most kids were lying about their illnesses though because they got better. They were actually sick, but she was healing them so she clearly wasn't believing their truth.

[Darkness]

That also seems a little too close to the Skybreaker Resonance for me...

I'm leaning toward Truthwatchers having glimpses of one of the possible futures (like one shattered glass shard of a broken window). Doesn't seem too powerful to me if it's just one possibility among many. Also, I'd suggest that the reason Renarin really latched onto the Everstorm countdown was twofold. First it was a major event affecting everyone on Roshar, so it overpowered other event forecasts (tho is possibly the reason it also overpowered his mind and sent him into fits), and second it was statistically extremely likely to occur compared to other outcomes. I.e., it showed up in the most futures.

It just makes sense to me that Renarin's visions have to do with his Resonance. And of course I'm assuming that he's correct in calling himself Truthwatcher.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

I'm leaning toward Truthwatchers having glimpses of one of the possible futures (like one shattered glass shard of a broken window). Doesn't seem too powerful to me if it's just one possibility among many.

When I said that "visions" are "too much" for a Resonance, I don't mean in the usefulness context, but actual by the hidden Realmatic mechanics needed to allow this.

To "see the future" also only a glimpse...you need to exdend a bit in the Spiritual Realm, this is expensive for both a Investiture and Mental fortitude pow. A Resonance isn't fueled by raw investiture (Shallan have her Memory without need of Stormlight, Kal's squire the same and Skybreaker's one too) so future sight, much more a long term one...is a huge effect for a little Realmatic Quirk.

This is the reason for my theory, to try to reduce the "mechanics" needed to a Truthwatcher for have future-knowledge....of course mine may be wrong, it was just a possibility.

I just figure out that if my theory is true (or mostly true) a Truthwatcher may recive glimpe for future sight magic users too (imagine to be on Scadrial or First of the Sun)

EDIT:

This is aganist my theory but:
If the Truthwatcher have a link (also a weak one) with the Spiritual Realm, the place of perfection and truth...they may be able to feel a dissonance (pun) when someone lies.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Yata

[Isla_Vezrian]

7 hours ago, Darkness said:

That also seems a little too close to the Skybreaker Resonance for me...

I'm leaning toward Truthwatchers having glimpses of one of the possible futures (like one shattered glass shard of a broken window). Doesn't seem too powerful to me if it's just one possibility among many. Also, I'd suggest that the reason Renarin really latched onto the Everstorm countdown was twofold. First it was a major event affecting everyone on Roshar, so it overpowered other event forecasts (tho is possibly the reason it also overpowered his mind and sent him into fits), and second it was statistically extremely likely to occur compared to other outcomes. I.e., it showed up in the most futures.

It just makes sense to me that Renarin's visions have to do with his Resonance. And of course I'm assuming that he's correct in calling himself Truthwatcher.

I really like the idea that Renarin's 'fits' were of him having a vision or slight glimpse of the furture. His 'seizures cause him to lose control of his body, just like Dalinar was unable to control himself during his highstorm visions. While I don't think the visions are the same thing, I think they are related possibly both originating from a spren. Dalinar sees memories from the past, sent, as we know, by honor. Whereas Renarin sees glimpses of the future. But the important thing is that we know that very powerful spren have the ability to see something of what might happen in the future, just like Renarin does. I postulate that his spren is like a channel, allowing him to access a more powerful spren's ability to see the future. So it is not necessarily a voidspren or anything like that that is letting him see the future.

Edit: This could be wrong possibly because Renarin has always been epileptic, but as we have seen with Shallan, you can bond with a spren as a very young child. In this case, maybe binding with his spren(That he managed to keep secret all this time) is what caused his weakness and epilepsy. I don't know how much detail they go into about when or why they think he showed this blood sickness. It doesn't seem to run in the family as far as I know.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Isla_Vezrian

[Spoolofwhool]

@Isla_Vezrian Renarin doesn't have major fits like that. He said that it's generally just a weakening in a side of the body coupled with some twitching, if I'm recalling correctly. 

[Darkness]

true. I cringed even as I wrote 'fits'. I wasn't really referring to his epilepsy, I was trying to refer to his spastic drive to write prophecies. Like when he writes 0000000000000000000000 he seems to be in the throws of some kind of trance.

I understand what you're saying Yata, but I dont necessarily agree with it.

 

Sixth of the dusk doesn't need to use investiture to see the multiple future visions his aviar gives to him. I know it's not him generating the visions, but he is still the one seeing them... Another examples is Dalinar in highstorms. Could be a similar mechanic here (like a channel through the spren as isla is saying).

Also, many magics have interactions with the spiritual realm. You could argue that hemalurgy

is like a twisted, forced version of the Nahel bond: It changes your sdna on a fundamental level, replacing parts of your web with investiture and making you into something else.

Another example of reaching the spiritual realm without using investiture is our favorite mathematician ardents, who freeze the essence of a flame spren simply by recording a measurement.

My examples are obviously very different from looking from looking into the future, but I think it's definitely possible to reach into the spiritual realm to see enough to have a vision without using investiture... Dalinar does it... Kind of.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Darkness

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Darkness said:

Also, many magics have interactions with the spiritual realm. You could argue that hemalurgy is like a twisted, forced version of the Nahel bond: It changes your sdna on a fundamental level, replacing parts of your web with investiture and making you into something else.

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Hemalurgy replaces nothing. It just adds more pieces to your spiritweb. 

Presumably the nahel bond is similar, while at the same time less invasive. 

2 hours ago, Darkness said:

My examples are obviously very different from looking from looking into the future, but I think it's definitely possible to reach into the spiritual realm to see enough to have a vision without using investiture... Dalinar does it... Kind of.

Dalinar's example makes no sense. He wasn't looking at the future, he was just getting prerecorded visions. In addition, those visions were being given by a super-powerful investiture entity, so there's definitely a source of power for them to have occurred. 

The First of the Sun example was better, though please use spoilers on the information you state of external books. 

[Darkness]

re: Hemalurgy,

it staples foreign sdna to your spirit web, fundamentally changing it.

 The nahel bond changes your spirit web by filling the cracks with investiture. I think we both agree, but I expressed it poorly.

re:Dalinar, the point is that he was able to receive the visions (which I interpret as looking into the spiritual realm) without personally consuming investiture. Doesn't have to be the future, it's still penetrating realmatic borders. Dalinar probably wasn't the one initiating the penetration, but he was able to receive it. I'm just saying it's possible something similar is happening with Renarin.

re: First of the Sun... I did use spoiler tags. But if they didn't show up I blame the fact that I'm on my crem-poor phone, which is why I'm not even trying to multiquote or @people.

re: You personally, thank you for being kind and polite while disagreeing with me it's what I like most about this community and you are consistently pleasant to talk with.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Darkness

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

re:Dalinar, the point is that he was able to receive the visions (which I interpret as looking into the spiritual realm) without personally consuming investiture. Doesn't have to be the future, it's still penetrating realmatic borders. Dalinar probably wasn't the one initiating the penetration, but he was able to receive it. I'm just saying it's possible something similar is happening with Renarin.

The visions seem more cognitive than spiritual honestly. It's just the stormfather sticking a bunch of visions into his head. In any case, the point that Yata was making was not that person seeing a glimpse of the spiritual realm has to be consuming investiture, but that there has to be a consumption at some point. That's why the Dalinar argument doesn't work, since even if it is a glimpse into the spiritual realm, the Stormfather could be the one providing investiture, so we can't know if there is a consumption or not. In any case, what you're suggesting at the end with Renarin is exactly what Yata did suggest, that he's just receiving visions resulting from another entity peering into the spiritual realm, so I don't know why you're disagreeing.

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

re: First of the Sun... I did use spoiler tags. But if they didn't show up I blame the fact that I'm on my crem-poor phone, which is why I'm not even trying to multiquote or @people.

I was referring to mistborn details. The spoiler tags for First of the Sun are there, though it's usually easier if you actually label what the spoiler is for so people who have read the story know they can read it without fear. 

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

re: You personally, thank you for being kind and polite while disagreeing with me it's what I like most about this community and you are consistently pleasant to talk with.

Thank you.

[Darkness]

That's fair.

[Yata]

@Spoolofwhool actually get my point.

Honestly I considerated both Sixth of the Dusk, Allomancy and Dalinar's cases before I wrote the theory:

- Allomancy like we know require a constant stream of Investiture to work (and his future sight is strictly limited also with the Investiture provided)

- Sixth of the Dusk is the more troublesome, but you may see how this kind of visions are really a couple of seconds in the future (and we don't know if the Aviar tap Investiture from somewhere)

- Dalinar's ones like it was stated aren't actual a vision in the context we talk about. They are more like see a Coppermind, someone places his memories in another host and the host spreads them. Honor used his future-sight for a couple of them, but once he did...those 1-2 visions are memories like the others.

If I remember right, the Renarin's visions predicted the Everstome with more than 60 days of advance, this is some magnitude above all the cases we see it in the books, with a single exception.

Mistborn Secret History Spoiler:

Spoiler

Kelsier recived a long time vision from Preservation, there is stated the experience of see the Spiritual Realm could destroy his mind and Kelsier at that time was already less limited than a regular human (he can't die from the shock or from any physical reason), also after he recived the vision...He remember only to go to a specific direction nothing more.

PS: I am unsure if I did something like that, but I didn't want to be rude or anything like that

Edited February 14, 2017 by Yata